I switched to Lantus and am ready to home test Bucky

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Mr.Wheats

Mr.Wheats

Member Since 2010
Hi , my cat Bucky has been losing weight and having diarrhea so I took him to the vet. A couple of years ago he was diagnosed as diabetic and we had him on 1 unit of lantis twice a day. He was only on it for a relatively short time and went into remission. Anyways, it's back... the question I have is that we took him in friday andthe vet started him on 1 unit of vetsalin twice a day, he was ok with his first two doses but this morning I gave him his food and then his insulin about 5 min later. Two hours later he was lifting his right paw and then putting it down, I looked closer and his side was twitching so I assumed he was hypo, he was walking fine and acting normal but I was scared so I gave him a bit of caro and some food which he ate up right away. I am about to go buy a tester but if the numbers look good do I just skip it altogether? If he is starting out on 1 unit and I am not supposed to change the amount given before I see my vet again tomorrow, then what do I do - keep giving him the dose, skip it or give him less? Thanks for you help guys.
 
Re: Bucky's diabetic again

Get a test in and post your number, asking for advice. In general, we suggest that newbies do not shoot a preshot under 200. Wait 20 minutes without feeding and retest. If over 200, and you can monitor, you can shoot the usual dose or shoot a little less.
 
Re: Bucky's diabetic again

It's much harder to get a cat into remission a second time. you want one of the long lasting insulins like the Lantus you used last time.

Is there a reason the Vetsulin was prescribed this time? Vetsulin usually does not have very long duration is cats. Works well for dogs though.
 
Re: Bucky's diabetic again

It was a different vet last time. It stinks because vetsulin was just re-released and so I don't have many people to talk to about it I am not sure why he wants me to use vetsulin, maybe because I said I wanted it to be cheaper (it's only 42.00 for a vial of vetsulin and lantis is like 120.00). I do not have a tester yet... is it wise to start messing with the type and amount so early? I am assuming that the dose only has to be the same once their sugars stabilize?
 
Re: Bucky's diabetic again

Even after the BG's stablilze, the dose sometimes needs to be adjusted up or down. Cats are one of the few animals that can regenerate the beta cells in the pancreas and heal and start producing more of their own insulin.

If you have experience with the Lantus, why not ask your vet for that instead of the Vetsulin? You do own the cat after all, and it should be your decision.

If you cat did have a hypo, I would not give any insulin until your can home test. Skip the shot.

Where do you live? US? Canada? international?

We can suggest a good meter to get, with low cost test strips.
 
Re: Bucky's diabetic again

Florida, I saw the one everyone says is good from walmart. I will pick one up tonight and skip the shot.
Aren't the insulin shots supposed to be consistant so that the insulin builds up or no?
 
Re: Bucky's diabetic again

Mr.Wheats said:
Florida, I saw the one everyone says is good from walmart. I will pick one up tonight and skip the shot.
Aren't the insulin shots supposed to be consistant so that the insulin builds up or no?
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I don't know if there are many or any people using the new vetsulin, so I can only guess that's it's more like the old variety and like caninsulin or the PZI vet insulins where there is no buildup.

I think I would change the subject on your first post to ask if any are using the new Vetsulin... that way, if there are any around, they can look at your post, or if you wanted, just start a new post with a subject saying Looking for users of the new Vetsulin for help.

You wanted cheaper, but I don't think many will be able to help with details. Maybe when you have used it up, you can switch to Lantus? You get what you pay for, and the Lantus you get, get pens, will last much longer and help your cat much more.

No matter what happens, you do want to pick up a meter; the Relions are very economical. Because your cat has relapsed, or apparently so, you should continue testing even if Bucky goes off insulin again.
One of my cats has been off insulin since Jan2012, but he's still tested here and there to be sure his numbers stay non-diabetic.

Gayle
 
Re: Bucky's diabetic again

Aren't the insulin shots supposed to be consistant so that the insulin builds up or no?
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Only some insulins have a depot effect or buildup as you called it. Lantus and Levimir. None of the others do. They are what we refer to as" in and out" insulins. Once they are used up, they are gone and out of the system.

I don't know if there are many or any people using the new vetsulin, so I can only guess that's it's more like the old variety and like caninsulin or the PZI vet insulins where there is no buildup.
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There is no change in the 'new' vetsulin. Still the same as before. Only brought back to the market with improved quality control in the manufacturing process.

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=811353
http://www.vetsulin.com/PDF/Vetsulin-Feline-Conversion-Chart.pdf

Here is the old post from the Vetsulin/Caninsulin user forum http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=302 Since this was written 4 years ago, many more caregivers and vets have been using the better insulins like Lantus and Levimir.

Most everything I can find talks about how it was developed for dogs. So although it has been FDA approved for cats, the basic reason we do not use Vetsulin much in cats is because it's duration wasn't long enough with cats' more rapid metabolism compared with dogs.

Yes, there are a couple of new people on the board using Vetsulin but they are very inexperienced in the management of diabetes.

The one change that Merck made in the administration and dosing instructions was to thoroughly shake the vial to mix the insulin. No changes to the actual formulation were made.

I do understand that some people look at the lower upfront cost of insulins like Vetsulin and Novolin N. In my opinion, the lower cost is offset by the lower 20-30% remission rate in cats, and potential longer term costs of vet visits and diabetic supplies if your cat needs to stay on insulin for the rest of their life. Some of the longer duration insulins give a much higher chance of remission, from 70-90%. That is why they are recommended here.

Slideshow presentation by U of Q on the pros and cons of the various insulins here: http://www.uq.edu.au/vetschool/content/clinic-stlucia/feline-dm.pdf Here is a brief quote from the University of Queensland article on Vetsulin/Caninsulin
Good clinical but poor glycemic control in many cats
• Vetsulin/Caninsulin : Porcine, Lente
• Registered for Vet use – Europe legal
requirement that 1st insulin used
• Many cats good control of signs q12hr
• More accurate dosing
– 40 U/ml versus 100 U/ml
• More predictable than PZI
• In most cats has too short duration
for excellent glycemic control q12hrs
• Remission rates 20-30%
• 4th choice insulin for cats
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With a cat that has fallen out of remission, it is important that you get them back into control ASAP. IMHO, I would not choose Vetsulin to accomplish this.
 
Re: Bucky's diabetic again

Thanks guys. It's a bit more money but I talked to my vet and I'm switching to lantus today. I appreciate all of your help.
 
Re: Bucky's diabetic again

With proper storage, that vial of Lantus can last you 4-6 months if refrigerated.

Here is a post on handling the Lantus insulin for future reference.http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=151

There is also a Lantus savings card program that some members have used successfully for the Lantus Solostar pen. Never used it myself. Only $25 for the first six refills on the Solostar pen. I do believe the prescription needs to be written for the pens.

Link here: http://www.lantus.com/considering/save-on-lantus/default.aspx

Some pharmacies will sell the Solostar pens individually but you need to call around and find one that will do that.

If you can't find a pharmacy to sell the pens individually, they come in a box of 5 and can be stored long term in the fridge. You still need to use insulin syringes with the pens, because the dial a dose and/or pen tips are not accurate enough for those tiny doses our cats need.
 
Re: Bucky's diabetic again

My vet gave me the Lantus but I have the u-40 needles that I just bought three days ago so I want to use them instead of the u-100 ones that they prescribed. The vetsulin prescription was 1 unit and that was too much for him, switching over to lantus, should I do the 2 units they told me to do or should I give him 1 unit or less like I did with the vetsulin?

Also I just bought the tester, strips, lancets, and ketone strips Yay!
 
9 .8 lbs and I am using a u-40 needle instead of the u-100. How much is 1 unit of Lantus in a u-40 syringe?
 
You can't use U-40 needles with a U-100 insulin. You would be giving your cat an overdose. The barrel size on the U-40 syringes is much larger than with the U-100 insulin syringes.

Sorry, you will need to set aside those U-40 syringes and get some U-100 syringes. You want 3/10 cc U-100 syringes with 1/2 unit markings on the barrel

There is a conversion chart for using U-40 insulin with U-100 syringes.

A conservative starting dose of insulin uses this calculation. Ideal weight of cat or current weight if underweight in kilograms times 0.25U, rounded down to nearest quarter unit for ease of measuring.

9.8/2.2 = 4.45 kilos * 0.25U = 1.11 units rounded down = 1U insulin as a starting dose.
The vetsulin prescription was 1 unit and that was too much for him, switching over to lantus, should I do the 2 units they told me to do or should I give him 1 unit or less like I did with the vetsulin?
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Since the Vetsulin was too much at 1U, you may want to consider only giving 0.5U to start with the lantus. We hate new members to have to deal with a hypo right off the bat.

Do you have your hypo kit and instructions ready? Just checking.
 
Ok I bought the 100's. Its just easier this way I guess... I hope I am done spending money now for a while :)
 
Welcome! Great job on getting Bucky into remission the first time around :thumbup and here's to hoping he goes into remission a second time. :-D

Mr.Wheats said:
Ok I bought the 100's. Its just easier this way I guess... I hope I am done spending money now for a while :)
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You can offer up your u-40 syringes in our Supply Closet or even on a human diabetes forum so they don't go to waste. ;-)
 
I just opened the box of u-100 syringes they are in 2 unit increments, so that .5 unit is 1/4 of the first black mark? Seems hard to measure such a small amount.
 
Sorry, you will need to set aside those U-40 syringes and get some U-100 syringes. You want 3/10 cc U-100 syringes with 1/2 unit markings on the barrel
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did you get 1cc syringes instead of 3/10 cc syringes?
 
my vet had the box of these at cvs with my prescription. 1 ml cc up to 100 units... way to big.I have now spent 80.00 on two cases of syringes. :sad:
 
Check the box on the syringes for a phone number for Returns or Refunds. You might be able to return them to the manufacturer. It's worth at least calling them about it.
 
Didn't give the shot obviously due to the syringes but I did a test and he was 277. He ate 3/4 can FF this morning at 7am and 1/2 can at 3pm. I am going to start with lantus tomorrow night at 5 pm so that I can watch him and try getting a curve in the hours before bed time. I have to do his shots at 5 and 5 because of work. Bucky's first blood test wasn't that bad. cat_pet_icon
 
Welcome to the Vampire Club!
poke.gif
 
Walmart sells a box of 100 syringes for about $12-13 dollars. You may need to call around to make sure they have the syringes in stock. Another member recently had an issue with getting syringes at Walmart and had to try a couple of different locations to find them in stock. Worth a couple of phone calls ahead of time.

You want the Relion 3/10cc, 1/2 unit markings on the barrel, either 1/2" needle or the shorter 5/16" needle, 30 or 31 gauge. Needle length is a personal preference. Sometimes, the staff at the Walmart pharmacy, do not realize the syringes are marked with the 1/2 unit lines. They are but I suggest double checking the box before you head for home.

Syringes are also available mail order from various suppliers. Some people here like the Terumo 3/10 cc syringes with the 1/2Unit markings. Or BD makes a 3/10 cc syringe with 1/2 unit markings also. Our shopping partner, ADW carries these 2 brands of syringes. It can take a bit of time for them to arrive, depending on your shipping priority.

I do not know if you need a prescription in Florida to buy syringes. Didn't sound like it from your earlier posts.
 
Great job on the first test! You are over your biggest hurdle!

What kind of FF are you feeding? Low carb ones I hope? ie the pates

Also once you get the insulin started we can help with setting you up in a spreadsheet to track trends. The more we can do now the better as the window for remission is short.. now is the best chance if its going to happen at all.. and that will save you $ long term ;)

The lantus will take a few days to build up in his system so it will likely take a few days before you see any full affect of the insulin. We recommend you stay on the same dose for a week before changing. unless he drops under 50. Also as a newbie I wouldnt shoot under 200. Dont shoot, dont feed and come here and ask for help.

Wendy
 
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