Hungry all the time!!! Charlie is GA

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choc chick

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Hello all. What a great website, there is so much information here, its fantastic.

My cat Charlie, who is 15, was diagnosed with diabetes back in July (he also has arthritis for which I give him 3 units of Metacam every other day). He was initially treated with Glipizide tablets and two months later I started him on Insuvet Insulin. He currently has 3 units once a day at breakfast time. He was going to the vets once a week to have his BG tested but I have now been told that I dont have to take him back until December. This is so good for Charlie as he gets very stressed at the vets!

What I don't understand is why he is constantly asking for food. The vet is happy that he is regulated and always asks about his appetite. When I say that he is constantly hungry and always sat by his dish the vet just nods his head and then changes the subject. Charlie is fed three times a day (always has been) on wet pouches. At the moment he is having Whiskas Simply, both fish and meat. He clears his dish within minutes and then sits mewing for more. He has a habit of getting your attention by knocking the magnets off the fridge!

Surely, if his blood sugar is regulated he shouldn't be this hungry all the time? Unless, of course, there could be another reason? He still drinks quite a lot of water, especially if you dont give him any extra treats. He will have a drink instead. I do give him a few Go-Cat biscuits during the day (only about 8 at a time) because it breaks my heart that he thinks I dont care.

His back legs are also extremely bad, to which the vet says the Insulin could reverse it but no guarantee. He sometimes has to lie down to go to the toilet as his legs wont support him or he ends up sitting on his mess because he cant stay in a crouch position. He can only walk a few steps before he has to lie down to have a rest. I am thinking about this B12 but don't know if available here in UK from what others have said.

I look forward to hearing your views. Many thanks.
 
Re: Hungry all the time!!! (new UK user)

Hopefully someone who knows more about UK foods will be able to help more, but the hunger sounds more like you need to feed more. Before my cats were regulated, they were eating upwards of 30oz a day and 24oz a day. Now that they are regulated, they eat closer to 12oz and 6oz a day or thereabouts.
If the body in not capable of processing the foods, to extract the nutrients needed, you are going to have this hunger issue. You could try splitting the food into more meals a day - make it 6 meals from the 2 packs - or you could offer more food. Another thing you can do is to add water to the foods to make a soupy mixture - the water is needed and it will help to fill him up a bit. I can't comment on the treats, but maybe others can.

I don't know the insulin you are using, so I can't comment on it or the dose.

If your cat is drinking a great deal and is always hungry and the hind legs are having issues, I would not consider your cat as healthy and regulated and OK to wait till December for a visit.

I don't like the sounds of the metacam, I have it marked in my cats' files at the vet as something they are not allowed to give my cats. see below from another earlier post:
I'm pretty sure Metacam now [as of September 17th] has a Black Box warning see my post here:
viewtopi ... 99#p257199
Basically it should not be given to cats unless a one-time post-op scenario.

I bet the people in the PZI group here can help you with the insulin you are using - you could put it in your subject maybe to catch their eyes.

The B12 sounds like an excellent consideration, but again, I have no experience with it but others can help you with that area.

I do not take my cats to the vet for BG curves; I test at home which is a better way to be sure you keep Charlie as healthy as possible.
 
Re: Hungry all the time!!! (new UK user)

Hi there

There are lots of UK folks who can help with the specifics of your insulin as we don't use it here in Canada or USA, but I can tell you that it doesn't sound like your cat is at all regulated. Testing blood glucose levels at home is a much better, safer, cheaper and logical way to go about 'regulating' our cats, just like humans do. Human diabetics would never do what your vet is suggesting....

Please, read the FDMB faq for more information and then look up the petdiabetes wiki for information on your insulin. I think that it is the only insulin that can be given once a day....

Jen
 
Re: Hungry all the time!!! (new UK user INSUVET)

Thanks for your reply. Charlie has 3 pouches of food a day which contains 85g. I am very reluctant to give him any more in case his weight shoots up and puts more pressure on his poor legs. I have noticed that one of his legs seems to have no feeling in it at all. When he is lying down you could prod it and he wouldn't feel a thing. He has lost 2 kg since being diagnosed as diabetic. He used to weigh 6.7 kg, which is quite heavy I know, but he has a large frame and the vet never said he was overweight. With regards to the Metacam, Charlie has been on this since April last year when he was diagnosed with arthritis. He has regular blood tests to check his kidneys. When he first had this I did read all the scary stories from the web regarding this product but they all appeared to be related to Metacam for dogs. Charlie's Metacam is specifically for cats. The link you referred to does not appear to be working. Could you tell me which website you sourced it from?

With regards to home testing, it sounds a bit daunting having to take blood from your cat's ear. Does it hurt them? I know I was worried about giving Charlie his shots but have now mastered it. Are human kits the same as animal ones? I also notice from a lot of posts that the figures you quote for blood glucose is totally different to the ones that Charlie has been having at vets. I was told that anything above 10 wasn't good. Charlie started off at 14 and on his last visit he was tested at 8. I guess it must be measured differently in the States.

Many thanks.
 
Re: Hungry all the time!!! (new UK user INSUVET)

I'll respond inbetween your points

Thanks for your reply. Charlie has 3 pouches of food a day which contains 85g. I am very reluctant to give him any more in case his weight shoots up and puts more pressure on his poor legs. I have noticed that one of his legs seems to have no feeling in it at all. When he is lying down you could prod it and he wouldn't feel a thing.

This is diabetic neuropathy and can be reversed as he becomes better regulated. Or at least, it sounds like neuropathy. You should read Jasper's Site at http://www.laurieulrich.com/jasper/

With regards to the Metacam, Charlie has been on this since April last year when he was diagnosed with arthritis. He has regular blood tests to check his kidneys. When he first had this I did read all the scary stories from the web regarding this product but they all appeared to be related to Metacam for dogs. Charlie's Metacam is specifically for cats. The link you referred to does not appear to be working. Could you tell me which website you sourced it from?

Metacam here has strick warnings as it is not for repeated use. My Squeak uses it occassionally as he cannot use opiads like buprenex. My dog uses it long term but it is safer for dogs than for cats. The labelling might be different in North America vs the UK but I don't think that the actual drug is. Just to be safe, consider asking your vet about other options.

With regards to home testing, it sounds a bit daunting having to take blood from your cat's ear. Does it hurt them? I know I was worried about giving Charlie his shots but have now mastered it. Are human kits the same as animal ones? I also notice from a lot of posts that the figures you quote for blood glucose is totally different to the ones that Charlie has been having at vets. I was told that anything above 10 wasn't good. Charlie started off at 14 and on his last visit he was tested at 8. I guess it must be measured differently in the States.

Hometesting sounds scary as heck but it isn't. It is easy with the majority of cats and it doesn't hurt them, and it is really the best way to determine dose and to keep him safe. Think of it as if he were your human child; you would never inject a child without testing, nor should you with your cat.

To convert your numbers to US measurements, multiply by 18. The lowest you want him ever going is 2.5ish. Your numbers are actually quite low for a diabetic - 252 at diagnosis and 144. I strongly suggest that you need to be testing him given that he may be close to borderline...
Jen
 
Re: Hungry all the time!!! (new UK user INSUVET)

Hi There,

Yep you guessed it we do measure it differently here in the US. Although I don't remember what the conversion is right off hand. (still really early for me and not enough caffine).

But as far as home testing goes, it is very easy and doesn't hurt them at all. When we are first getting them and us use to it, we give them treats when we test. Cats are very smart and soon figure out that a little ear poke gets them a yummy treat. For my boy I give him freeze dried duck that he dearly loves, so it is worth it to him to get a minor poke in the ear to have that oh so yummy duck.

It probably hurts far less than the insulin shots and you have already seen that those don't bother Charlie. There are plenty of us here that can walk you through it, and we might even have someone near to you that can make a home visit to give you one on one help. But without home testing I would have never known my guy was ready to come off the insulin and could have possibly hurt him by giving him is shots blindly. Especially since I only recently adopted him as a diabetic and haven't really had much of a chance to get to know his personality, so it would have been very easy for me to miss him acting out of the normal.

You are probably going to have a ton of questions, just keep asking and someone here will have an answer. There is a wealth of practical experience here, not only on diabetes but just about anything else that can pop up concerning kitties. There is almost always someone around that have been there and dealt with that.

Again welcome to the FDMB family.
Mel
 
Re: Hungry all the time!!! (new UK user INSUVET)

it is very likely that charlie's hunger is because he is unregulated and if you can learn to home-test and therefore dose accurately, you will have taken a big step towards regulation which will make him less hungry. 3 pouches a day is probably more than average but they are 85g pouches not 100g as some are, so you may want to supplement those with a little fresh chicken or ham, maybe - anything low-carb.

as regards the arthritis and metacam, i was told by my vet that there are only contraindications if your cat already has kidney problems. having said that, i wouldn't really want to dose daily/indefinitely, given the stories i've heard. a better route may be to try a glucosamine supplement such as Seraquin for cats. pm me if you would like more info - i'm in the uk.

good luck
diana
 
Re: Hungry all the time!!! (new UK user INSUVET)

Thanks for all your comments they are much appreciated. I guess when you are home testing that any significant change is reported to your vet and they then advise what dose of insulin you should be giving? Do any of you increase/decrease the dose without doing this?

Charlie is also having Cortavet (a glucosamine supplement in spray form) for his arthritis.

If Charlie is borderline diabetic, as someone suggested, then should he be so hungry all the time? Could there be another reason? Thanks.
 
Re: Hungry all the time!!! (new UK user INSUVET)

Everyone's relationship with their vet is different. Some vets are full on supportive of hometesting and let the caregiver make decisions on dose with or without consultation; some vets are pretty dismissive of testing and may or may not provide advice; some vets 'forbid' hometesting and will not work with their clients. I think it is up to you to talk with your vet about this and see if you can find something that works for you, and if not, either go it on your own (with advice from this message board) or find another vet who will work with you. Many of us use a combination of vet advice, board advice, and our own gut feeling. The final thing on this is that you are the one with final responsibility for your pet's health, so if you feel strongly about a dose, then it is your final choice.

I'm not certain Charlie is borderline, on too high of a dose or on the right dose, I just know that those numbers are pretty good but neither you nor we know how his numbers look throughout the day. He could be hungry because of the diabetes if he's running high a lot of the time, or it could be other issues. WHen he was diagnosed, did he have a full set of blood tests done to rule out other issues?

Jen
 
Re: Hungry all the time!!! (new UK user INSUVET)

No, Charlie didn't have any blood tests done at diagnosis, it was purely from a urine sample. He recently had a fructosamine test sent off and I was told that the level of this was a little low so had to decrease his dose from 4 to 3 units a day. Apart from this, all the bloods taken at the vets have been tested on the BG machine.
 
Re: Hungry all the time!!! (new UK user INSUVET)

Ok, he should have had a fructosamine done at diagnosis along with a full blood panel to rule out any other issues. Sigh. Perhaps you could add that to your list of things to discuss with your vet?
 
Re: Hungry all the time!!! (new UK user INSUVET)

Thanks. I thought it was a bit strange to diagnose diabetes just from a urine sample. I need to discuss these issues with my husband and decide the next course of action. This has been a very stressful time for us and poor Charlie (going backwards and forwards to the vets). We just want whats best for our special boy and give him the quality of life he deserves! Afterall he is 15 and I think deserves to enjoy his old age. Definitely going to look into the B12.
 
Re: Hungry all the time!!! (new UK user INSUVET)

I'm so sorry to read about your Charlie.... I had my Charlie for over 18 years... the last 6-7 he received insuluin. I was terrified of the diagnosis... I too started him on Glipizide.... Then I found FDMB. It was explained very nicely that Glip can cause damage to their internal organs.... hence we went to insulin. I was so terrified of my first shot.... and within 1/2 an instant after giving it.... Charlie and I were laughing... (well maybe not Charlie) but it was so dang easy... WHY was I afraid....

Then people started talking about home testing...

1)So much more accurate, as Charlie is not all stressed out. He was less than fond of his vet visits.
Since Stress raises BG level (Blood Glucose)... his vet ordered units were really too many..

2.Heat his ear and then prick it... Not my boys' velvet ears.... Besides... Charlie had something called 'attitude' over here... I'm sure you understand.

3. You have control of the desease... Yes really... you feel capable of managing his shots, just as humans do.. they home test and adjust doses based on numbers... Humans do not call their doctors (I typed vets first)... :o Anyway... The board was here to help me... and then, finally I jumped out of the nest and flew on my own treating my special Charlie

I know you love him... As I still love the funny faced, chubby boy Charlie. No vet ever told me I could test at home... In fact his vet laughed and told me... I'd have such a hard time shooting him with insulin, he'd never let me test him. I switched vets..

I tested him and he didn't do anything... Okay, well he'd yell when I did... he'd do a low yell... but only when I did it... He like to lay guilt trips on me... He never yelled when I was sick for a few years and my hubby did the testing and shooting... I got better and started again... oh yeah... mommy's back.. I'll yell.

I digress... sorry. He even came to me at testing/feeding/shot time... He knew Blood test first, then food, and then the shot.... and when I first got sick... he'd hop into my lap for me to test and shoot..

Our vets do have us give the shots twice a day... approximately 12 hours apart... Cat's, unlike dogs and people, process the insulin twice as fast... thus after about 12 hours their insulin is no long there to help them feel better. We were told to start at one unit... twice a day (called BID dosage) to let that dose settle (or to let his body learn to use it properly)... Then to do a curve... Generally done on a week-end... test their blood prior to eating and shooting, then every two hours for the twelve hours... thus six tests worth of numbers... you will actually see how the insulin is working in his body. Thus... knowledge is power!! You will have control of keeping your baby's BG level... almost level...

I've dumped a lot on you. I just want you to know also, that within a month... and each day everything got easier.... It took 5-10 minutes... Test, feed, shoot... cuddle... cuddles were very important to my Charlie.

I hope you'll buy a human meter... don't spend a fortune on an animal one... they do the exact same thing... Then test him... I always sang to Charlie as I heated his ear with a hot water heated papertowel- wrung out and wrapped around his ear.... I'd kiss his soft fur, .... I miss him so very much....

ANYWAY... no tears. He lived a great life and if a blood clot had not gone to his brain. (from where it came, I have no knowledge)... but he left me cradled in my arms hearing his Charlie song... and feeling my kisses to his soft fur.....

Welcome to our FDMB Family to you and your Charlie... please kiss his little head for me.
 
Re: Hungry all the time!!! (new UK user INSUVET)

I can't believe I didn't say in all in that novel I wrote... But it does sound as if he's hungry all the time as his diabetes is not starting to regulate... and he is litterally starving.. your mention of his hind legs being weak and not working right... is part of the entire regulation problem. You've heard of diabetic humans that have sores on their feet that don't heal... "Diabetic Neuropathy"... in humans and in our dear cats. Once he starts on his two doses a day... this should all start to correct itself...

Chat with your vet and tell him you want his permission to change the shots... since you're down to 3 units. Tell him you'll be cutting that in half... and giving him 1.5 units in AM and 1.5 units in PM. Then explain that you'll be home testing Charlie's blood sugar... and if something looks strange, you'd like to call him to get his help. This makes the vet feel 'needed' and saves you a lot of money. My vet never charged me for phone calls, and even called me periodically to get an updated curve... no charge... We made decisions together on Charlie's treatment.

God Bless, sorry to be so long winded.
 
Saying 'Hello' from Essex

Welcome to the FDMB community. You will get all the support and advice that you need to care for Charlie and help him and yourself through the weeks that follow diagnosis. It can be an anxious time but please remember that we have all been through it.

A good food to feed Charlie is Butchers Classic. It is getting harder to find but all branches of Sainsburys stock it.

Hometesting ... It can be a lifesaver! I was really worried about hometesting and thought it it would hurt Sweepy but everythign was fine. A UK FDMB member visited me at home and helped me to get started. I was hometesting within 48 hours. You need to get a meter (A lot of use the One Touch Ultra). They are available from Boots the Chemist. You can find good deals on testing strips on eBay but make sure that you buy from a seller with good feedback rating.

I will send you my contact details by personal message. Please pick up the phone if I can help in any way. I'll be around most of the day tomorrow. If you live near to us then I will happily visit you and Charlie to get you started. If you are further away, I will try to put you in contact with a UK FDMB member closer to you. You will be fine with hometesting ... The last person that I visited at home was over 80 years old! She mastered hometesting and five years later her cat is in great health.

It would be helpful if you can post your approximate location in the UK (Town or city). Please don't post any specific contact details in open forum.

Hope to hear from you

Love
 
Re: Hungry all the time!!! (new UK user INSUVET)

Hi there, thank you all for your very useful information and offers of help.

Unfortunately Charlie had to go to the vets today because he stopped eating yesterday. I was told that he was severely dehydrated and needed to be admitted and have a drip and blood tests done. By lunch time I was told that he would need to be kept overnight and monitored very closely regarding his blood sugars.

Sadly I received a phonecall tonight to say that Charlie is very poorly with a urinary infection, blood in his urine, ketones and may have a possible tumour which in turn could be the cause of his diabetes. I won't know about the tumour until tomorrow afternoon when, hopefully, the vet will have the result of Charlie's ultrasound scan. The vet seemed to think that if the tumour was operated on then Charlie's diabetes may disappear. The only problem is his age (hes 15) and whether this, in fact, would be a fair procedure at his time of life. I am hoping he is wrong and that Charlie will be ok.

Myself, husband and son are all extremely upset as we thought we would be able to bring him home tomorrow. Being told he may have a possible tumour is a huge shock, we certainly didn't expect that bombshell. We are all going in to see Charlie tomorrow and give him a huge cuddle. I am hoping and praying that he will have greatly improved so we can bring him home where he belongs. :sad:
 
Re: Hungry all the time!!! (new UK user INSUVET)

Hang in there.

I had a non-diabetic cat make it to age 19, with hyperthyroidism, renal disease, and heart problems. So - more time may be possible. It really depends on if and what kind of tumor it is and whether it is localized or has spread.

DKA can be stabilized and brought down; there are others here who've had cats go through it and they can tell you more.
 
Re: Hungry all the time!!! (new UK user INSUVET)

Just wondering whether any of you have had an elderly cat operated on? Charlie is 15 and I don't know if its fair to put him through something like that at his age? Of course I want to do whats best for him and would love to give him a chance but I don't know if his body could cope with this. Its breaking my heart to even think of not giving him a chance but at the same time I don't want to put him through something which could make him worse.

I have just received a phone call from the vet hospital to say that Charlie is doing well. The vet seems to think that he may have transient diabetes (where it comes and goes because of another underlying problem) and has run more blood tests. Apparently his levels dropped very low and he is now on a glucose infusion. He is eating well. This sounds quite promising and I can hopefully have him home tomorrow - fingers crossed. Going in to see him later. :smile:
 
Re: Hungry all the time!!! (new UK user INSUVET)

Squeak is 14 on Halloween and I don't consider him elderly in the least and he'd like give me heck if I called him old! Yes, there are considerations around whether they are fit for anaesthesia but...
 
Re: Hungry all the time!!! (new UK user INSUVET)

Have been to visit Charlie this afternoon in hospital and was sad to see him as he looked very poorly. The vet told us that he is a lot better than yesterday as he had very high ketones which have now almost gone. They are still trying to stabilise him as his BG seems quite eratic. The vet said its difficult to regulate Charlie as he has a urinary infection which tends to send diabetes wayward. He is being started back on his insulin tonight so fingers crossed it will go ok and I can bring him home tomorrow. I really want him home so that he can have all the attention and love he deserves. I miss my special boy being here.
 
Re: Hungry all the time!!! (new UK user INSUVET)

Ketones are serious, diabetic ketoacidosis is even more serious, and it can take time to stabilize. There are a lot of things the vet needs to balance in treating these conditions so its expected that he looks kinda cr*ppy :( Fingers crossed that he is home soon.
 
Re: Hungry all the time!!! (new UK user INSUVET)

If he has to stay a little longer, you could take one of your smelly tee shirts for him to lay on. Then the place will smell more like home.
 
Re: Hungry all the time!!! (new UK user INSUVET)

Yes, I did think of that but didn't take any clothing in. I did take in his teddy and monkey that he likes to rest on. I got my son to take Charlie's teddy to bed last night so that it would have his scent on and remind Charlie of home. I do know that he needs to be regulated before he comes home and that he is in the best place, its just hard dealing with him not being here! Hopefully tomorrow will be a better day and Charlie will be feeling a bit better.
 
Re: Hungry all the time!!! (new UK user INSUVET)

Actually...

I hope your vet isn't trying to regulate him! He needs the ketones cleared from his system via fluids, he needs his electrolyte balance improved if they are whacky, he needs any infection treated, and he needs his blood glucose levels improved. But regulation takes time, at home, not at a clinic....
 
Re: Hungry all the time!!! (new UK user INSUVET)

Hi,
Sorry to hear you and Charlie have been having a rough time.
I see that some other Uk posters have given you some useful info already but I will add my penny's worth!
I feed Bozita or Animonda carny which I buy from Zooplus online. I did use Solgar MethylCobalamin B-12, and I have found the Freedom Freestyle Lite meter with the NEW style strips to be by far the easiest meter to use ( MUCH easier than the One Touch which I started with )
If you are anywhere near me---East London--- I can help you learn how to test at home.
Positive vibes for the next few days for Charlie.xx
 
Re: Hungry all the time!!! (new UK user INSUVET)

Had phonecall this morning to say that Charlie is now a lot brighter and eating well. His BG was 10 overnight and the same this morning. The vets aren't going to give him any insulin today and see what happens as they think he may be making enough himself. He is still on a drip and having oral antibiotics for the infection. I may be able to have him home tomorrow - cant wait! I just hope the same thing doesn't happen again, couldn't bear it. Am definitely going to discuss home testing when I go to pick him up and have lots more questions to ask. Just wondering whether he needed to be on insulin at all from the start. Charlie was never brought in for a curve when diagnosed and his BG numbers were never that high. I was told by the vet this morning that normal levels are between 10 and 12 and at diagnosis Charlie was only 13.2 (which was tested at the vets so probably stress could have elevated the numbers!) Whatever comes out of this, both myself and my husband will be more aware of Charlie's needs and will be watching him like a hawk. Thank you all for your support and kind words and HAPPY HALLOWEEN. cat_pet_icon
 
Sadly poor Charlie has gone!

Hi there,

Just to say that I lost poor Charlie yesterday and helped him on his way to a better place. I received the call yesterday morning to say that he had deteriorated and we needed to go and see him. The vet said that the tumour in his belly was the probable cause of his diabetes together with very bad weakness all over. He gave him 48 hours to live and we desperately wanted Charlie to come home but was told that he most probably would have a fit and most definitely would have just stayed where we put him. We couldn't bear the thought of him going through that . We all loved him so much and are going to miss him greatly. He was always there to greet me when I got in from work and so today was very hard coming home. I now have an empty house until my son and husband get in. I am going to miss being able to talk to him as of course he was always there to listen. My heart is broken and I just want to hold and cuddle him. My special boy Charlie will always be in my heart forever.

Thank you to all who gave advice it was much appreciated at the time. This is a great site. Linda.
 
Re: Hungry all the time!!! (new UK user INSUVET)

Oh Linda,

I am so sorry to hear you have lost Charlie. I hope it will help console you to know that you worked very hard to help him and that you loved him and he knew that. Kitties who live in homes where people care for them are so incredibly lucky, and I know he felt that every day.

Sue
 
Re: Hungry all the time!!! (new UK user INSUVET)

I am so sorry to read this and wish we coukd have helped more

Hugs

Jen
 
Linda, my deepest sympathy to you and your husband and son on the loss of your beloved Charlie. You did everything you could for him and he knew he was loved and you were there with him to help him on his way. I am so sad for all of you who loved him.
 
I'm so very sorry for your loss. At least you know you tried hard to save him, and that you helped him to not suffer in the end. Those are the 2 most important things we can do for our loved ones, try hard and know when to let go.
 
I am so sorry. Its so hard to be in that place where things are looking better and then all of sudden you have to make that aweful choice none of us want to. It sounds like you fought hard for Charlie and then let him go when he needed it.
 
My heart goes out to you and your household. Charlie is free, running and have a blast.

Until you hold each other again.. may you know he knew you did the best for him and he loves you. :)
 
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