How much food?

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Glassgoblin

Glassgoblin

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I've been following the test/feed/shot in the guide but my Jaxa is more of a grazer who won't eat a full can or much dry at any one time. I saw one post suggesting that as little as a tablespoon of food might be enough, but another asked if two cans, or 6oz, was still too little at shot time. How do I know if she eats enough before I give the shot? The only thing I can guarantee that she wants to eat a lot are her Friskies treat which are not good for her and we are trying to stop giving since they are not low carb or healthy. Is it okay to give a higher carb treat as we are starting, just to ensure she has some food in her then? How much food should she have at minimum? She is dieting, lost another 0.2# in the last week, but we are doing it the slow way.

This morning I added some tuna water to her wet food, microwave it for about 8 seconds, and she ate about a tablespoon, but that was all I could get into her.
 
Glassgoblin said:
I've been following the test/feed/shot in the guide but my Jaxa is more of a grazer who won't eat a full can or much dry at any one time. I saw one post suggesting that as little as a tablespoon of food might be enough, but another asked if two cans, or 6oz, was still too little at shot time. How do I know if she eats enough before I give the shot? The only thing I can guarantee that she wants to eat a lot are her Friskies treat which are not good for her and we are trying to stop giving since they are not low carb or healthy. Is it okay to give a higher carb treat as we are starting, just to ensure she has some food in her then? How much food should she have at minimum? She is dieting, lost another 0.2# in the last week, but we are doing it the slow way.

This morning I added some tuna water to her wet food, microwave it for about 8 seconds, and she ate about a tablespoon, but that was all I could get into her.
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My cat is a grazer too. As long as she seems to be feeling normal and takes a few bites I shoot. I leave the food out and she goes back to it when she wants.
 
If you're sure that Jaxa will eat, but on her own terms, she doesn't have to eat a lot before you give her insulin. ProZinc is slow-ish in onset so if she grazes a bit more in the 2 hours or so after the shot she should be OK.

Also - I think you'll find that just the switch to low carb wet food will slim her down slowly. Teasel's brother was a little heftier than ideal at Teasel's diagnosis. I switched him to the same low carb diet as Teasel and he shed a little over 2 lbs in a year.
 
My cat grazes too, and as Janet and Kris said, as long as he eats a few bites so I know he's feeling okay and willing to eat, that's enough. I give the shot and leave the food out.

If are trying to give less treats, I would suggest buying a replacement treat that is low carb and lock away the junk food in your hypo kit - only use in case of emergencies. Here are a bunch of good options:

Bonito flakes – these are sold in some grocery stores as a human food. They are tissue-paper thin bits of fish and are easy to sprinkle on food to get a kitty to eat, or put on a little plate and they will gobble them up. My kitties will take my fingers off if I don't let go fast enough. They last forever and are the cheapest option.

https://www.amazon.com/Kaneso-Tokuy...&qid=1516455184&sr=8-3&keywords=bonito+flakes

The next two are more expensive, but they are good quality and they are more what you would consider a typical treat – something your kitty can actually bite into:

https://www.amazon.com/CATMANDOO-Fr...atcorr&keywords=freeze+dried+salmon+cat+treat

https://www.amazon.com/CATMANDOO-Dr...r=1-6&keywords=freeze+dried+chicken+cat+treat

The next one is probably my personal favorites as they look like what they are. Sometime a little too much so though in the case of the chicken hearts. It is an actual dried heart. I usually have to cut them into a couple of pieces since they are a little bit big and hard for the cats to bite into on their own. They also have little minnows that are the whole fish. And a variety of other options. Often the dog treats are a bit cheaper, and since it’s a whole, dried protein, it doesn’t make any difference if you buy the cat or the dog versions.

https://www.amazon.com/Essentials-F...05&sr=1-4&keywords=vital+essential+cat+treats

As far as food, it's fine to leave out wet food for grazing. Cat food with a lot of carbs (anything over 10%) is the reason why cats gain weight. A cat on a low carb diet will generally reach a healthy weight (assuming there are no other health/mobility issues) without a lot of fuss or forced starvation. Carbs are also why you're seeing such high numbers for Jaxa, so as soon as you can get rid of that kibble she'll likely start losing weight and feeling better. Believe me I know how hard it is! My kitty was a committed kibble addict when he was diagnosed and it was hard to get him off of it. Now he's svelt and energetic and so much better off, but it has been a long road to get him here.

Finally, it looks like you're moving the dose around a fair amount. I would recommend picking a dose and sticking with it for a few days, then doing slow, systematic increases of 0.25u at a time every few days. We would be very happy to help you get that figured out if you'd like some guidance there. I know you were just asking about eating though, so don't want to get too far off topic. :)
 
Djamila said:
My cat grazes too, and as Janet and Kris said, as long as he eats a few bites so I know he's feeling okay and willing to eat, that's enough. I give the shot and leave the food out.

If are trying to give less treats, I would suggest buying a replacement treat that is low carb and lock away the junk food in your hypo kit - only use in case of emergencies. Here are a bunch of good options:

Bonito flakes – these are sold in some grocery stores as a human food. They are tissue-paper thin bits of fish and are easy to sprinkle on food to get a kitty to eat, or put on a little plate and they will gobble them up. My kitties will take my fingers off if I don't let go fast enough. They last forever and are the cheapest option.

https://www.amazon.com/Kaneso-Tokuyou-Hanakatsuo-Bonito-Flakes/dp/B0052BGLMS/ref=sr_1_3_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1516455184&sr=8-3&keywords=bonito flakes

The next two are more expensive, but they are good quality and they are more what you would consider a typical treat – something your kitty can actually bite into:

https://www.amazon.com/CATMANDOO-Freeze-Dried-Wild-Salmon/dp/B005FFHLUM/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1516455237&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=freeze dried salmon cat treat

https://www.amazon.com/CATMANDOO-Dried-Chicken-Pet-Treat/dp/B00II6TGV2/ref=sr_1_6?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1516455268&sr=1-6&keywords=freeze dried chicken cat treat

The next one is probably my personal favorites as they look like what they are. Sometime a little too much so though in the case of the chicken hearts. It is an actual dried heart. I usually have to cut them into a couple of pieces since they are a little bit big and hard for the cats to bite into on their own. They also have little minnows that are the whole fish. And a variety of other options. Often the dog treats are a bit cheaper, and since it’s a whole, dried protein, it doesn’t make any difference if you buy the cat or the dog versions.

https://www.amazon.com/Essentials-Freeze-Dried-Natural-Chicken/dp/B06XN61PYR/ref=sr_1_4?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1516457805&sr=1-4&keywords=vital essential cat treats

As far as food, it's fine to leave out wet food for grazing. Cat food with a lot of carbs (anything over 10%) is the reason why cats gain weight. A cat on a low carb diet will generally reach a healthy weight (assuming there are no other health/mobility issues) without a lot of fuss or forced starvation. Carbs are also why you're seeing such high numbers for Jaxa, so as soon as you can get rid of that kibble she'll likely start losing weight and feeling better. Believe me I know how hard it is! My kitty was a committed kibble addict when he was diagnosed and it was hard to get him off of it. Now he's svelt and energetic and so much better off, but it has been a long road to get him here.

Finally, it looks like you're moving the dose around a fair amount. I would recommend picking a dose and sticking with it for a few days, then doing slow, systematic increases of 0.25u at a time every few days. We would be very happy to help you get that figured out if you'd like some guidance there. I know you were just asking about eating though, so don't want to get too far off topic. :)
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I did buy some bonito flakes from my local pet store and a freeze-dried tuna treat but she hasn't shown any interest in either. We've been moving to Young Again food, they sent samples that she was willing to eat and the bag I ordered is on the way.

The dosing is a little wonky; the vet started us at 2u and then after her first vet appt wanted us to go to 3u. When I later posted that there were several comments telling me to go up to 3 slowly or just stay at 2.25 or 2.5, so I started second guessing. We were at the vet again 3/9 and they again said 3u, so now I think I need to stick with that and just test. We go into the vet again next Friday. All of her reds are when she was at the vet office for the test, but she has not been eating well this last week either with changing food, new meds and my stress probably isn't helping either. She seems okay this morning, ate some dry at +1 and I was going to test at +3. It has been one week as of today so it has been a bit of a rollercoaster for both of us, and this after treating for pancreatitis for three months or so.
 
I agree with you about sticking with 3u for now. As she switches to YAZ her insulin needs will likely decline a bit, so you'll really want to make sure you're testing during that transition to keep her safe. But for now I'm guessing the 3u will be okay. Any chance you could grab a test sometime between +5 and +7 today so we can have a better idea how she's responding to this dose?

YAZ often gives kitties the runs when they are transitioning, so be warned. :eek: You can also use the YAZ as treats and just feed the wet food as her main meals. What wet food are you using right now? Does she like it?

I'm so sorry to read that you've dealt with p-titis as well. That is the worst. It feels like more and more of our kitties are dealing with both issues. Or maybe I've just started paying attention to it more since my guy got it too. Is Jaxa doing okay now?

How can she not like bonito flakes?!?! Ah well, every cat is different! Does she generally like fish or chicken better? There are also freeze dried salmon treats that lots of cats love if they like fish. But non-fishy cats tend to go for the chicken more. One of my cats loooooves the salmon, the other one will only eat the chicken. I swear they coordinate with each other to make sure they always like the opposite in everything! :cat:
 
Djamila said:
I agree with you about sticking with 3u for now. As she switches to YAZ her insulin needs will likely decline a bit, so you'll really want to make sure you're testing during that transition to keep her safe. But for now I'm guessing the 3u will be okay. Any chance you could grab a test sometime between +5 and +7 today so we can have a better idea how she's responding to this dose?

YAZ often gives kitties the runs when they are transitioning, so be warned. :eek: You can also use the YAZ as treats and just feed the wet food as her main meals. What wet food are you using right now? Does she like it?

I'm so sorry to read that you've dealt with p-titis as well. That is the worst. It feels like more and more of our kitties are dealing with both issues. Or maybe I've just started paying attention to it more since my guy got it too. Is Jaxa doing okay now?

How can she not like bonito flakes?!?! Ah well, every cat is different! Does she generally like fish or chicken better? There are also freeze dried salmon treats that lots of cats love if they like fish. But non-fishy cats tend to go for the chicken more. One of my cats loooooves the salmon, the other one will only eat the chicken. I swear they coordinate with each other to make sure they always like the opposite in everything! :cat:
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I've got to update the spreadsheet with today's am and +3, but hopefully will be home all day so i can do more throughout the day.

I thought that she would love the fishy things because she had been wanting the seafood flavors more this last month. Most of her food was chicken flavored after I read about mercury issues in fish cat food years ago, but I can afford higher quality food for her than some of my kitties got a decade ago or more so I don't worry about that as much. It is hard to guess what she will want one week to the next and eight hr land I was just desperate to get her to eat anything some days.
 
P-titis definitely hits their appetite, and many folks have found that whatever they were eating when they got sick, they never want to eat again which can add to the food struggle. Have you tried fortiflora as a flavor enhancer. Sam loves it - I've often said he would eat a shoe if I sprinkled fortiflora on it first. Atticus couldn't care less about it. But most kitties around here will really go for it and it can help a ton with transitioning to healthy foods for our carb-addicted cats.

You can only buy it at vets or online. Here is a link: https://www.amazon.com/Purina-Forti...qid=1520695260&sr=8-1&keywords=fortiflora+cat
 
Djamila said:
P-titis definitely hits their appetite, and many folks have found that whatever they were eating when they got sick, they never want to eat again which can add to the food struggle. Have you tried fortiflora as a flavor enhancer. Sam loves it - I've often said he would eat a shoe if I sprinkled fortiflora on it first. Atticus couldn't care less about it. But most kitties around here will really go for it and it can help a ton with transitioning to healthy foods for our carb-addicted cats.

You can only buy it at vets or online. Here is a link: https://www.amazon.com/Purina-Fortiflora-Feline-Nutritional-Supplement/dp/B001650OE0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1520695260&sr=8-1&keywords=fortiflora cat
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The vet gave us a few packets of fortiflora probiotic when she first started getting sick in November but she wouldn't touch the food with it mixed on by the last packet. I switched to a different probiotic that is a chew, and crush it and add to wet food sometimes. Half of her supplements are wasted now though because I think they have sugar added, like phytomucil,or I just am not sure, like prozyme. I'm not even sure of the CBD oil so I haven't given it this last week; it is a hemp seed oil they say so I'm not sure what that means for carbs.
 
I don't think hemp has much in the way of carbs, if anything. You could probably ask where you bought it from.
 
Rachel said:
I don't think hemp has much in the way of carbs, if anything. You could probably ask where you bought it from.
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I think I might ask the company that produces it; the pet store we have locally is great in some ways for offering different healthier foods, treats and other products, but they have been pointing me at high carb foods just because they are labeled grain free so I'm not sure if I would trust their expertise on the subject.

She did have about 250 calories between 8pm Fri-8pm Sat, so that isn't too bad for her activity lvl and goal of 16 pounds (if we are using the lower scale of 15-20 calories per pound); She just ate a little more and I did a +3 from her PM shot. We've been doing regular tests today, but tomorrow might be more basic.
 
Looking at your mini-curve yesterday, it doesn't look like Jaxa is just bouncing. It looks like your dose range is just not quite enough for her. Do you work outside the house during the week? Or can you get mid-cycle tests during the week? I'm wondering how best to manage the dose increases for your schedule. On Prozinc, you can do dose increases every 3-6 cycles, but it is important to be able to get mid-cycle tests whenever you do an increase.
 
Djamila said:
Looking at your mini-curve yesterday, it doesn't look like Jaxa is just bouncing. It looks like your dose range is just not quite enough for her. Do you work outside the house during the week? Or can you get mid-cycle tests during the week? I'm wondering how best to manage the dose increases for your schedule. On Prozinc, you can do dose increases every 3-6 cycles, but it is important to be able to get mid-cycle tests whenever you do an increase.
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I need to learn this language- dose range= the amount of units in the shot, changing over time as dosages change? Sorry if I am not understanding.

Monday-Friday I am out of the house between 7:20am-5pm, mid-cycle is a little hard during day, and I have tried to do it at night but it really depends on how early I can get to sleep for where I will wake up the first time. I'm not sure about increasing any doses right now though; we are transitioning to the ZYA; she is eating the sample supplemented with other (wet) foods, and the bag should arrive this week. Then we go to the vet again on Friday. I don't trust my gut yet. I want to be able to trust my vet (I don't always, which is why we recently went back to our first clinic, but I want to be able to trust him).

I don't know how much her food schedule affects her numbers; she usually eats a small amount at shot time, but then eats more an hour later. However, when I'm gone during the day she is often shut out of the room with the food (or the dog will eat it) so I have to depend on my mother (who lives with me) letting her in an out of the room. My mother thinks I should euthanize because this is too much trouble and money, so I can't depend on her helping. Jaxa is used to eating right when I get home too, which has been difficult because that is right when her food should be put away for the two hours before the test/feed/shot cycle, and I can't confirm when the last time she ate before then would be on any given day that I am not home with her. I was wondering if I could feed her at 5pm when I get home, and then push the test cycle back half an hour, so we do a 7am, 7:30pm daily, but I haven't tried it yet as we are trying to normalize daylight savings changes.
 
Oh that's right! I forgot you have a food change coming up! Always good to remind us of things around here! Yes, I agree that you shouldn't increase the dose until the food transition is complete.

I should have just said "dose" not "dose range" Not sure what I was thinking there. I'm going to just blame that on the loss of an hour's sleep ;)

You could push the shot time back like you were suggesting. The other option would be to get a timed feeder. A lot of us use this one: https://www.amazon.com/PetSafe-Eatwell-5-Meal-Automatic-Feeder/dp/B000GEWHNS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1520777774&sr=8-1&keywords=timed pet feeder

Then Jaxa could have the feeder in her room and you could give her access to food throughout the day, then have it move to an empty slot two hours before shot time so you know she isn't getting any food during that window.

As far as the vet - I don't know that it's a matter of trusting them or not - I know my vet cares very much and is an important partner in caring for Sam, but I also know that he doesn't know nearly enough about feline diabetes to manage that condition in my cat. He got us started, but it's the great body of knowledge here that has really helped Sam to stay healthy through all of this time. So I occasionally update my vet on current dose and sometimes go in and ask him to run tests when it seems like some other health issue is going on, but I don't ask him to help with managing the diabetes. And he's great about that. He looks at how good Sam's overall health is, and looks at the data on the spreadsheet and knows that the approach I'm taking has had better results than the other diabetic cats in his practice. :smuggrin:
 
I hope I will get comfortable to do more of that; this last Friday they put her on amoxicillan and then didn't even explain why (that was after she had some vomiting in the morning. I don't mess around if there is a vomit/diarrhea combination, she goes to the vet.) I added her other regular/semi-regular meds to the signature too; not sure if it makes a difference to add our puppy as they only share a water fountain.

The feeder is something I will consider; I worry that she would nibble a little and not eat as much as I want her to eat at any given time, but added it to her Amazon wishlist so I can read about how it works to understand it better later.
 
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