Holy cow I got one!

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Yayyy! Mr. Jellybean gave you a sweet mother's day gift! I hope that gave you some relief, that you and Jellybean can get it done. Did you reward him with a treat after?

If you can before you go to sleep tonight, try to get one more reading. Its always good to get a reading before you go to bed just so you know how fast he is dropping. Im not sure at Vetsulin, but with Lantus, most of the time they drop to their lost numbers anywhere from 4 to 6 hours after their insulin.

You mentioned you're going to the vet this week. If you haven't looked up Lantus, please brief yourself on that insulin and talk to your vet about it.

Studies that have been done show that its the best insulin to give your cat in hopes to getting them in remission. Plus because its a slow acting and long duration insulin its safer to give compared to other insulin.

Not to add more reading to what you have already done, but it really is something worth looking into.

Some vets are old school and continue to use Vetsulin, but Lantus has been proven to be safer and works well in regulating kitties blood sugar and gives them the best chance of getting into remission.

If I already brought this up, sorry. Just a friendly reminder.
 
@Carriecae here is a link to a screen shot i just read from one of the members on here.

He was having a conversation with another member, but he talked a little about Vetsulin bc the member he was talking to must have been prescribed that for their kitty and he gave a list of names of people you can tag in your questions if you're ever in a pinch and need an answer soon.

As always the moderators and long term members qualified to give advice are all volunteers and have their own lives to live. So if you're ever in a worrisome situation and feel you need an answer asap and can't get one here, remember my advice to call a vet anywhere in your state. If its late at night, call a 24 hr animal hospital and let them know your situation.

Here is a link to the screenshot of the conversation with helpful information.

https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/5r8OBokXng6B

Here's a screen shot of a moderator giving another member her thoughts on Vetsulin

https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/wXzrRWnrjl2k
 
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i have it on my list tomorrow (to the vet) to bring up lantus....and a print out of diabetic neuropathy....and one of an appetite stimulant. the last vet tech scared me so bad with his leg weakness, that i was pretty sure i'd be putting him down tomorrow. after his fluctuating appetite over the weekend i still wasn't sure this wouldn't be happening. tonight i have hope again. @Mazi's Mom you've been a godsend to me this past couple of weeks. i've been trying SO hard, and all things failing...and i finally had a success. bless you.

and yes, the vets here are old school, iowa born and bred...but tomorrow we're changing a few things up and while i'm pretty sure i'll "upset" them all, i only want what's best for mr bean. he didn't get a low carb treat after his poking, but he did get head kisses and a "you are a superstar!" sung to him repeatedly. =)

cannot get another reading tonight, we're having thunderstorms and the cat has disappeared. but holy cow (sorry, iowa expression) i finally have hope this can be done. omg you can't imagine how much getting this actually done has contributed to my life goals. =) i know it's only once, but for a high stress person like me, it's the goal of a lifetime. =) we celebrated with popcorn and wine...lol.

thank you thank you thank you. tomorrow is another day.
 
I know how you feel about upsetting your vet, I had those feelings to when deciding to change Mazi's eating schedule. My vet only wanted me to feed Mazi two times a day b4 shot time and no snacking in between. I can't follow that schedule for one, when at work I need to feel he is going to be safe while home alone and when his insulin kicks in and his numbers go down to their lowest point (anywhere between hour 4 and 6 after shot) so I have to leave him something to snack on to prevent a hypoglycemic episode incase one decides to come on. No way can I focus at work while worrying that I am going to come home to a medical emergency or worse yet a dead family member. Plus, we would never tell a diabetic human to only eat twice a day at 12 hours apart without having a low carb snack in between.

A small snack after Mazis shot will help slow down the Insulin and will usually prevent a hypoglycemic episode. You never know when your kittys pancreas will start making more insulin on its own and the insulin youre injecting in him can then be too much. So a low carb snack within the first 6 hrs after the shot on Lantus will help make the insulin be more gently when bringing blood sugar numbers down.

Its just what I have to do to feel safe and keep mazi safe.

Plus he doesn't know yet that I changed his dose. My vet as of now and since i last spoke to him a few weeks ago still thinks I'm giving Mazi 0.5U when now im giving him 0.25U. Me and Wendy spoke and we thought it was a good idea to lower Mazis dose because his 0.5U was dropping his numbers too low.

Before I made the decision to reduce his dose, I had mentioned to my vet about dosing him at 0.25, but all he said was it would be hard to do bc syringes only come in whole unit and 0.5U marking and that I'd have to eyeball the doses,, which would make the doses in consistent. He didn't really give me a straight forward answer if he would support a 0.25U dose.

I do like my vet, and I believe he only wants the best for Mazi by only eating twice so he can have the tightest blood sugar control, but my vet isn't at my house babysitting Mazi when I am at work to make sure he is safe. So I have to do what I think is best. Giving mazi snacks has not made his diabetes any worse, his numbers are pretty good for a new diabetic.

I understand my vet wants consistent doses for Mazi, but mazi was having episodes of low blood sugar while on the 0.5U dose, what am I suppose to do, keep letting him go low. No I'm going to eyeball 0.25U everyday and try to be consistent as possible bc going low can cause a brain injury or death.

Sometimes you just have to grab the wheel. Wendy gave me great advice, she said, I hold the syringe and the spoon, I have the power to do whats best for Mazi. Unfortunately, my vet can't be here to monitor his blood sugars while I'm not home and can't be here to treat his hypoglycemic episodes and ensure safety. So I have to take the wheel, and I'm the one who ultimately makes the decision.

Its one thing if you're making bad decisions and putting your cat in harms way when you have control. But Mazi getting low carb snacks and lowering his dose is not causing any harm his numbers are within normal range 97% of the time. And my percentage is accurate, bc mazi has the Libre sensor on currently and it tells me the percentage of time he stays within the normal blood sugar range all day. Lol

I'm happy to help, Wendy and Diane held my hand in the beginning to help me understand some of the basics and helped me keep Mazi safe. I'm just happy to pay it forward. Plus I know how stressed and hyperfocused I was figuring everything out, so if I can make your life a little easier and help keep Jellybean safe that makes me happy.

BTW, if you haven't gotten to your vet visit yet, I wish I would have thought of this last night, but maybe you can ask your vet or vet tech to show you, give you tips, demonstrate, or practice once or twice taking Jellybeans blood sugar.

Best of luck to you and Jellybean today! Tell him I (Teri) said he did great yesterday and to be easy on his mama today!
 
I'm still learning too and still am worried. Not as worried or helpless as I was in March of this year, but shooting insulin still scares me in a cat that can't communicate or do what I ask..lol

Today I gave Mazi his insulin injection at the lowest number I have ever shot before..This morning I checked his sugar and it was 83 mg/dl and gave him his breakfast and gave him his shot. Luckily im home all day today to monitor him, so I'm literally check his blood sugar every 30 mins to an hour to make sure he doesn't drop too low. Thank God, he has his sensor on, so I dont have to poke him 2 times an hour. But I'm checking him very frequently and I have the medium/High carb cat food close and the Karo syrup in case he decides to give me a heart attack and drop too fast or too much.

The lowest number I've ever given him his insulin before at was 103, and he did good with that preshot number and had a safe cycle. But to me 83 and 103 is a big difference in preshot numbers when youre giving insulin as a beginner. But I have everything I need incase of an emergency so I'll be able to handle it if he goes low.

I take peeks at other people's spreadsheets and some people are comfortable giving insulin with a preshot glucose in the 60s and 50s. Im not quit there yet, but its pretty impressive. Lol
 
well, had the vet visit today, and it went 75% good. =) i showed her the article about diabetic neuropathy and she said hmm..she didn't know that. was i going to try it? i said yes, and she said let me know if it works, and i'll stock it. cool. i don't think they know how to take blood via the ear? both times they've just tested for blood sugar it's been from a front leg, although i did mention the ear and she nodded like she knew. maybe that's just quicker for them. anyways it was 240, 5 hours after insulin. and no, i couldn't get a reading this morning to compare it to. she also gave me some mirataz as i had said his appetite was off all weekend. i told her everything i could COUNT on jellybean eating, he wouldn't eat. he ate like a monster this morning and the rest of the day doesn't want any of it. she did say though if he won't eat, don't shoot.

i did also ask about the lantus, explaining about the 8-12 hours for cats, and she said something like that's all they really need is about 8 hours of it. dunno. but i figured i had grilled her enough and would save that battle for the next time. =) i said i hope i'm not being annoying, but i said with my last diabetic cat it was 2 years of pure torture and i didn't want to do that again. she said no, it's great to see someone take an actual interest in trying to help their cat. so many people just don't want to deal with it. well, frankly i don't want to either, but here we are. =)

how did mazi do with his blood sugar all day today? shooting at 83 had to have been scary.

thanks also for the 2 screenshots about vetsulin, i'll print those off to bring in next time. =)

the vet tech this time just simply wouldn't listen. i said if you let him roam around a little bit he'll calm down. nope, put him right on the scales then remarked on how huge his eyes were. (because he's terrified!) then they took the blood right away, with the tech holding her face next to the cats and the other tech tapping his head with one finger. =) they finally got the blood, got a huge hiss and even though i said he does bite, they both just stayed right next to his face. eventually they put him on the floor, then he calmed down and even laid down to chill.

oh and he's (somehow) gained .1 pound. yay. =)

the vet asked if i'd send her the numbers from mr bean every week so she could see where they were headed, so now i'll start my spreadsheet. and need to get more info to fill it in. jellybean has been asleep since i got home and gave him a cuddle, we've had a stressful day. =)

thanks again for all of your advice and help.
 
Hows Jellybean doing now that he's on the appetite stimulant?

I'm happy Jellybean was only in the 240s besides the scary 500/600's. Good job jellybean!

Lantus is an insulin that is also used in humans. Its duration of action in humans is 18 to 24 hours, hence why in human it is only given once a day, often at night.

Lantus is safe for cats and can be used. However, cats have faster metabolism than humans so when given to a cat it is used up in the blood, broken down by the liver, and excited out of the kidneys thru urine faster. Because Lantus is broken down faster in cats than humans, its duration of action in 12 to 16 hours. It is given to cats every 12 hours twice a day. There is a 4 hour overlap when giving the injections of 4 hours (16hr duration - 12 hrs when giving 2nd shot = 4 hr overlap). However those finally 4 hours most of the insulin has been broken down and the insulin is very weak or a low concentration of the 1st shot in the blood so when you give the 2nd shot, there's is very little risk of overdose or have too much insulin in the blood.

Plus if you take into count that a Lantus injection takes 2 hours to travel to the blood when injected in the fat, technically there's only a 2 hour overlap where both insulins are in the blood. So in other words dont be super concerned about the overlap.

Cats need more than 8 hours of insulin in there body a day for cells to function in the body. They need 24 hours of insulin in the body. In fact, in a healthy human and cat, even when we/they are not eating our pancreas is still releasing insulin into our blood stream. Not having any insulin or not enough causes the body to break down fat and protein to provide cells with energy. The result of broken down fat and protein bc it has to be used for energy bc not enough insulin results in weight loss, muscle loss, muscle weakness, and ketones which are deadly and toxic.

I'm shocked that your vetinarian said that cats only need 8 hr duration of insulin 2 times a day. That means there's 8 hours a day where the body is breaking down much needed fat, protein, muscle to provide energy to our body.

Carrie, I say this with the most respect for you, bc you don't know better you just think your getting advice from someone who knows what they're talking about and who knows how to treat diabetes. But with full respect, think about getting a new vet. What she said to you was dangerous. I seriously question, where she/he went to school and how she was able to earn her vetinarian license.

Carrie, I'm just a new grad nurse, but I seem to know more about treating diabetes than your vet. Thats scary, bc I still have a lot to learn. And im just a newbie, with very little practice experience. But I promise you I would never give you any advice I didn't feel confident about, bc I no way would I want to be responsible for Jellybean having a poor outcome in his health or getting injured.

I can tell even you have a bad gut feeling when asking her about the methyl B12. And not knowing how to take a Measurement from the ear. My vet and vet tech was the ones who taught me.

I hope they took blood work, a urine sample, and are looking into possible pancreatitis or GI disturbance like Inflammatory bowel syndrome, etc to find out why the WWE champ Jellybean is being so finicky with his food.

Its always a red flag when a cat doesn't eat. They can't communicate verbally, but loss of appetite is a red flag and their way of saying something is wrong.

Please keep me posted! Thinking about you and jellybean!
 
@Carrie
If you think Jellybean has diabetic neuropathy
You can give Methyl B-12
Doses he walk like a rabbit, on his hocks , back legs?
I used to give Tyler
https://www.vitacost.com/vitacost-vitamin-b-12-methylcobalamin-5000-mcg-60-capsules-5
the Vitacost brand another member told me about
Vitamin B-12 Methylcobalamin -- 5000 mcg - 100 Capsules

Same as Zobaline , but the Zobaline is so expensive as you know
This is the same thing
The only difference is the Zobaline has 200 mcgs of folic acid
So I bought the folic acid at the supermarket and crush it up and added it to the Vitacost brand
If you can't find the 200 mcg get the 400 mcg and cut it in half and crush it up and add it, some members didn't even add the folic acid and the neuropathy improved
The Vitacost brand is a capsule so just open it and pour the powder on the wet food
Has no taste, no need to crush it up, I still give it to Tyler every now and then and he has never tasted it in his food , I always add water to his food and just stir up the methyl B-12 good
I switched to the vitacost brand because the zobaline was too expensive,
Even though the vitacost brand is 5000 mcgs and the zobaline is 3000 mcgs
What they don't need they will pee out because it's water soluble.

The Zobaline is expensive for 60 pills, 30.00 some other places want 33.00
I used to use the Zobaline when I joined, then a member told me about the Vitacost brand .

It took about 2 months for Tyler to get back to walking normal, jumping on to the couch, running around
But every few weeks I did see a slight improvement
Some members didn't even add the folic acid to the vitacost brand and it still helped and the neuropathy was gone
 
Mazi's Mom said:
Hows Jellybean doing now that he's on the appetite stimulant?

I'm happy Jellybean was only in the 240s besides the scary 500/600's. Good job jellybean!

Lantus is an insulin that is also used in humans. Its duration of action in humans is 18 to 24 hours, hence why in human it is only given once a day, often at night.

Please keep me posted! Thinking about you and jellybean!
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jellybean started the appetite stimulant this morning, didn't notice it much until about 7pm when it seemed to kick in. oh and i'll be seeing another vet here soon...she's gone at the moment but when she comes back i'll make an appointment with her. =) the first vet is herself a diabetic, but yes, she is old school.

the last 3 nights mr bean has eaten fairly well after his shot, thank goodness. the mornings have always been good for eating, but bad for taking BG. =) we're slowly creeping up on the goods over the bads. i was going to start the methyl b12 tomorrow, but decided to wait another day or two as we just started with the appetite stuff. don't want to throw too much at once, and if he's eating better, then he'll get in more of the vitamin. I think, imho, that he's kinda down with the change of all of his foods, his legs being funky and his mom stabbing him and playing with his ears. yes, could be more, but his walking seems to upset him as he has to lay down a lot more than before and has more trouble jumping up.

the other vet should be back soon, so we'll see what she can do. she's on the state board of veterinarians so i'd believe her to be very good.

tried a new freeze dried chicken treat tonight, the first one went down like a house on fire, and the rest were just kind of licked and left in the bowl. =) will try something else.

and now this girl is getting herself ready for bed time, it's been a high stress day, and i think finding a good book might help me sleep tonight. thanks again teri for all of the helpful advice. we're in a better place (i think!) than we were a couple weeks ago! still learning new stuff daily!

carrie
 
Awesome, im happy Jellybean is eating more, thats a great sign. The change in appetite could even be due all the changes going on in his life right now. Cats are anxious little creatures. My other cat Bentley has high anxiety, its gotten better over the years tho. But that medication they gave you works well, Mazi was on it when he developed Pancreatitis a few years back and just recently when he was in the ICU for DKA and diabetes. Just an FYI, like a lot of medications if he's on it long term he can become tolerant of the medication and it becomes less effective.

I think waiting on the methyl b12 is fine, I get it, and youre right, poor little guy has gone thru so many changes and then today's visit to the vet more than likely stressed him out. Ive read peoples comments on this forum about who they give their cat the methyl B12 for their cats Neuropathy and it has improved the symptoms in alot of cats. I hope that is the case for Jellybean.

Mazi's blood sugar is normally in the 80s to 180s with insulin, however when I took him to the vet last Monday to have the Libre sensor placed he jumped up into the 300s for half the day. It wasn't even that crazy of an appointment, but they're so tiny and vulnerable strange places stress them out, strange people touching them, the car rides, etc. Fingers crossed on the finicky eating just has to do with stress. Just like when us humans get stressed we either over eat or under eat.

And no problem, I am very happy to help or give advice, or share my experience in hopes to make things easier for you and Jellybean. Sorry if I came off strong about the vet you seen today, but I'm just shocked she said that to you about the insulin. As you already know unregulated diabetes leads to complications like Neuropathy, kidney disease, poor wound healing, stroke, DKA, Hypoglycemia, seizures, blindness, brain injuries, amputations, coma, and death to name a few. I just don't want you to be taught incorrectly or for jellybean to go under treated bc some vets are still practicing using old and out dated evidence and practices. And are not keeping up with current evidence based studies and more modern treatment.

I was reading on here one of the moderators saying that vets are required to know about so many diseases, how to treat them, how to perform surgeries, etc. that they really don't get in an depth education on managing diabetes. Which isn't their fault but not keeping up with new evidence based practices are. As a little ol' nurse im required to complete continuing education every 2 years to keep up with new science and practices.

However, I am happy that your regular vet should know alot more about diabetes since she herself has diabetes. Cats and humans are different creatures, so I just hope she has a interest in diabetes in animals, since she has it and keeps up with current data.

My vet keeps up with current data, and encourages me to bring in research studies for him to review. But he still practices old school in a few ways. For example, he's a big advocate for treating feline diabetes with Lantus, which is current practice for many vets, however he has old school thinking, when he suggests I only feed Mazi twice a day with no snacking. Thats old school thinking. Cats are natural grazers. They should have 2 big meals a day and be allowed to graze or have small low carb snacks in between. Not to mention, small low carb snacks thru out the day helps ease the big glucose drops insulin can cause. Some days Mazi has 2 big drops. If you look at my spreadsheet some days he will have a big drop within the first two hours after having his meal and when the Lantus kicks in bc it has a 2 hr onset and then unpredictably and I dont know why, he will have another big drop towards the end of the cycle when there should only be very little insulin in his blood. Those 2nd late drops are unpredictable and could cause him to go really low and put him in danger but if I give him a snack thru out the day it will ease the drop/slow the decrease and keep him safe. So instead of dropping down to a glucose of 30/40 which is dangerous, he may only drop down to the 60s. Needless to say, when my vet tells me not to give mazi snacks I just say okay, knowing damn well im going to go home and give him a tsp or tbs of some low carb wet food.

Anyways, im rambling, but in my heart I just want all the animals and humans in this world to get the best care they/we deserve. I've been let down by our healthcare system many times too. Ive seen my family be on the other end of physicians making poor healthcare decisions for them or not paying attention to suble changes that ultimately lead to amputations and death for my mother and grandmother. But that's another topic for another day.

I'm happy that things are getting better day by day and that you are feeling better about things compared to last week and the week before. Treating and managing diabetes takes time, and I promise you and jellybean will in a better place with time. In 6 months, in a year, you will look back at these days and be like, I remember how hard those days were, but I never gave up and you will be so proud of yourself for what you have learned. There is so much to learn about diabetes. I thought going into this journey, I had a good understanding on how diabetes and insulin worked. But nope, I was wrong. Plus it makes me nervous bc cats are so unpredictable and can't communicate when they aren't feeling well. But this journey will make us both better caregivers and experts on diabetes and insulin.

This forum is a great resource. When youre bored, I like to read other people conversations on here, read their questions and what people are saying and what other kitties spreadsheets look like. I've learned a lot just by lurking...lol, I suggest when you're bored maybe come on here and lurk..haha!

Also, I know you're very busy, but try to prioritize making a spreadsheet its a great tool to use. Its not just for the moderators to see your cats glucose numbers. There's many benefits to having it and learning how to spot patterns, trends, bounces, record keeping for yourself and the vet, learning how jellybean responds to certain doses at specific times, how he responds to certain insulins, how he responds to certain foods, how to predict when jellybean will become hypoglycemic, document sick days with symptoms, weekly weights, water intake, bathroom patterns, behavior changes, etc. Knowing how jellybean reacts to insulin on certain doses when he only eats a certain amount of carbs can help you plan your days, the benefits are endless, I promise its a great and useful tool.

I'm rambling again! Okay, I hope you curled up with Jellybean and a good book and had a great night!
 
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Mazi's Mom said:
Awesome, im happy Jellybean is eating more, thats a great sign. The change in appetite could even be due all the changes going on in his life right now. Cats are anxious little creatures. My other cat Bentley has high anxiety, its gotten better over the years tho. But that medication they gave you works well, Mazi was on it when he developed Pancreatitis a few years back and just recently when he was in the ICU for DKA and diabetes. Just an FYI, like a lot of medications if he's on it long term he can become tolerant of the medication and it becomes less effective.

I'm rambling again! Okay, I hope you curled up with Jellybean and a good book and had a great night!
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we did curl up and read. he mostly purred. =) the appetite stimulant didn't work as well today. he ate his breakfast this morning, then as far as i can tell nothing else except dry food the rest of the day. i gave him his favorite fancy feast petite for supper when i got home. didn't want it. seemed very quiet and down. gave him 3 temptations (i know, i know) and then he ate almost the entire fancy feast. somehow temptations for him are an appetite stimulator. =) then he played on the floor with his toy for awhile, accepting pets and purring, then jumped into bed. yes, still trying to find a treat he likes that's better for him, tried a dried chicken something and he just licks it. won't actually eat it after having eaten just one. ordered 2 more kinds from amazon today that are crunchy, so we'll see if that works.

my cat is definitely a grazer. he very rarely finishes an entire dish of anything. i generally have 2-3 bowls of wet and a couple of dry (all low carb) sitting about during the day. usually when i get up in the morning i can see he's eaten them down quite a bit more. luckily my son has a bunch of feral cats so they get leftovers. win win.

the vet and vet techs i will now double check what they are saying. when the other vet gets back, i'll make an appointment with her, and see if she has a different view point. the other vets in town are large farm animal vets, and no i wouldn't expect them to be on top of "the latest news for diabetic cats" when their main focus is farm animals. there's other vets in another town near here, but it would be a one hour drive one way and i don't want to put jelly bean through that if i don't have to. he hates the carrier, the car ride and seems to only tolerate (mostly) the vet staff.

i think it's great you want to save all the animals....=) i am the same. i had a feral cat behind the restaurant i fed for years....the boss threatened me, the police, everyone. fed her til the day she died. completely untouchable, and somehow made it through repeated blizzards. still fed the cat during the blizzards as well.

yeah, i'm a lurker too. i just keep trying to stuff my brain full then process. learn something new almost every. single. day.

ok, off to catch up on laundry then get ready for our night feeding and shot. thanks teri and have a great night!

carrie
 
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