Hitting Dosing Wall with Caninsulin - What to Do Next?

[Critter Mom]

Hi all,

I have just had to skip a third dose of Caninsulin because Saoirse's numbers are too low to dose safely. Grrrrrrrrr!!!! The action profile of the insulin is getting in the way of her chances to improve further. I'm very frustrated at this disruption to her insulin therapy: she has been making so much progress and I don't want to disrupt that.

My 0.3ml BD Demi 100 IU syringes arrived late this morning, but with a pre-dose number of 7.7 at +36 since last insulin dose I did not want to try a 0.2 IU Caninsulin dose on a night time cycle. I'm exhausted and I know I can't last the night to monitor Saoirse through a drop of unknown magnitude so I need to err on the side of caution.

My vet wants to explore the possibility of prescribing a diluted formulation of Caninsulin, but Eliz kindly posted links on my previous thread about the problems associated with such an approach (viz. the diluted Caninsulin would not have the same action profile and would not have the same stability). His reasoning is that Saoirse has responded so well to Caninsulin and her new diet that he would prefer not to change horses mid-stream. I can understand this reasoning, but if the dilute Caninsulin becomes an unknown quantity, then it loses the current advantage it has over a different, more cat-appropriate insulin since there is no way of determining how Saoirse might respond to a less stable Caninsulin formulation. I wish Saoirse could have been put on a more cat-friendly insulin from the get-go but that's EU regulations for you. :YMSIGH:

Is there any thread on FDMB that has a comparison of the characteristics / pros and cons of the different insulin types? What can go wrong with a changeover from Caninsulin to another insulin? Would there be a "trial and error" period to find an insulin that suits Saoirse better? How might this affect her chances of achieving remission? So many questions. I want to go back to the vet prepared.

I'd really appreciate it if experienced members could have a look at Saoirse's spreadsheet numbers - especially for the last couple of days - and suggest any possible courses of action? It's so frustrating: her numbers are lower, but not low enough. I'm feeling kinda lost about what to do next ...
:dizcat

 

[BJM]

What happens if you don't give the insulin at all?
Does food cause a spike about +2 and then the pancreas kicks in to bring it down?

Maybe you're ready for an Off The Juice trial (OTJ).

 

[Elizabeth and Bertie]

Hi Aine,

Maybe you're ready for an Off The Juice trial (OTJ).

I'm also wondering if it's time for a remission (OTJ) trial....

And regarding Saorise's numbers, remember you're using an Alphatrak meter which reads higher than 'human' meters (and the numbers we typically reference here at FDMB are 'human meter' numbers.)

Your options would seem to be:
1.Microdosing with Caninsulin and U100 syringes (when BG high enough to warrant it).
2.Switching to a gentler insulin (you'd still be giving small doses but may not see those steep BG drops.)
3.Doing a remission (OTJ) trial.

What sort of issues does Saorise have with her digestion?
I'm wondering if it's also possible to try Saorise on a lower carb food than the one you're currently feeding. It is 'low carb' but maybe she'd tolerate a lower carb one...? I think the one you're feeding is about 6.9% calories from carbs (according to the label analysis). And there are lower carb foods out there. Two that spring to mind as being very low carb are Lily's Kitchen organic foil trays (available from supermarkets and online) and Granatapet (only available online). I can't recall their carb %'s but will look at that later today.

Eliz

 

[Elizabeth and Bertie]

Hi again, Aine,

Is there any thread on FDMB that has a comparison of the characteristics / pros and cons of the different insulin types? What can go wrong with a changeover from Caninsulin to another insulin? Would there be a "trial and error" period to find an insulin that suits Saoirse better? How might this affect her chances of achieving remission? So many questions. I want to go back to the vet prepared.

There is a saying here that 'the best insulin is the one that works best for your cat'. An insulin that works well for one cat may not be the best choice for another cat. So there would be, as you say, a "trial and error" period.

Typically, the gains of switching from Caninsulin to one of the longer lasting insulins would be a) that it reduces the liklihood of steep BG drops, and b) that it increases the duration (and therefore could keep numbers more stable). The latter would seem not to be particularly relevant in Saorise's case as she can hold her numbers really well, so the benefit you'd most likely gain is that the blood glucose wouldn't drop so steeply. It would be an experiment though.

Lantus and Levemir are 'depot' insulins (a proportion of the insulin is stored in the body and released over time). Folks here find that they work best if they are dosed consistently and given 12 hourly so that the depot remains as constant as possible.
Hypurin PZI has some depot properties but not the same as the 'L' insulins. The PZI insulins can be used more flexibly than the 'L' insulins in terms of varying the dosage and the time of the shot. PZI's can be particulary useful for cats that - for whatever reason - have erratic blood glucose levels, or whose needs are variable.

Were you to switch insulins, my best guess is that the PZI would suit Saorise better because it would give you a bit more flexibility (no problem if having to skip a few shots and then giving insulin again, and then skipping....etc...)
However, given Saorise's small (and decreasing) insulin requirements it may be better just to do a remission trial at this point and see if it's possible to bring her off insulin altogether...?

Eliz

 

[Critter Mom]

HI BJM and Eliz,

Sorry for tardy reply. Major PTSD concentration difficulties today (makes it very difficult to think / write).

What happens if you don't give the insulin at all?
Does food cause a spike about +2 and then the pancreas kicks in to bring it down?

There have been a couple of days since treatment started where Saoirse did not receive any insulin. She did have a "day off" after her first low BG test after switching to LC wet food (see spreadsheet data for 14-15 July). There was a 36-hour gap between doses and there were a couple of dips during that time but she was very inappetent.

This morning's dose was at +48 since previous insulin dose. She stayed relatively low for a while but started climbing again this morning (similar to pattern on previous "insulin holiday"). Looking at her numbers, there's a trend for higher AMPS and lower PMPS. Is this common?

Saoirse's PMPS was 7.4 but the drop after the 0.2 IU dose this morning was 4.5, so I'm withholding tonight's dose again (too dangerous). She had a good feed just after the test, so I'm going to follow your suggestion and see how her levels go over the next few hours. Will report back with data.

Is there a forum sticky post with the procedure for an OTJ trial? I'd like to see more green on Saoirse's spreadsheet before attempting a trial. I'd like her to have some time with the insulin supporting her pancreas so that whatever healing may be possible could take place before putting it under (potentially) unnecessary strain by going for a trial too early. That said, I fervently hope that it may not be too long before a trial will be in order. Fingers crossed ...

 

[BJM]

Maybe try drop dosing?

Drop method of dosing:
Practice by filling the syringe to the first non-zero mark using an easily visible liquid, such as coffee. Carefully squeeze out equal sized drops - you may find twisting the plunger helps - and repeat until you can get the same number of equal sized drops each time. Now, when you dose the insulin, you can discharge drops (into the sink) from the dose, based on your cat's response.

 

[Critter Mom]

What sort of issues does Saorise have with her digestion?
I'm wondering if it's also possible to try Saorise on a lower carb food than the one you're currently feeding. It is 'low carb' but maybe she'd tolerate a lower carb one...? I think the one you're feeding is about 6.9% calories from carbs (according to the label analysis). And there are lower carb foods out there. Two that spring to mind as being very low carb are Lily's Kitchen organic foil trays (available from supermarkets and online) and Granatapet (only available online). I can't recall their carb %'s but will look at that later today.

Eliz, I think the cause of the pancreatitis may well have been triggered by a digestive tract problem. Saoirse put on weight after being put on RC Urinary s/o Dry. She was then put on RC Obesity Management Dry. She had been overgrooming her tum, but a while back the vet said that the behaviour was probably boredom-related stress from becoming an indoor-only cat. With the agony of 20/20 hindsight, I think the recommended diet did the harm and probably caused the pancreatitis. My reasons for suspecting this are thus:

1. Since Saoirse switched to the low carb, species-appropriate food all the fur's growing back on her tummy. (And it's black! So much for the "rusty fur is to be expected in a senior cat" assertion. I'm so hacked off I could spit! :twisted: )

2. Saoirse is physically so much more relaxed and comfortable in her bearing and posture since switching to the Bozita Sensitive Diet & Stomach: no more 'uncomfy meatloaf' crouching. She's not showing any signs of being in pain now (except when she has nothing in her tummy and vomits - but the mini-meals have helped enormously with that cf. the twice-a-day feeding schedule prescribed by the vet at my previous practice).

Given point 2 above, I'm very reluctant to experiment at this point with Saoirse's diet. From a practical standpoint she will eat it fairly readily, but more importantly I think it's helping with the root underlying cause, namely gastro-intestinal distress. Her numbers have improved so much since switching to the Bozita Diet & Stomach formula supplemented with Purina Fortiflora.

I did try her on Om Nom Nom Chicken and Granatapet Duck and Chicken when I made the switch to LC wet. She didn't really like the former , but I think they were a bit too rich for her. She looked very uncomfortable after eating them. (The Granatapet D&C is 3.3% calories from carbs, btw.)

I've looked at Lily's Kitchen because I'd prefer to feed her GMO-free food, and LK foods are organic. I was put off by the heavy supplementation they include in their foods: too many unknowns for my comfort. Maybe while she's on the sensitive diet I might be able to source similar but with lower carbohydrates for the future.

Thanks for the info about the different insulins: very helpful!

 

[Critter Mom]

Maybe try drop dosing?

Thanks for the method, BJM. Could one maybe use a jeweller's digital scales (one that measures milligrammes) to weigh the drops?

BTW, I've done the mini-curve per your earlier suggestion. Here are Saoirse's numbers for this evening (Alphatrak 2):

7.4 (133) @ PMPS followed by 30g feed (+11.75 after last insulin dose). PM Caninsulin dose withheld on safety grounds.

8.4 (151) @ 1.5 hours after meal (+13.5 after last insulin dose)
7.6 (137) @ 2.0 hours after feed (+14 after last dose)
7.1 (128) @ 3.0 hours after feed (+15 after last dose)

Is that my little one's pancreas working? Or is it the last gasp of the previous insulin dose? :?

 

[Critter Mom]

PS...

I meant to ask earlier about whether any members only adminsiter Caninsulin once a day? I had scan of the AMPS and PMPS numbers on Saoirse's spreadsheet, and trendwise she tends to be higher on AMPS than on PMPS. Is that a normal trend, or is it cat-specific?

I also wonder whether this higher AMPS tendency might be due to hunger-related stress elevating her BG levels? I'm able to make sure her meals are spaced properly during the daytime cycle so that she doesn't get a tummy upset, but she doesn't have that support when I am asleep. I tried the pet feeder with her for a while. It worked fine when she was still on dry food (blyech!!) but she wouldn't eat the food I left out for her after the transition to LC wet.

Now that she's eating her meal during the night, I think I might try giving her a timed early morning feed for the next few days to see how that affects her AMPS values.

 

[BJM]

You experiment to find what works for your cat.

 

[Critter Mom]

I'm starting to realise that. I'm trying my best to 'listen' to Saoirse, so that she can guide me wordlessly towards the things that I can do to help her.

Thank you for your help and support, BJM. And you, too, Eliz. I am so grateful to you both for helping guide Saoirse and myself through this. It's scary enough as things are, but I shudder to think what it would be like if I had not found this wonderful community. And most importantly of all, Saoirse would not be doing anything like as well as she is without the FDMB.

 

[Elizabeth and Bertie]

Hi Aine,

Looking at her numbers, there's a trend for higher AMPS and lower PMPS. Is this common?

Sometimes - when a cat's pancreas is recovering - the AMPS can be higher than the PMPS if less food is eaten at night. Eating food stimulates the pancreas to work.

Is there a forum sticky post with the procedure for an OTJ trial?

There's not a sticky that I know of (though maybe there should be one..) but a member here, Deb&Wink, does often post remission trial instructions.
In principle though, the AMPS and PMPS tests continue (and it can still be helpful to get spot checks throughout the day to see how food affects the equation). It's best to feed mini meals- which you are already doing, I think? Feeding little and often stimulates the pancreas to work without overloading it with too much to do at any one time.
If a cat remains in normal numbers for 14 days then we consider that they are in remission.
Sometimes it's not a smooth glide into remission and the numbers will come up high enough at times to warrant a teensy insulin shot. Some people give tiny shots at pretty low preshot numbers during this stage, but this really depends on the cat, the insulin, and the care-givers's 'comfort level'. And we know that Saoirse can get steep drops with the Caninsulin...

Eliz

 

[Elizabeth and Bertie]

..Given point 2 above, I'm very reluctant to experiment at this point with Saoirse's diet.

Understood.
But if/when you do feel the need to try other foods then you might consider Nature's Menu adult pouches. Another UK member here, Diane (BaileyUK) has a diabetic kitty with pancreatitis and she finds that Nature's Menu suits him well (not the beef variety though). The food is made in the UK and the meat comes from DEFRA approved farms.

At Diane's suggestion I now also feed my kitties Nature's Menu, and it currently forms a large part of their food rotation. If you decide to experiment with that at some point then I could send you some pouches to try.

Diane also gives Bailey a form of Aloe juice for the pancreatitis and says she has found this helpful.

Edited to add: You may also find some useful info in Marje & Gracie's 'Primer on Pancreatitis' here:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=79693

Eliz

 

[BJM]

Here are some tips to stay OTJ (off-the-juice, insulin being the juice)

1. Never feed dry - not even treats. If you change wet food types, be 100% sure the new food is also low carb and same low carb % as your current food. Some cats are very carb sensitive and an increase from 3-6% to 8-10% can spike the BG’s. Don’t feed if you aren’t sure!
2. Weigh every 2 weeks to 1 month to watch for weight changes. Too much of a weight gain can cause loss of remission.
3. Measure blood once a week, indefinitely. You want to catch a relapse quickly. Some people only do checks every 2 weeks to a month.
4. No steroids or oral meds with sugar - remind your vet whenever giving you any medication. Always double check.
5. Monitor food intake, peeing and drinking. If increasing, a sign of losing remission.
6. Regular vet checks for infection such as dental , ear or UTI. And get them treated quick!

If your cat does fall out of remission you need to be more aggressive and resolve issues/ back on insulin as soon as possible as the window for a second remission is tight if any. Pancreatitis, hyperthyroid, dental issues are the most common reasons cats fall out of remission.

Hopefully your Carol can remain OTJ even eating that higher carb Blue Wilderness. Keeping our fingers and 3 sets of paws crossed for your continued success with being OTJ.

 

[Critter Mom]

HI Eliz,

Thanks for your posts. They are so helpful and informative.

Per the conversation with BJM last night, I tried the pet feeder again now that Saoirse is eating in the small hours without my coaxing. This morning, there was no moggie trying to wake me up because she was hungry. Her timed feeder dish was empty and she was really chilled out. Result? BG of a mere 7.7 (139) at +24. Needless to say, my stoirín's morning insulin was withheld again. Her sociability improved again today. No insulin-induced lethargy, just relaxed lazing around and snoozing (just as things should be! ). I checked her BG at +31 (AM +7 on today's line in her spreadsheet) and it was 7.6 (137). Her face is relaxed and her expression is open. She looks Y-E-A-R-S younger! A friend dropped in for his usual Friday lunchtime visit and he could not get over how glossy her coat is getting. \M/

I want to do everything I can to give my little Bonnie Munchkin the best chance for achieving remission. In light of this morning's readings, I thought long and hard about your post about trying to aid Saoirse's pancreas by feeding a lower carb food and your suggestion about seeking out some lower carb foods to try. I weighed up the prospect of problems with a new food vs. problems with a new insulin formulation. On reflection (and given Saoirse's numbers) the food option looks much more attractive (and would probably be gentler on Saoirse if it works). My criteria for her foods are :-

1. Low carbohydrate.
2. Suitable for sensitive digestive system.
3. Something she will eat (and preferably enjoy ... )
4. Ideally non-GMO (because of growing body of anecdotal and research-based evidence that they can be harmful to the digestive system).

Soooooo .... I went back to look at the nutrition profiles of the Lily's Kitchen range and managed to find two Lily's kitchen varieties for sensitive digestive systems that are hypoallergenic and herb-free. I don't know whether I've got my sums wrong, but according to the nutritional analysis listed on Zooplus, they are allegedly carb-free as well (if I've got the sums right in my food spreadsheet. :? ). I've ordered a few to see if she will take to them. Here are the two formulations that I have ordered:

Lily's Kitchen Organic Dinner for Kittens: Protein 10%, oil & fats 5.5%, ash 2.2%, fibre 0.3%, moisture 82.0%, calories 82kCal/100g.
Lily's Kitchen Organic Fish Dinner: Protein 10%, oil & fats 5.5%, ash 2.2%, fibre 0.3%, moisture 82.0%, calories 82kCal/100g.

I'm a bit wary of the fact that they contain carrageenan, but for the short term I hope that will be OK. The tinned chicken formula is also hypoallergenic and herb-free, and does not have carrageenan, but I'm worried it might be a bit rich for Saoirse (as was the Granatapet Duck & Chicken & Om Nom Nom Chicken, both of which Lúnasa enjoyed immensely!).

I've looked at Nature's Menu online. Ta oodles for the offer of the sample. Will PM you about it when we're a bit further along. Interesting about the aloe juice. I've taken it for IBS and it worked brilliantly but YE GODS! it tastes foul (blyech!). How on earth did Diane get her mog to take it?

(Apols for uber-long post, everybody. )

 

[BJM]

About your only other option will be making your own cooked or raw food.

There is a recipe at Cat Info for raw.

A veterinary school near you may have someone that does nutritional consults to guide you in a home cooked recipe. They do that at Ohio State University in Columbus, Ohio, USA, so another option would be having your vet consult with one there to come up with a recipe for you to use.

 

[Critter Mom]

Here are some tips to stay OTJ (off-the-juice, insulin being the juice)

Thank you for finding this for us! It's really helpful, especially the caveat about second remission.

Also, thank you for the advice on talking to the vet about asking for a referral to a feline nutrion specialist. I must admit I'd be fairly nervous about feeding Saoirse a raw diet. (The PTSD makes me feel that if something can go wrong it will go wrong for me, so I get very paranoid about things. :YMSIGH: ) That said, if there was no other way to help her I would face that fear head on; and if I ultimately failed to overcome the fear I would gladly force myself to live with it for Saoirse's sake.

 

[Critter Mom]

If a cat remains in normal numbers for 14 days then we consider that they are in remission ....

Sometimes it's not a smooth glide into remission and the numbers will come up high enough at times to warrant a teensy insulin shot. Some people give tiny shots at pretty low preshot numbers during this stage, but this really depends on the cat, the insulin, and the care-givers's 'comfort level'. And we know that Saoirse can get steep drops with the Caninsulin...

What would "normal numbers" be on an Alphatrak? I really don't want to mess this up (particularly after reading Deb & Wink's warning about the slimmer chances of second remission).

Saoirse's been off insulin again since yesterday's AM dose. Her numbers stayed fairly even throughout the first 24 hours but started rising again by +36 (PMPS number for 01.08.14) b-u-t ... they started dropping later in the evening, even though she continued to eat her mini meals. Is that a good sign?

I was planning to ask the vet tomorrow about whether or not it would be OK to give intermittent microdoses of Caninsulin if Saoirse's numbers spike on occasion.

 

[BJM]

Glucose Reference

[Glucose reference ranges are unsubstantiated and have been removed by Moderator]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *​

Examples of using the chart:

Ex. You are a new insulin user and you test your cat before giving insulin. The test is 300. It probably is safe to give insulin.

Ex. You are an established user of Lantus, following the Tight Regulation protocol. You've tested around +5 to +7 to spot the nadir. It is 200 mg/dL. You probably need to increase the dose, following the instructions for the protocol.

Ex. Your cat is acting funny. The eyes are a bit dilated. You are concerned and test the glucose. The number is 35 mg/dL. ACK! The cat may be in a hypoglycemic state. You quickly follow the HYPO protocol linked in the glucose reference values chart. (which we really, really, suggest you print out and post on your refrigerator.)

 

[Critter Mom]

Thanks, BJM! I now remember you posted that for me before. I feel like a right numpty. If I had brains I'd be dangerous ...

I'm printing it out this time. :smile:

 

[BJM]

After a while, it'll be come second nature for you due to repetition.

 

[Critter Mom]

Finally a constructive use for the OCD. ;-)

By the way, BJM, are the colour codings for the different BG ranges in the FDMB Spreadsheet based on human meter readings?

 

[Deb & Wink]

I really don't want to mess this up (particularly after reading Deb & Wink's warning about the slimmer chances of second remission).

A second remission is possible with some cats. There are some folks here that have managed to do that, with more aggressive dosing changes, that is not holding the dose for too long if the BG levels are high.

I've read some vet journal articles that talked about the difficulty of achieving that second remission. Don't remember which ones specifically.

 

[BJM]

...By the way, BJM, are the colour codings for the different BG ranges in the FDMB Spreadsheet based on human meter readings?

They appear to be based on human glucometer readings by 100 point increments. I split the 0 to 100 range to identify the under 50 mg/dL range more prominently for Gracie (spreadsheet not up to date).

The colors are assigned with conditional formatting, ie, assigning the format according to rules.

 

[Critter Mom]

Holding the dose? Does that mean they titrate to a different dose quite quickly?

 

[BJM]

Holding the dose? Does that mean they titrate to a different dose quite quickly?

Holding the dose means keeping it the same.

 

[Elizabeth and Bertie]

Hi Aine,

Lily's Kitchen Organic Dinner for Kittens:...Lily's Kitchen Organic Fish Dinner:
I'm a bit wary of the fact that they contain carrageenan, but for the short term I hope that will be OK.

Those two Lily's Kitchen foods are the two that I include in my own kitties' food rotation.
These are their favourites out of the flavours; but also - for commercial foods - they are nicely low in phosphorous (less of a strain on the kidneys of old kitties (mine are 15, 16 and 17)).
On my carb calculator they come out at 0.8 calories from carbs.
Like you I am wary of the use of carrageenan. And I don't like the price! But, that aside, there seems to be a lot going for this food.

I've tried the Lily's canned food too. Mine loved the first few cans but then turned their noses up after that! (Cats, eh?)

Keeping fingers crossed that Saorise likes the food, and that it doesn't upset her digestion. nailbite_smile

Eliz

 

[Critter Mom]

Thanks for your posts, BJM and Eliz. Sorry for taking so long to reply but it has been a tough day here. Ladyship was a mare to feed most of the day, and I'm not in great shape either.

Out of necessity after my accident I had to take Xanax for several years in order to keep my frameshop open plus Stilnoct (Ambien in the US) to help with getting sleep. I switched over to diazepam once it was clear that my condition was so chronic and severe that I would not be able to continue in business at all. I've been stuck on a low dose of diazepam for several years since (with occasional increases during more stressful times). Since Saoirse was diagnosed, I've had to stop taking the meds without tapering. Consequently my CNS is in shreds. I thought I was doing OK (apart from the ravening insomnia) but I awoke a few days ago to find I had developed stereophonic housemaid's knee overnight. (Goddess only knows what I was dreaming that night ... :shock: ). The muscles and joints in my hands and arms feel like they're on fire when I try to type, I feel like I'm on an Irish Sea ferry in a heavy swell and, to add insult to injury, last night the muscles around my left hip joint decided to get in on the act and now I can't walk properly. (A home visit from my GP is in order, methinks.)

My beloved Bonnie Munchkin has had another day without insulin. Considering that, her numbers have been relatively OK albeit above the optimum healing range ( grr_red ). She has been more sociable today than I don't know when and it lit my heart up to see her so much improved. The peak periods on Caninsulin hammered her for 8 hours, twice a day, even on the tiny doses. That's not the life I want for my little Babe: she deserves much, much better than that. ((Saoirse))

So exhausted. More tomorrow, all going well.

Blessings to ye for being there for us. So glad we're not alone with this.

 

[BJM]

OOPS! You should NEVER stop diazepam cold turkey - it can kill you with convulsions.

Please, please, please, take a nominal dose asap, then talk with your doctor about how to taper off of it safely. (I used to work on a drug abuse hotline.)

 

[Critter Mom]

Just checking in quickly. Was on very low dose of diazepam (I've used the Ashton protocol for years to manage titration down). Should have really taken token doses over the last while. It seems both Saoirse and myself still need microdoses of our respective medications. I took a ¼ tablet yestereve. We're both doing OK, but I've got severe psychomotor retardation after the increased stress of the last few weeks since Saoirse's diagnosis & my care providers messing me around a lot. Deep joy ...

 

[BJM]

Ok. Just so long as you are being safe. (this is your other mother!)

 

[Critter Mom]

Awww, BJM. Actually the position's vacant! :lol: (Thanks for making me giggle. I don't get many of 'em these days.)

I've taken some magnesium as a channel blocker and eaten a fair bit of protein today and that has helped. Got thinking cap on now ('bout time :roll: ). I've also put a call in to my GP about setting up a microdosing schedule to mitigate the worst of what's to come.

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

Hi Aine!

I've been reading your condo's but haven't stopped by to say "Hello" yet!

On your question about higher numbers at AMPS, there is something called Dawn Phenomenon that can help explain it.

That AMPS number is usually the last one to come down.

You might also want to check into the Feline Diabetic Remission Clinic at Royal Veterinary College. They're doing some testing on different treatments for diabetic cats in the UK. I don't know if they're still taking patients, but it might be worth a phone call!

 

[Critter Mom]

Hello to you too, Chris! :smile:

Thanks for the links. I'm tempted to give the RVC a ring, if only to find out more about when better insulins might become available for cats again.

I did write a longer reply but my login timed out and I lost it. (Waaaaahh!) Because of my health problems it takes a long time for me to write posts (concentration is extremely poor) and I'm too tired to try to type it again. Sorry!

BTW, what is "condo" on FDMB? I've only come across the word in the context of real estate.

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

A "condo" is just what we call our daily posts...it's short for "Condition Report" is what I've heard

It sure can't hurt to call! They were taking new patients not too long ago and they provided food and insulin!

 

[Elizabeth and Bertie]

...I'm tempted to give the RVC a ring, if only to find out more about when better insulins might become available for cats again.

Hi Aine,
It would be great if better insulins do become available soon. The Prozinc they're trialling (much used in the US but as yet unused in the UK) is doing well, so hopefully vets will be prescribing that here at some point...

The kitties that the RVC accept onto the trials are those that have 'uncomplicated' diabetes. So I'm not sure if they'd accept a kitty with pancreatitis... (Cassandra (SweetAngel) may well know more about it because her kitty is on the trial.) And in any case, there seems to be a fair possibility that your Saorise could be in remission soon anyway (touch-wood/anti-jinx)
I know you'd like her numbers to be lower but do remember that you're using an Alphatrak. (And in fact the lab that does my vet's blood test results states 8.3 as the top of the normal range for kitties...)

I'm sorry that you're still feeling so poorly.
I know that makes it difficult for you to type too. I hope that doesn't make you feel too cut off from things.
I'll PM you my phone number just in case you want to talk.

Sending healing well-wishes to you,

Eliz

 

[Elizabeth and Bertie]

A "condo" is just what we call our daily posts...it's short for "Condition Report" is what I've heard..

Oh, I've always wondered what 'condo' meant too! Thanks for that, Chris.

 

[Critter Mom]

A "condo" is just what we call our daily posts...it's short for "Condition Report" is what I've heard ...

OIC! The Brit equivalent would be an army term: SITREP (although a less polite version is sometimes used in the picture framing world when things ain't quite going according to plan ... ;-) ).

 

[Critter Mom]

The Prozinc they're trialling (much used in the US but as yet unused in the UK) is doing well, so hopefully vets will be prescribing that here at some point...

It's the "... at some point ..." bit that's the rub. Saoirse's window of opportunity is now.

The kitties that the RVC accept onto the trials are those that have 'uncomplicated' diabetes. So I'm not sure if they'd accept a kitty with pancreatitis...

My vet thought similarly.

... there seems to be a fair possibility that your Saoirse could be in remission soon anyway (touch-wood/anti-jinx). I know you'd like her numbers to be lower but do remember that you're using an Alphatrak. (And in fact the lab that does my vet's blood test results states 8.3 as the top of the normal range for kitties...)

If it were just the diabetes, I'd be a little more optimistic, but she really has slid back from where she was when she had some time at the lower numbers. WRT euglycaemic range, good spot out of you, Eliz! I made a booboo in my spreadsheet remarks. 8.3 is the upper boundary. From my research I've seen a figure of 7.8 for the pancreatic damage threshold (although there was mention of a study that detected damage at levels as low as 5.6) and I've obviously gotten me thresholds muddled up. (Twit! :roll

I'm sorry that you're still feeling so poorly. I know that makes it difficult for you to type too. I hope that doesn't make you feel too cut off from things.

Actually the last few weeks are the least cut-off I've been in years. Saoirse needs me and I've got to drag myself back into the land of the living for her. I could not have found a better place to poke my nose out the door than here (unless it was The Picture Framer's Grumble).

((Hugs))

 

[BaileyUK]

Hello from the north of UK.
Have just been reading your condo,it's good to see you are getting lots of good advise and support from this brilliant forum.
I see that your boy has pancreatitis,as Elizabeth mentioned in a past posting I have had really good results with aloe vera juice,it has to be a certain type of AV if you are interested let me know and I will give you the info.The results for my Bailey have been remarkable. Regards Diane

 

[Critter Mom]

HI Diane,

I agree that this forum is wonderful. I would feel very lost right now without this place and the amazing community here.

I'd be very grateful for any advice and experience you can share with me. And so would my ('hem) girl. :smile:

I've found aloe juice great for IBS myself, but I would not have thought in a month of really wet Sundays that it might help moggies.

Thank you so much for your post and your offer of help.

 

[BaileyUK]

I am so sorry for getting Saoirse's gender wrong! She has a beautiful name.
This time last year Bailey was suffering reoccuring bouts of pancreatitis,to the extent that his right side,where the pancreas lies was hard and swollen.He was given a ultrasound and this along with blood tests confirmed the diagnosis of chronic pancreatitis.I have a very experienced vet who spoke to Liverpool university (centre of excellence for animal research) to see if they had any experience with new treatments for feline panc.the answer was no,only to treat the symptoms.
I went to my local health store,the lady who runs it has homeopathic training (I was very sceptical about this but was desperate and willing to give anything a try so long as it was safe for Bailey) she said some of her customers were having good results taking aloe vera juice for digestive issues,and that she believed it was affective in treating panc.and that given the right type of A/V it could do him no harm,so in December I started him on the juice.the results have been quite remarkable,within three months the hard swelling had gone down,and up to now we have had no more flare ups of the dreaded panc. You have to be careful that it is the right type of A/V juice as the outer rind is toxic for cats,and some of the brands contain all the A/V.
The only brand I will buy is PUKKA Organic Aloe Vera Juice, cold pressed INNER LEAF gel,it is made from the inner leaf gel and MUST NOT contain any outer rind. It is free from synthetic preservative,and it does NOT contain potassium sorbate,sodium benzoate or ascorbic acid (I believe these last 3 ingredients are bad for cats) I started him off on1 teaspoon a day,and afterI was sure he was OK on it I upped it to 2 teaspoons a day.He has it mixed into his food,Bailey has a good appitite,so I have no problem with him taking it.also it doesn't taste too bad! If you have any questions just ask,I can only say that for my Bailey it has been a god send.

 

[Critter Mom]

I am so sorry for getting Saoirse's gender wrong! She has a beautiful name.

That's OK. She don't offend easy. :smile: Saoirse is Irish for 'freedom' (pron. Seeer-shuh). Her brother was called Amadán, Irish for 'fool.' (They were born on April 1st. :smile: )

Thanks so much for all the information about how well Bailey has done with the herbal treatment, and all the information on the right aloe juice. (Info going into Saoirse's scrapbook post haste.)

I am sorry to read how poorly Bailey was last year; and I am delighted for you both that you found something that helped him and that he is so much better for it. Go Bailey! \M/ Bailey's story gives me hope for my little one. As long as it's safe for her, I'm willing to explore all possible treatment options as needed. It destroys me inside to see her in pain.

I'm glad you mentioned the swelling, BTW, as sometimes I think that Saoirse's abdomen sometimes looks as though the right side sticks out a little bit more on the right-hand side, but I could not be sure whether or not I might be imagining it. I know now to keep an eye out for changes (hopefully positive ones).

When things settle down for Saoirse, I'm going to have a word with my vet about the aloe juice. I want to have his involvement and support in all aspects of her treatment. I'm really glad that i have personal experience of how incredibly effective aloe can be as a treatment for digestive problems to share with him. (Could really do with a course of it myself ... )