High #s Past Few Days - Should I be Concerned?

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Erica & Carter

Erica & Carter

Member Since 2016
Hey guys,

If you take a look at my spreadsheet you can see what I mean.

My Lantus will be arriving next week but this Vetsulin is driving me NUTS. Last week when I switched over his canned food is caused a lower drop in BG/less dosing of insulin, so it dropped down the insulin dose significantly (even having to skip one dose) due to low PMPS's. AMPS however have been consistently high. The only time his numbers are low are at his nadir, usually +5.

Now it looks like his food has done all it can do while he's on this insulin, so he's back up to 3 units and I don't know if that's sufficient. 3 units usually drops him from the 500s down to the low 100s by +5 so I'm afraid to do 4 units in fear it'll drop him close to the danger zone. I'm really feeling like there is no way to adjust the dose any further and that even on 4 units he would still end up spiking to the same numbers by AMPS and PMPS.

I worry about his numbers being so high but I know a lot of people that use Vetsulin have said that it's pretty common for the AMPS and PMPS to be high because of the duration of the insulin.

Should I be worried about Ketones because of the high numbers or no because the numbers are more reflective of a bounce?

I have some test strips I bought from Wal-Mart but with 3 cats it's hard to catch Carter in the litterbox at the right time to test.

He doesn't have any symptoms though. I've been home the past 5 days straight and he drinks a "normal" amount (before he would literally live at the water-dish) and his pees are a little larger than average but he only pees like twice maybe 3 times a day.

He's acting fine. No vomiting, full appetite, full of energy, etc.

Thoughts?
 
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4/10 was the last entry, what are the numbers for the rest of the days? i had vetinsulin for my cat for a couple of weeks until i got the lantus and his numbers were all over the place. i kept shooting the vetinsulin until the lantus arrived. i would stay at 3 units.
 
scoobydoox said:
4/10 was the last entry, what are the numbers for the rest of the days? i had vetinsulin for my cat for a couple of weeks until i got the lantus and his numbers were all over the place. i kept shooting the vetinsulin until the lantus arrived. i would stay at 3 units.
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There's another tab at the top of the Spreadhseet for my Relion Confirm readings that start after that date. The readings you're seeing were for my Alpha Trak 2. Sorry I switched it around so you should be able to see that one first now.

I think I will stay at 3 it just sucks, seems like it's barely helping. It boggles my mind how veternarians think this is a good insulin to perscribe cats.
 
ECID (each cat is different) Carter is getting poor results for Vetsulin but many gets get better performance.
From your SS, 3 units seems to be about the best yo can get, With those high PS BGs I would be testing for the urine for ketones.
 
Larry and Kitties said:
ECID (each cat is different) Carter is getting poor results for Vetsulin but many gets get better performance.
From your SS, 3 units seems to be about the best yo can get, With those high PS BGs I would be testing for the urine for ketones.
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So he could have ketones even though he's not displaying any symptoms?
Does the urine have to be free-catch or can I dab the strip against the spot where he urinates to pick some of it up? or would the litter contimate that?

I'll see if I can catch some at some point today.

I just feel like I can't read Vetsulin very well because it is producing poor results and creating too much of a bounce.
 
When a cat has symptoms of ketones then vet care is required.
A free catch is best. A puddle of urine in the litter is fine. Sticking the strip in moist litter is iffy.
 
Larry and Kitties said:
When a cat has symptoms of ketones then vet care is required.
A free catch is best. A puddle of urine in the litter is fine. Sticking the strip in moist litter is iffy.
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So symptoms are only displayed when ketones are more than just a trace and require vet care?

If he has Ketones (trace) what is typically the method of treatment?
 
Some use a clean soup ladel and slip under kitty when urinating. I have a small finger bowl that I use. Trick is to catch them when they go. Good luck!
 
Shoeskitty said:
Some use a clean soup ladel and slip under kitty when urinating. I have a small finger bowl that I use. Trick is to catch them when they go. Good luck!
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I'm in the bathroom with him right now seeing if he'll go because I don't think he has since I cleaned it a few hours ago. I have a large spoon because he squats so low I don't think anything else could fit.
 
Shoeskitty said:
That will work! Hope he goes for you!
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Right now he's more interested in being pet.

If he has trace what is my next course of action?
If it's more than trace, do I call and vet immediately to get him in? I don't have the car today so I'd have to get ahold of my spouse to leave work and come get us.
 
Typically a trace amount f ketones is manageable at home but I would call your vet. Anything higher than a trace requires vet treatment.
Also, when reading the dipstick make sure that you read it at the time specified o the package of strips. If your read it later the strips darken/indicate more ketones. Also, frequently it is difficult to tell the difference between no ketones from trace ketones because the with trace they is very little coloring.
 
Larry and Kitties said:
Typically a trace amount f ketones is manageable at home but I would call your vet. Anything higher than a trace requires vet treatment.
Also, when reading the dipstick make sure that you read it at the time specified o the package of strips. If your read it later the strips darken/indicate more ketones. Also, frequently it is difficult to tell the difference between no ketones from trace ketones because the with trace they is very little coloring.
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I believe he is negative. I attached a picture.

Yeah I read where the instructions it says after 15 seconds to take it out and compare. :)

Phew! I'm relieved.

Until I get him regulated on Lantus I'm going to try and do one of these at least once a day.

How do you manage trace Ketones at home?
 

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Erica & Carter said:
I believe he is negative. I attached a picture.
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Looks negative to me too!!

Here are some other Urine Testing Tips you can try

IF he were to develop ketones, as long as it's not above "trace", it can usually be handled at home with extra fluids...even just syringing extra water and adding water to his food will help flush the ketones out if you don't have fluids available

Fluids can lower the BG, but what they're used for in ketones is to flush the "poison" out of the bloodstream
 
Larry and Kitties said:
I would call your vet. I would try to better control BGs and give sub-Q fluids
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My actual vet is out of town she won't be back until Monday, she has a horribly rude locum doctor there right now who knows less than nothing about feline diabetes. Self-proclaimed, too.

I could try and ask for a bag of fluids but this guy doesn't like to prescribe anything when he's just there for a day. Would fluids be a bit of an extra buffer? Does that help lower BG? I'm familiar with giving fluids but more in the sense for hydration, however I read that it flushes out the urine too? Although he doesn't appear to have any ketones in his urine currently. I wouldn't be able to pick up a bag of fluids until next week though. I'm without a car today unless it was an emergency.

In general he's drinking normally, his gums are pink and his skin bounces back instantly when pinched so I don't think he's dehydrated at all?
 
Chris & China said:
Looks negative to me too!!

Here are some other Urine Testing Tips you can try

IF he were to develop ketones, as long as it's not above "trace", it can usually be handled at home with extra fluids...even just syringing extra water and adding water to his food will help flush the ketones out if you don't have fluids available

Fluids can lower the BG, but what they're used for in ketones is to flush the "poison" out of the bloodstream
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Gotcha. But if he doesn't have any ketones currently (and I continue to test daily until I get on the Lantus) would he still need the fluids if there is no poison to flush out?

I'm just asking because by the time I would be able to get a bag of fluids (like beginning of next week, since I'm stranded without a car today and they are closed on the weekend, and that locum Dr. doesn't like to give anything to anyone etc) my Lantus will have arrived.

Unless he's just full of it and you can just walk in and purchase a bag of fluids? I mean it wouldn't hurt to have a bag on hand but I would unfortunately have to wait until after the weekend.
 
As long as he stays ketone free, you wouldn't need the fluids

You can get fluids from any pharmacy, but of course you have to have a script. As long as you're checking daily and could catch any increase early, you could probably handle it at home just by adding extra water to his food and syringing extra water down his throat

At this point it looks like today's high numbers are most likely due to Carter bouncing off the blue from last night. His body isn't used to being in those 100's .....hopefully he won't bounce long but it can take up to 3 days to break a bounce

I'm off to deal with income taxes!! Nothing like waiting until the last minute!!
 
Chris & China said:
As long as he stays ketone free, you wouldn't need the fluids

You can get fluids from any pharmacy, but of course you have to have a script. As long as you're checking daily and could catch any increase early, you could probably handle it at home just by adding extra water to his food and syringing extra water down his throat

At this point it looks like today's high numbers are most likely due to Carter bouncing off the blue from last night. His body isn't used to being in those 100's .....hopefully he won't bounce long but it can take up to 3 days to break a bounce

I'm off to deal with income taxes!! Nothing like waiting until the last minute!!
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He is the king of bouncing so it seems.

Once his numbers start to lower the chance of him to develop ketones decreased as well, correct? So it won't be as much of a worry to check his urine daily but still something to do periodically?

Good luck!! I ended up getting $21 back lol
 
Shoeskitty said:
The strip looks negative to me as well. My Shoes bounces extremely high too, and so far, thankfully, no ketones.
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I hoping the Lantus evens him out somewhat... he doesn't strike me as a cat that will go into remission any time soon or anything but you never know, Lantus could be a whole new ball game. I'd just be happy with him in the yellows and blues to start.

Because Shoes bounces so high, how often do you tend to test for ketones?
 
Erica & Carter said:
I hoping the Lantus evens him out somewhat... he doesn't strike me as a cat that will go into remission any time soon or anything but you never know, Lantus could be a whole new ball game. I'd just be happy with him in the yellows and blues to start.

Because Shoes bounces so high, how often do you tend to test for ketones?
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I should check him every day, but I don't. Probably about every 5 days. I have become somewhat complacent about it because he has never had DKA. Thanks for this. It will push me out of my complacency!

My goal is the blues and low yellows too. I used the Alpha Trak 2 meter currently and last month checked it with a check at the vet's. Was very surprised that the AT@ was 80 points higher than my vets lab equipment. The AT2 gave me a 309 reading and the lab equipment was 229. Big difference there. Perhaps I have a faulty meter, who knows, but that helped me to not get as upset most of the time with Shoes red and black numbers.
 
Erica & Carter said:
I hoping the Lantus evens him out somewhat... he doesn't strike me as a cat that will go into remission any time soon or anything but you never know, Lantus could be a whole new ball game. I'd just be happy with him in the yellows and blues to start.
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Some valuable advice I really needed our first time around with Lantus--keep in mind that getting him regulated will be a marathon, not a sprint! It takes a little while for BG to level out on Lantus, because the cat has to get used to having numbers in the normal range. So you may see some yellows and blues, and then see it go right back up in the 300-400s for a bit. This is really common. Eventually, the cat gets used to the lower numbers and that's when you start seeing good control over their BG and those high numbers go away. :)

That said, I have the utmost confidence Carter will do great on Lantus--he was diagnosed just a month ago so it's not like he's been on the Vetsulin for months and months, and he's still in the good window of remission for Lantus (<6 months from diagnosis). But, it could take weeks to get him regulated, or it could take months. Don't be discouraged if it's the latter!
 
Julia & Bandit said:
Some valuable advice I really needed our first time around with Lantus--keep in mind that getting him regulated will be a marathon, not a sprint! It takes a little while for BG to level out on Lantus, because the cat has to get used to having numbers in the normal range. So you may see some yellows and blues, and then see it go right back up in the 300-400s for a bit. This is really common. Eventually, the cat gets used to the lower numbers and that's when you start seeing good control over their BG and those high numbers go away. :)

That said, I have the utmost confidence Carter will do great on Lantus--he was diagnosed just a month ago so it's not like he's been on the Vetsulin for months and months, and he's still in the good window of remission for Lantus (<6 months from diagnosis). But, it could take weeks to get him regulated, or it could take months. Don't be discouraged if it's the latter!
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Thank you for the encouragement. The Vetsulin and specifically how it work just makes me constantly anxious and worried for Carter. I don't want to risk hypo and yet I don't want to constantly high numbers to risk ketones. Yet, he is perfectly happy seeming. Everything is normal, he acts like a kitten, but the BG is just not responding.

I have to read the Lantus stickies this weekend and then I'll follow up with you guys in a thread if I have any additional questions.
 
Erica & Carter said:
Thank you for the encouragement. The Vetsulin and specifically how it work just makes me constantly anxious and worried for Carter. I don't want to risk hypo and yet I don't want to constantly high numbers to risk ketones. Yet, he is perfectly happy seeming. Everything is normal, he acts like a kitten, but the BG is just not responding.

I have to read the Lantus stickies this weekend and then I'll follow up with you guys in a thread if I have any additional questions.
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You are doing a fantastic job, Erica! You're home testing, he's on a great diet, and you're doing great job managing him with the insulin you have. Vetsulin is just so rough with those steep spikes and drops.

Ketones typically develop when you have a combination of 3 things happen--infection, dehydration, and high BG. High BG alone doesn't cause ketones, but remaining vigilant for them will help save your cats life if they do develop. So try not to worry about them so much, but definitely keep testing for them. It sounds to me that if he's acting fine, it's not likely he has an infection. And if he's on a canned only diet (and you cheat a little by mixing some extra water in is food) and he's eating ok, it's not likely he'll be dehydrated.
 
Julia & Bandit said:
You are doing a fantastic job, Erica! You're home testing, he's on a great diet, and you're doing great job managing him with the insulin you have. Vetsulin is just so rough with those steep spikes and drops.

Ketones typically develop when you have a combination of 3 things happen--infection, dehydration, and high BG. High BG alone doesn't cause ketones, but remaining vigilant for them will help save your cats life if they do develop. So try not to worry about them so much, but definitely keep testing for them. It sounds to me that if he's acting fine, it's not likely he has an infection. And if he's on a canned only diet (and you cheat a little by mixing some extra water in is food) and he's eating ok, it's not likely he'll be dehydrated.
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Thank you, I'm really trying. I'm a worrier by nature, just want to make sure I'm doing everything correctly. I feel like Carter's previous owners really failed him in the lack of care they gave him so I'm trying to make up for it. If we didn't save him they literally were going to drop him off in a field somewhere even though when we asked to take him previously they fought us tooth and nail.

He loves Tiki Cat he is the first one to finish his meals and I never thought that would have been the case 2 weeks ago. And my other cats are both neutured males so their low carb diet will hopefully detour them from getting diabetes in the future.
 
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Erica & Carter said:
I feel like Carter's previous owners really failed him in the lack of care they gave him so I'm trying to make up for it. If we didn't save him they literally were going to drop him off in a field somewhere even though when we asked to take him previously they fought us tooth and nail.
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I'm so glad he's with you now, Erica. :)

:bighug:


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