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all4mymarine

all4mymarine

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Hi, my cat Lucky was recently diagnosed (after finding his BG at 584!!!) and I've done TONS of reading since then and started home testing this week after waiting for some supplies to be delivered. I've been able to test first time, every time, he's such a cooperative boy. Vet prescribed him ProZinc and she is very knowledgeable and supports home testing.

I don't have many entries on his SS, but if you guys could take a look, I would appreciate it! I think his numbers are still kind of high :( The Vet wants me to do a glucose curve this weekend, which I'll be doing on Sunday. I have a feeling his dose will have to be increased though.

Do you think if I got an automatic feeder for him to eat during the night, it might help his AMPS #'s? He is one of those kitties who scarfs down everything in the bowl and then will go after the other 2 cat's food if I'm not watching him, so I can't free feed like we used to with dry food (wish I would have known all along how bad that was for them!). He's normally a big and solid boy, not fat, at 16lbs. He's down to 14.4lbs.

Anyways, thanks for any insights, like I said, I don't have a lot to go on right now but anything helps!
 
Welcome to PZI land!

It sounds like you are off to a great start. It is always good to start slow
and hold the dose to see how he adjusts before raising..aoubt 3 days or some, sometimes longer
depending on the cat.

I am not one of the experts here...they will be on later..We have been on PZI for 2 months so I am still
trying to get Shakespeare regulated..
but Welocme to the board (I am the early riser!) and I am sure everyone will be welcoming you
with lots of advice later

Denise and SHakes
 
Hi and Welcome!

You are doing great already. Hometesting is very important and how great that you have a vet that supports it!

I glanced at your spreadsheet and after your curve Sunday you should have more data for everyone to help you regarding dosing.

One quick question-- I noticed he is on Clavamox-- does he have an infection?

Good on getting off the dry food also!

We have a great little group that will be willing to help you and Lucky!

Kim
 
Hello and welcome to the group!
It looks like you're off to a great start--food, testing, etc.
I started giving Alex insulin in mid-April and am not ready to give dosing advice, but there are people here who can help.
 
Hi and welcome to our little group.

You are way ahead of the learning curve by home testing, that seems to be the hardest part and changing Lucky's diet. Good for you.

You could try a timed feeder for midnight snacks, many here use them successfully, especially if Lucky is a food scarfer. Just remember that you don't want Lucky to have any food for the two hours before his PS bg test, you want to get a true bg reading for PS.

Your spreadsheet already looks like you are making progress because your PS #'s are already coming down.

We will be looking forward to your curve tomorrow, that will give you a much better idea how the insulin is working in Lucky's system.

Robin
 
Hi and welcome! Great job on the testing! Many people take weeks to be able to test and find it very difficult. And you are soooooo lucky to have a supportive vet.
I think an automatic feeder is a good idea .most like the 5 compartment one.
Your numbers are not horribly high, so you can feel safe raising slowly.
We like being helpful, ask us anything you can think of!
 
Thanks so much everyone! I had debated on whether or not to post here first or the Health board but I'm ready to jump into dosing issues as soon as we get this curve done. I just want my Lucky to be on the right path and I don't always trust the doc's no matter how supportive they are...I'm that way with my human family too.

A little bit about how we found out about the diabetes: One of my cats was urinating in the laundry area right outside the litter box bathroom. I could NOT find out who was doing it! I bought a baby video monitor and put it beside my tv and kept an eye on their activity. Finally! I caught Lucky squatting. Made an appt that Monday with the Vet. He had a fever but the tests didn't show infection, she just went ahead and started him on the AB's. It wasn't until this past Thurs that we found infection in two of his teeth after I asked the Vet to check. He had dental surgery in '08 so I knew he had bad teeth but he doesn't let me look. SO, that's the reason for Clavamox. Oh, and he had no ketones in his urine so that was a good thing.

I have an 11 month old, an almost 8 yr old (with some special needs), and a hubby in the military getting ready to have back surgery this coming Friday!! Our lives are pretty hectic so I wasn't sure if I could handle this too but I just can't give up on my Lucky boy :( He'll be going with us to Denver when hubby gets his surgery so I can take care of him, don't want to stress him out by boarding. I will for sure look into the auto feeder thing more!!

I'll post back tomorrow night....I hate poking him so much and he hates it but he does good for me at least. I love looking at everyone's SS's, it's such a great idea! I have my Vet's email so I can send her mine on Monday.
 
Oh and regarding the infection in his gums, she said once we get him more stabilized, we can schedule a dental. Probably a month or so.
 
Congratulations on the hometesting already! That is a big step on helping your buddy :-D

The tooth issue could also be driving the glucose number up, so actually regulation might be very hard to achieve without that dental. I might give it another week or two to get him used to insulin, but I would push for that dental sooner rather than later.

As far as dosing - I'd probably hold the dose one more day and then up it to 1.25u
 
Kelly & Oscar said:
Congratulations on the hometesting already! That is a big step on helping your buddy :-D

The tooth issue could also be driving the glucose number up, so actually regulation might be very hard to achieve without that dental. I might give it another week or two to get him used to insulin, but I would push for that dental sooner rather than later.

As far as dosing - I'd probably hold the dose one more day and then up it to 1.25u
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Yeah, that's what I was thinking too and that's why I brought it up to her so she could check his teeth in case there was problem. She insisted that he needed to be regulated because they wouldn't be able to give him an injection the morning of the dental? I wasn't really following her logic on the whole thing but I will ask again in a week or two, it'll be a month on insulin at that point anyway. I just had a feeling the teeth needed addressing first.

As far as the dosing goes, I have 40 unit syringes. Is there a trick to measuring out 1.25u or do I need 100 unit syringes to tweak dosage in small quarter amounts? Thanks!
 
You can estimate it if you have the 3/10cc ones which have enough space in between the unit lines. To make things easier, you can always switch over to u100s with the conversion chart and go with a 1.2u dose.

It is true you won't give insulin the morning of the dental - but so many on here have had a very hard time trying to get good numbers when the mouth is yucky!
 
hi & welcome!!!

I would consider free-feeding if you want to. It sounds like he could use some extra food right now to gain weight, and I have found that when they scarf a lot like that, once they realize the food is always there, they settle down and eat more normally. If it worked for you with dry, I think you could do it with canned. If you don't want to do that, then I would definitely do the timed feeder thing - smaller meals more often seem to work well for diabetic kitties.

I would raise to 1.25 and hold that for a couple days and then see were you are. Just for reference in case you don't already know, you would want to lower the dose immediately if you get any numbers under 50, or if the PSs come in under 150. It doesn't look likely right now, but just in case.

Also we generally suggest that when you are first gathering data, if you get a PS under 200, wait and retest in maybe 30 minutes and then give the insulin once they are over 200 (or alternately, shave maybe 0.2 off your dose if the PS is between 180 and 200). Then you can collect some data and gradually lower your no-shoot level from 200 down to 150, as you have some data to be sure your dose is safe on the lower PSs. Just mentioning it in case you see some oddball low numbers soon.
 
Ok, so right now I have U40, 1cc, 1/2 inch syringes. So I can still use the U40 but in .3cc? Would I be able to estimate and eyeball .25 increments?

I did a google search to try to find pictures of the different syringes but I haven't found any. I think I might wait till I get a little more experience to try out the U100. Not sure if the Vet would support me doing that since I'm so new to all this! Want to keep a good relationship with her and pick battles for now.

I would love to try free feeding canned food. I might do that once he gets under control and stops eating everything in sight. He leaves none for the other cats! He's always been the controller over food. He would police the food bowl, so I'm not sure if he will ever be able to not eat all the food. We'll see!

Any tips or suggestions for the curve tomorrow? Do I feed normally? Thanks again to everyone who has responded :)
 
Hi, I'm pretty new here & can't help with the dosing but it sounds like we both have "food hogs". Mine is not the diabetic though. We call other cats that don't have diabetes civvies around here. I had always free fed dry food until Thumper's diagnosis so I was worried about how I was gonna do this. I feed them all in the morning & evening but leave frozen food out when I leave for work & I put some out at night a few hours after I give them dinner. I have never tried one of the auto feeders but I freeze the food & it works well so far. Some people use the silicon muffin pans but I found Kentucky Fried Chicken serves their sides in disposable plastic that is the perfect size for one can of Fancy Feast with a little water added in. You could also get some of that disposable Glad Ware. Anyway I put the can in with some water, stick them in the freezer then they are ready to go when I need them. They just pop right out, or sometimes if they are a little stuck I run just a little water over them. One of my civvies loves the food that way. She acts like it's a major treat, we call them her "popsicles". :lol: It works pretty well since they can't eat it all right away & as it thaws they can come back to it. Hope this helps you some & welcome to our little group!
 
Here is the sticky post on it. The links didn't come through though, so go up to the sticky at the top, look for the link to the Using U100's post, and you'll find the link to the conversion chart there.

Using U100 Syringes and doing the conversion:

The below are ONLY for if you are currently using U-100 syringes or if you intend to use U-100 syringes with a U-40 strength insulin. U-100 syringes are not required for the use of PZI. However, if you feel up to getting the conversion correct 100% of the time, the use of U-100 syringes with U-40 insulin can allow for smaller, more consistent dosing gradients. If you are unsure which syringes you are currently using, U-100 syringes have an ORANGE cap - U-40 syringes have a RED cap. Make sure you know which type of syringe and what strength insulin you are using before you start dosing. Without the proper conversion, use of the wrong syringe with the wrong strength insulin can potentially result in putting your kitty into hypoglycemia or potentially even death. You have been warned: that said, many use U-100 syringes with U-40 PZI insulin successfully.

* Syringe conversion chart (U-40 and U-100) - print out and post somewhere obvious
* U-100, 31 (or 30) Gauge, 3/10cc or 1/3ml, 5/16 inch short needle, with 1/2 unit markings syringes (GNP Brand) at Hocks.com - example of what type and where to purchase.
 
Thanks Barbara, I may try the freezing first. I had read about that but didn't think my kitties would like the cold food but it's worth a try before spending a lot of money on auto feeders! The two civvies are tolerating the wet food but I don't think they are loving the change like Lucky.
 
Wow - they gave you 1cc syringes :shock: Those unit lines are close together then! It would be very hard to estimate a quarter unit change in those syringes. The first time I told my vet that I was using u100 syringes with a conversion chart she was very negative and said she was going to post on the vet list to ask others about whether it was ok. Never heard back from her about it and she never gave me grief about it again. There are vets out there that know about the conversion. Plus it allows you to accurately do small changes rather than changing the dose a whopping 1u at a time, which many like to do.
 
Joanna & Bix (GA) said:
Here is the sticky post on it. The links didn't come through though, so go up to the sticky at the top, look for the link to the Using U100's post, and you'll find the link to the conversion chart there.

Using U100 Syringes and doing the conversion:

The below are ONLY for if you are currently using U-100 syringes or if you intend to use U-100 syringes with a U-40 strength insulin. U-100 syringes are not required for the use of PZI. However, if you feel up to getting the conversion correct 100% of the time, the use of U-100 syringes with U-40 insulin can allow for smaller, more consistent dosing gradients. If you are unsure which syringes you are currently using, U-100 syringes have an ORANGE cap - U-40 syringes have a RED cap. Make sure you know which type of syringe and what strength insulin you are using before you start dosing. Without the proper conversion, use of the wrong syringe with the wrong strength insulin can potentially result in putting your kitty into hypoglycemia or potentially even death. You have been warned: that said, many use U-100 syringes with U-40 PZI insulin successfully.

* Syringe conversion chart (U-40 and U-100) - print out and post somewhere obvious
* U-100, 31 (or 30) Gauge, 3/10cc or 1/3ml, 5/16 inch short needle, with 1/2 unit markings syringes (GNP Brand) at Hocks.com - example of what type and where to purchase.
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Thank you Joanna! I had actually seen that link and I do think switching to U100's is in the future but for right now I think sticking to the U40 since I'm such a newbie to this is best. I would have to talk to the Vet too and convince her that I could do conversions correctly. So far she's been great at supporting all my ideas (except for using Lantus, guess she doesn't like Lantus?)

Would getting .3cc U40 syringes work better than the 1cc I have now? Would that be easier to eyeball .25 increment doses? I can't seem to find a pic of .3cc U40 syringes to get an idea! All I can find are 1cc pictures. Once I figure out what syringe I need, I can start looking for the best place to buy them!
 
all4mymarine said:
Ok, so right now I have U40, 1cc, 1/2 inch syringes. So I can still use the U40 but in .3cc? Would I be able to estimate and eyeball .25 increments?

I did a google search to try to find pictures of the different syringes but I haven't found any. I think I might wait till I get a little more experience to try out the U100. Not sure if the Vet would support me doing that since I'm so new to all this! Want to keep a good relationship with her and pick battles for now.

I would love to try free feeding canned food. I might do that once he gets under control and stops eating everything in sight. He leaves none for the other cats! He's always been the controller over food. He would police the food bowl, so I'm not sure if he will ever be able to not eat all the food. We'll see!

Any tips or suggestions for the curve tomorrow? Do I feed normally? Thanks again to everyone who has responded :)
Click to expand...

Welcome to the PZI board! Sorry I didn't post yesterday, but internet at home was wonky and kept pooping out every time I had a message composed. I'm not an expert here (still new to PZI too) but can answer a few of these questions:

I don't use U40s because I find them to be much more expensive than U100, plus the ones I buy have half unit markings, so it makes small doses easier. I was having fits with the syringes with whole unit markings alone for the same reason you mention. Relion syringes in 3/10 cc 8mm needle 31G are available from Walmart and come with half unit markings in the U100 format (they don't sell U40s). If you use this conversion chart, it makes it easy to use these: http://www.felinediabetes.com/insulin-conversions.htm

On the curve, just feed as you do normally. You don't want to feed within two hours of a shot to ensure you get a decent reading. Food can cause a spike in glucose, so if you stick to your normal feeding times (usually before shots) that will work. How you do one if up to you and your schedule, but I usually pick two or three hour intervals. Usually more than one curve is helpful so that you can get an idea of your cat's patterns over the period the insulin is active.

Hope this helps.
 
I don't think you can get U40s in 1/3cc, but you should be able to get them in 1/2cc, that is what the vets normally sell as far as I know. If you do decide to change I wouldn't worry about trying to convince your vet. Several of us have been down that path ohmygod_smile and IMO it's more headache than you want. Some of the details of what you do aren't really relevant to them, at least that's my view. Certainly you can share what you want with them, and some things are good from an education standpoint - like when one gets good results you can help them understand why you got the results. But in my experience they will tend to freak out if you mention U100s, b/c they figure you are going to misdose.

Anyhow, I would stick with the U40s for now if you feel most comfortable with that, but try to get the 1/2cc ones. You can eyeball 1/4u doses reasonably well, although it's not as precise as the U100s. I already donated my U40s, but there are probably a number of people around who have some leftovers they could send you. You could post on Health or in Supply Cabinet to ask.
 
Well, I sent the Vet an email after Lucky's curve yesterday with the link to his chart (I actually made a line graph https://spreadsheets.google.com/spr...V1huOFdWQ3JSclE&single=true&gid=3&output=html )

I explained to her the need for a different syringe and showed her the conversion chart. I also explained that I do have a bit more medical knowledge than most so it wouldn't be too hard for me to handle a different syringe and conversions and that I don't want Lucky to jump up a whole unit in insulin when he may just need a small change. Her dog was diabetic so she has hands on experience but she did tell me to not listen to everything people tell me on the internet the first time I told her I found a great website with lots of info :? She's been really helpful with printing off info and showing me how to test (although she did dig the lancet into his ear like she was sewing, OUCH!!) and give the shot. If the U100 syringes are more readily available at Walmart and cheaper then it probably would make more sense to just go with those right off. (Anyone else want to share what brand syringe you use? thanks!)

I'll let you guys know what she says but I'll probably get them anyway ;-) Any comments on Lucky's curve is appreciated too, if you want to check it out!
 
Your vet is right to be skeptical about things on the internet, but not every site is the same. There are good and bad ones. Give her the URL to this site and have her check it out for herself. I had another cat with renal failure and got the same story from an ER vet. I gave him the URL for the website I used a lot (Tanya's) and he checked it out and was amazed -- and now refers his own clients to it. :-D The internet is a wonderful thing, but you have to do a lot of research on your own and be a discerning reader. Some websites are mostly opinion or pseudo-science presented as fact, others are fact-based backed by solid research you can verify for yourself, and others mix the two. To be honest, my renal failure cat probably would not have survived had I not found some of these groups and sites on the internet. My vet is wonderful, but I found out about treatments he'd not seen and together we learned a lot. I'd come up with things, he'd research further, and we'd take it from there. No vet can keep up with everything out there, nor can the average person make sense of the confusing array of medical information out there.

At any rate, I use the Relion syringes from Walmart that I mentioned. I used to use BD, but they were awfully expensive (even from Walmart) and didn't have half-unit markings. The Relion ones are substantially cheaper than what I'd been using and work just as well.
 
I use the Walmart Relion 3/10ml doses up to 30 units, with half unit markings, short needle. UPC/Barcode 6 81131 31179 3.

Before you buy them open the box and look at the syringes to make sure they have the half unit markings. I've seen too many people get home and be disappointed that they were given the wrong ones.
 
Cool chart! Looks like a nice U-curve to me, only the numbers overall could come down some. I'd be inclinded to raise the dose by 0.2 or 0.25, whatever you think you can eyeball somewhat consistently.
 
Hmmm, decisions, decisions on the syringes. Not sure if I want to order the U40 .3cc or just get the 100U from Walmart. I think maybe I'll still go with Walmart Relion 100U because I'd like to go ahead and increase dose and don't want to wait for shipping!

Thanks Joanna! I'm very interested to see where a .2 increase will take us! Still haven't heard back from the Vet, so I think I'll just take the dosing into my own hands (with the help of you guys here of course!).

I've had plenty of experience with doctors being skeptical of what I've found on the internet, but I am a firm believer in taking charge of your own health and researching. I've also had plenty of doctors make a wrong diagnosis and get mad when I question them, even though they were wrong! Being a military dependent, I have plenty of stories to tell! LOL (including some good ones :) I'm fully prepared to do what I need to do to make sure my Lucky is taken care of properly ;-)

Lucky is already feeling so much better and I have noticed a very nice difference in his coat, and actually all the cats! They are so soft and shiny! And NO more urinating in the carpet!!! Yay!!!! lol

Well, lots to do today before hubby's back surgery on Friday...better get busy!!
 
Just wanted to say hello and welcome. My cat Max was diagnosed in January and I was right where you are now. I'm sure you're already figuring out that you've come to the best place for help with your diabetic cat. I knew next to nothing at first and was overwhelmed and stressed. This forum and following the great advice/protocol really helped me turn Max's health around. I can understand your vet's concern about random advice over the internet and you definitely have to do your own reading and research, but truly this is the BEST place for help with your diabetic cat. Sounds like you are off to a great start with home testing, curve on Sunday, and diet change. Once you decide on syringes, I agree with the other suggestions that it looks like Lucky could use a .2u or .25u increase. I started with the U40 syringes from my vet, but switched to the U100 with conversion chart when I needed to make smaller dosing adjustments. I used the Walmart ReliOn brand. Good luck and keep us posted.
 
If you get U100s, be sure to get the ones with 1/2 unit markings, that is the key. Be prepared the WMart pharmacy person will NOT know what you are talking about when you ask for that. :mrgreen:
 
Joanna & Bix (GA) said:
If you get U100s, be sure to get the ones with 1/2 unit markings, that is the key. Be prepared the WMart pharmacy person will NOT know what you are talking about when you ask for that. :mrgreen:
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I can certainly second that remark that the WMart pharmacy person will not know what you're talking about. I went round and round in circles with them, but finally got what I wanted.
 
I'll be sure to take a look at them before I buy. Someone posted a UPC code too, so I'll take that with me.

The past two days I've been eyeballing 1.25u on the U40, 1cc. It's not terribly accurate but until I get new syringes, it'll do, and he's doing okay with the small increase.
 
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