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BlackHeart

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My name's Dawn. I live in the state of Illinois in Geneseo near Moline. I just found out that my cat Dante has Diabetes on 29 July 2010. We started insulin right away. He had an hypoglycemia attack lastnight and I had to rush him to the vet. This is so hard. He looked so bad. I gave him some corn syrup and I think that helped some. Right now he's doing ok. He's right here by me on the bed. :cry:

Thank you,
Dawn
 
Hi Dawn,
Welcome, but sorry to hear you had such a bad start.

If you can answer a few questions ...
What insulin are you using?
What was the starting dose?
What was done at the vet and what was said about what you should do now?
Are you home testing his numbers?
 
Hi! Gayle and Shadoe. Thank you.

1) BCP PZI Bovine Insulin
2) 10 maybe more
3) His count was over 480 I think. I can't remember. Sorry. But I know it was in the 400's. Now he's getting 10ml once a day. When he went in lastnight it was 38. Now it's in the 300's. And going down. I can't remember alot right now. I'm sorry.
4) I'm not home testing. I don't know if I can do that.
 
BlackHeart said:
Hi! Gayle and Shadoe. Thank you.

1) BCP PZI Bovine Insulin
2) 10 maybe more
3) His count was over 480 I think. I can't remember. Sorry. But I know it was in the 400's. Now he's getting 10ml once a day. When he went in lastnight it was 38. Now it's in the 300's. And going down. I can't remember alot right now. I'm sorry.
4) I'm not home testing. I don't know if I can do that.
Click to expand...


His starting dose is 10 units? OMG, your vet is dangerous. That is not an appropriate starting dose for a cat.

If you continue to give 10 units a day, it's just a matter of time till he has another hypoglycemic attack because he's being overdosed with insulin. This is why you should home test, starting today. You need to be able to keep him safe.
 
The truth is, Dawn, you must hometest if you want to keep Blackheart safe. As you have seen, if you just shoot blind without knowing what his blood glucose numbers are, you can easily give him too much insulin and it can be deadly. We figure we wouldn't give our children insulin without checking first; we do the same for our kitties. You just can't rely on tests from the vet; you need every day preshot numbers.

It really isn't hard. We poke their ears with a standard lancet and use a human glucometer. Here is a site that has some good beginning info: http://www.sugarcats.net/sites/harry/bgtest.htm and here is a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zE12-4fVn

The other part of this story is food. We feed our cats wet, lo carb food. Here is a site explaining how and why: http://www.catinfo.org BUT DON'T CHANGE THE FOOD UNTIL YOU ARE HOMETESTING. Wet lo carb can drastically bring down bg levels -which is good, but you have to be ready to reduce the dose.

Please know that we all felt scared and overwhelmed and not sure we could do this. But it is doable, and hundreds of cats on this site are regulated or even off insulin, using hometesting and diet. We will be happy to help you in this journey.

PS Love the name. What's the story?
 
Thank you all for the help. Like I said I can't remember the numbers right now. Maybe it was lower. I'm sorry. Here's a picture of Dante. He's 14 years old.

PS- I'm sorry it's 10 units once a day. I got it mixed up.

 
Ten units of BCP PZI one a day seems very incorrect. For almost all cats twice daily insulin dosing is required. Most cats start off on one unit twice daily but a few do two units twice daily.

What strength BCP PZI are you using? it is available in U100, U50 and U50 strengths. What syringes are you using U100 (human) or U40 (animal) and to what marking are you filling the syringe? If you drew up a U40 insulin to the 10 unit marking on a U100 syringe you would be administering 4 units of the U40 insulin.
 
Blackheart is beautiful please let the people here help you save your kitty. They know what they are doing my cat is off insulin and he is on his 8 day with only 2 months onLantus... Thanks to this place, these people....Sorry to say but vets do not know much about Diabetic cats....This is the best help you can get...OK Libby,Ronnie,Gayle, Sienne and all the others here do you thing ;-) :mrgreen: Kath
 
Hi Dawn

Welcome to the FDMB!

I'm not familiar with PZI, we used Lantus, but I am familiar with home testing and the importance of it.

I'm linking our home testing links for you to review when you have a chance
Home testing links:
Home Testing Links

Home testing is the way to go. It does require a bit of effort but it is possible! Do consider it ok?
We want to help you keep your kitty safe.

If you like, you could post your general location (city/state) there may be a member in your area that could help out.
We do also offer newbie kits here on the board to get you going if $$ is tight.. This is the link: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=19541

Hope you can post regularly, lots of members here use PZI as well, and you'll get excellent guidance!
 
Right now I don't know the strength. The syringes are called Sure Comfort 3/10cc for 30 units or less 1/2" length needle 29 gauge needle. My vet does know about Diabetic's cats. He' has treated alot of them.
 
first off i want to say that we did use pzi for about 3 1/2 years so i am directly experienced with how it works.

now down to business :-) cats metabolize insulin twice as fast as humans do, thus the need for twice a day dosing. yes, rarely, and very rarely, there is a cat that only needs once a day dosing and often that is only when they are heading for remission or has another disease that throws their glucose levels out of whack occasionally.

if you are indeed dosing 10 units once a day per your vet's advice, that's just plain wrong unfortunately. 10 units on that syringe would be up to the number 10 on the syringe. starting doses are as was mentioned, usually around 1 to 2 units twice a day, which to be honest looks like nearly nothing in the syringe. 1/2 a unit either way makes a huge difference in our kitty's little bodies. sooo, can you clarify how far up on the syringe you are drawing? we just want to make sure kitty is not being accidentally overdosed as we are all animal lovers here and would never advise someone to do something that would hurt a kitty.

pzi starts working roughly 2 hours after the shot is given and continues to work usually til about 6-8 hours after the shot was given. then the body is on it's own. so once the insulin poops out after that 6-8 hours, the glucose levels rise and rise and rise for the next 16-18 hours, leaving kitty in numbers high enough to possibly bring on other diabetes related complications.

if shot twice a day, then you get longer coverage and shorter amounts of time in high glucose numbers.

mind you, some people see high numbers every day and think they must give more insulin. all that does is make the glucose drop and raise at a steeper angle, it doesn't buy more time of coverage for the day. that ends up with kitty on a roller coaster of high low high low high low and not only does it feel like crap to do that day in and day out, it eventually leads to a hypo and often a trip to the ER in hopes of saving kitty's life.

i've been here since 2006 and have lived with diabetes in my house every day since Mousie was diagnosed and in my own human family for many many years before that. i'm possibly looking at a diagnosis of it for myself very soon. i've learned more about this disease here on FDMB than anywhere else and if i am diagnosed with it soon, i can honestly say i don't mind it because of all i've learned in the last 4 years. . seriously :-D
 
Cats metabolize insulin very quickly compared to humans and usually need insulin dosed twice a day due to this. PZI/ProZinc lasts between 10-14 hours in a cat's body so if you are dosing once a day, your cat is spending half the day with no insulin help. Even if your vet dosed your cat by weight, he would not have come anywhere CLOSE to a 10 unit dose. Most start at 1 unit twice a day and go up from there. If dosed by weight it is usually somewhere around 0.2 units per 2.2lbs of weight (converting metric numbers in my head here).

Just because your vet has seen and treated lots of diabetics does not mean that they are up to date on the current research for diabetes treatment. Please see this article in the Journal of the American Animal Hospital Association: http://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocuments/ ... elines.pdf. It came out this year and details the current recommended treatment protocol for diabetes in cats and dogs. This will give you an idea of the treatment protocol most of us use here on the board and is a published veterinary journal article that you can also bring to your vet if you wish.
 
Hi Dawn, and welcome! Dante is gorgeous! My name is Laurie and my cat is Mr. Tinkles. Please don't be offended by the comments about your vet, no one means to get you upset but the dose he has you giving Dante is very, very high to start out on. There are some cats that need high doses, but they start on a low dose and slowly work up high doses over a period of weeks or months. The reason that your cat had a hypoglycemic episode and ended up at the vet is because of the high dose of insulin, it's much too high, and it is dangerous. You really need to reduce that dose down to 1 unit twice a day right away. You want your cat to be safe, and I'm sure you don't want to go through that again! We don't want to see that happen either, and we want to help you. Please reduce his dose, you won't be sorry.

My cat started out on ProZinc, which is very similar to your insulin. There are other people here who use BCP PZI. We can help you learn how to take good care of Dante if you will let us. One of the most important things you can do to help Dante feel better is to start testing his BG at home. Then you will be able to see if he is going too low and help him before it becomes an emergency trip to the vet. It will help you see how the insulin is working so you can give him the right amount of insulin to keep him healthy. Please look at the home testing links in Ronnie & Luna's post. Ask any questions you might have, we will help you learn how to do it.

We know it is scary and overwhelming, we were all in your shoes at one time. You can do this!
 
Hi & welcome!!! Sounds like you have gotten lots of great advice already, just wanted to send you some ((((hugs)))) and let you know there are lots of us here who want to help get your kitty on track! Hang in there, and just try to take it one step at a time to get things under control. You will get LOTS of info here :-D so just focus on what you can, step by step, and it will start to fall in place.

First step: lower that dose, and switch to 2x/day shots, half of the total days dose per shot. (so on this dose you would switch it to 5u 2x/day, but that dose is likely too high unless you are feeding a pretty high carb dry food). How much you lower the dose depends quite a bit on what food he is eating - if it's low carb canned I would go to 1u 2x/day, if it's high carb dry, I would probably cut the dose in half. Best to post some info on what he is eating so people can help you figure out that angle of things. Ideally of course you want to be home-testing, but understandably you aren't right now, so I would try to ballpark a dose in the short-term.

I posted on Community to see if there is anyone near where you live who might be able to give you some in-person or over-the-phone support or help. It can be a lot easier if someone can help you through the learning curve! :-D
 
you might want to start at 1unit twice a day,,,12 hours apart and get the supplies to test your cat. you may want to order a newbie kit with testing devices. you are in dangerous territory with that dose, no testing and it's just not right.
please take seriously the recommendation to test your cat and lower the dose. alot!
 
Dante had another attack yesterday. He's doing fine right now. His insulin is at 4 units once a day now. I'm suppose to give him one tomorrow morning. He's going to vet tomorrow too. I'm trying to get one of the kits but I don't have Pay-Pal. I sent lori and tom a request. Thank you again for all the help.
 
Hmmm, you mean a hypo attack? Was that on the 4u, or it was on the 10u and now you have reduced to 4u? If it was on the 4, I would definitely hold off on giving him that amount tomorrow - could you split it into 2x/day, so 2u twice a day instead of the 4u once? Most cats need insulin 2x/day, and especially with the hypos I think it would be a lot safer, since it's a lower dose, spread out better. Think of it as taking 2 Tylenol every 4 hours for a headache, instead of taking 4 Tylenol all at once (gulp!) and expecting it to last all day.

If there is any info we can help you find to give you ammo for when you talk with the vet, just let us know. There are a ton of articles around here, some might be something useful to email or print for your vet to read...

Glad he is doing ok now, this must be so scary!!! Please keep us posted how things are going! :-D
 
how does a cat diagnosed july 29th get a vial of pzi vet from the vet? i thought it was not made anymore and impossible to get (except left overs from each other)
also how does a vet who 'knows about diabetic cats' prescribe 10 units once a day?
and a dx # in the 400's is not outrageously high, most of us came in way over 500.
i'm confused all around.


"When he went in lastnight it was 38. Now it's in the 300's. And going down. I can't remember alot right now. "

you said he was laying next to you in bed right now so how do you know he's in the 300's and going down.

i want to help and send out a kit but none of this makes any sense.
 
I would encourage to keep trying to get that kit.
If it's going to take too long, you can purchase the Relion meter ($9-12)at any Walmart, strips of 25 are about $20.

You are receiving good guidance on the dose here. Everyone here is concerned for your kitty.
Speak to your vet too about these episodes.
And do keep us posted.
 
kit will be sent immediatly upon getting an address to send it to. i was pm'd but no addy.
my remarks still hold, but it is my policy to get kits out to every kitty who needs one weather shipment is paid or not and weather i understand or not.
all of this is not something that makes sense...is all i'm saying.
ronnie, i would not withold a kit. :razz:
lori and tom
 
lori and tom said:
how does a cat diagnosed july 29th get a vial of pzi vet from the vet? i thought it was not made anymore and impossible to get (except left overs from each other)
Click to expand...

I could be wrong because I use Lantus, but wasn't it IDEXX PZI that was discontinued? BCP PZI is still available, I believe.

lori and tom said:
also how does a vet who 'knows about diabetic cats' prescribe 10 units once a day?
Click to expand...

If the vet is dosing the cat like a dog, depending on the cat's weight, it's possible. My old vet prescribed lantus and taught me how to home test, and to go to low carb wet food, but she was having me dose Bandit like you would a dog. So I would say she was knowledgable about diabetic cats, just not the correct dosing.
 
I believe the IDEXX PZI was called "PZI Vet" and IDEXX is /was the manufacturer

Dawn, your vet started the dose way too high.

Please start over at 1 unit every 12 hours. Your cat will thank you (and live longer).

Somewhere on the insulin vial, it should note the strength -- U40, U50 or U100 -- these numbers mean 40 units of insulin per 1cc (or 1 milliliter if you prefer) or 50 units per cc or 100 units per cc.

Pet insulins are available in U40, U50 or U100.

Human insulins are only available in U100.

The syringes should match the insulin -- so on the package, it should also say U40 or U100. If using U40 insulin and U100 syringes -- then there is a 2.5 "conversion factor" so the 10 units would really be 4 units which is still too much for starting out.

Please look again, and tell us what U number is mentioned on the insulin and the syringes.

Since there are many more diabetic humans, the supplies are less expensive than what is available from your vet.

So -- many of us use human insulin, human syringes and human glucometers.

I figured out what I spend per day on my diabetic cat's supplies -- $1.17 covers two shots (new syringe every time) and two blood sugar tests.
That is using Levemir Insulin and diabetes supplies that I order from www.hocks.com
 
the vet is putting together a kit for you? nice vet!
are you able to put together a rice sock of some sort to help warm the ear for easier bleeding. small sock, add dry rice, tie off, cut off length----throw in microwave for 5-10 seconds until warm to the touch of your face then apply to ear.
 
what do you mean by everything? do you feel you are ready to poke?
 
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