Help with urination outside of box, started with diabetes

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Scruffy

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Hello,

We are really fustrated at this point and I am looking for any advice/help with this situation. I will include alot of info, if you want to skip right to the current issue skip to paragraph 4

Some background: We have 3 male cats in our home, no other animals. Male, DSH about 13 years old. He was fat, in July doctor said put him on a diet. So we did. We changed him to different food (cats have been on Science Diet for the last 10 years) to help him lower weight. Also no more self feeding. Scruffy (diabetic cat) lost weight fast, we didn't know it was too fast. He went from 16# down to 12# in about 2 months. Then we started finding urine in the front of the boxes. I was able to catch him in the act, he was just standing in the box facing the entrance and going so it was coming right out the front of the box.

Of course there was lots of urnine and water was disappearing fast. After taking him in (September), thinking he had a bladder infection we find out he was diabetic. We were leaving for vacation in two days. I asked doc if he should be borded and treated, or if it could wait till we return. Doc said it could wait (sugar was at 400 or so). Our neighbor did daily checks and box scooping, we reverted to self feeding while we were gone.

We came home to a major mess in our basement, mostly urine but also poop. These messes were on the far end of the basement, Scruffy had to walk past the litter box to urinate where he did. That day he was admitted and began treatment. That was 9/15/10, we have had him home and doing the shots ourself since 9/17.

His sugar is still not stable, but he has been averaging 178 over the last 10 readings (going back to Oct 12th) on our OneTouch Ultra at home. The lowest of those being 60, high being 322. The meter has been tested several times and even compared to the Vets meter. It appears to be reliable. He still appears to be urinating more, but not as bad as before treatment started. He was also treated for blood in his urine several weeks ago, that appears to have cleared up.

After cleaning up the major mess/messes after vacation we penned him in one room in the basement. He was penned unless we could see where he was and what he was doing. This prevented more messes and allowed us to monitor his water/urnine situaiton. We slowely started to loosen up and then let him run free again.

We recently found more messes around the basement. Again, these are well past the litterboxes. There are 4 large boxes that are cleaned 1 to 2 times a day. We cleaned the old messes with Natures Miracle and he typically has not resoiled the old areas. The Doc did say that with the blood in the urine the cat will not want to use the box due to the other cats detecting the blood so its not uncommen for them to urinate somewhere private. As far as I can tell he does not have anymore blood in his urine.

There has been enough property damage so far and we are getting very fustrated with this situation. Any advice help would be very much welcomed.
Current food for Scruffy is Purina DM, some soft but mostly dry. I have read some of the info on here about cat food. I am intending on switching him to a better food, but was going to stay with this until he was stabilized with his insulin. He is currently on 5 units of ProZinc insulin twice daily. He started at 3 units in Sept. He is fed meals at 6am and 6pm with insulin, and snacks at noon and midnight. He has swallon back up to about 15#, Doc said not to starve him until he is regulated better. He has currently been placed back on lock down :?

I am confused with the urination problems. I understand he may have trouble getting to a box in time since he is still drinking more, but he is going to extra effort to go past the boxes and go into a corner of the basement?
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

This is a tough one! We went thru that until we figured out that Shadow had some back leg weakness and was having difficulty climbing into the kitty box. The hubz cut the side down and the problem went away.

But let me put a little bug in your ear - I have read that L-lysine is used by some folks for inappropriate urination. I've never tried it myself and you'd have to search this site to find the correct dose but it's available at a health food store. It is an essential amino acid that is used as an immunity boosting supplement.

A google search for inappropriate urination may turn up additional info.

Good luck. Once Shadow's BG came down, she quit drinking as much and so less pee.

A little off the subject but...you'll have trouble stabilizing Scruffy's BG as long as he's on dry food - it is LOADED with carbs. When I calculated Shadow's daily calorie requirements, it came out to be 1/8 cup dry food PER DAY. That's a coffee scoop.

Anyway, good luck with Scruffy.
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

I agree that NOW is the time to get him on better food, a low-carb wet (never dry) food. There are better choices ingredient-wise than the prescription diets. Check Janet and Binky's chart for food under 10%. Limit seafood because of high phosphorus, which can led to kidney problems. However, you need to be careful when switching to a lower carb wet food because your cat's blood glucose levels might fall precipitously. 5U of ProZinc is higher than an average dose, and I would suggest that he might be being overdosed.

Now for you original question. Inappropriate urination on the scale you describe must be making you crazy. Dr. Lisa Pierson has a page on Feline Urinary Tract Health that might give you some clues. You don't say whether he was examined and treated for the blood in his urine. My suggestion is that you take him to the vet and have the vet investigate whether there is a lower urinary tract problem. At the least, if the cat were mine, I would ask for a urinalysis and a culture and sensitivity on a sterile urine sample taken by way of a cystocentesis.

Of course, the inappropriate urination also could be the result of not being well regulated on insulin. It does not sound like you are testing your cat's BG levels on a regular basis. You have 10 readings over the last 13 days. That is not frequently enough to appropriately treat your cat's diabetes. With a change in food, the possibility that he currently may be overdosed, the probability that his BG levels may fall when you change food, and the inappropriate elimination, I would suggest that you speak with your vet about starting over with his insulin dose. You don't say how he got to 5U, but if it was based on readings at the vet, those readings could have been inflated by stress. Also, even if the readings are taken at home and provided to the vet, or if the vet bases dosing decisions on clinical symptoms, the vet might take the dose up when in fact it should go down because high numbers also can come from chronic rebound from a too-high dose.

But then, there also is the possibility that you have a high dose cat with acromegaly or insulin antibodies.

But without regular, frequent blood glucose readings (at least at each preshot, and mid cycle as often as your schedule, your cat, and your pocketbook permit), it is impossible to really tell what is going on with your cat. I am just throwing out some possibilities that occur when a diabetic cat without any other conditions is eliminating inappropriately.
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

I had the same problem with my cat urinating outside the box, then later accidents on the hallway carpet, even saw her go to the hallway purposely to pee.

She appeared confused and dazed.
I think the confusion is due to high BG readings and before that erratic high's and low's too fast when using Humulin N.
After I switched to Lantus, the erratic readings were gone, but she continued to have very high readings.
She got to the point where she was too weak to get into the litter box and didnt bother trying.

Its important to get her BG levels down and to consistant readings.

With my cat, she had other medical issues I did not know about and I was not able to get her readings lower.

If your cat is just diabetic, and you monitor her readings and get them lower, your cat will probably stop the urinating outside the box.
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

Yes that is very frustrating. Deep breathes and know a few changes (maybe many) you will find a solution. here is what worked for me:

5 cats in household- peeing on couches, carpet and outside of boxes. YUCK YUCK YUCK!!

First for the diabetic cat-KHAN (that's mine) his back legs were weak and became weaker-- I've since placed him on methyl B12 which was recommended here.. and now he is doing MUCH MUCH Better and his BG is becoming more regulated.. from 600+ down to mid 200s-low 300..still a ways to go but MUCH better. I isolated him to one bedroom, cat tree by the window, heating pad bed etc.. in fact he didn't leave until he started to feel better.
Family Dollar has KitKat disposable ($3.95) litter box- comes with litter in it already. well it has very short sides. I placed it on a bin cover (in case he over shot) and guess what? he used it because it was easy for him to get in. i bought 2 and did the same thing. I placed a uncovered low side litter box in the same room. In the other room I placed side by side two covered boxes with a computer plastic floor cover on the floor (that plastic piece that allows the computer chair to roll).. I did this so if there was peeing on the outside I could clean it. downstairs (khan never goes because it is very hard on his back legs) there are 2 big open low sided bins. Litter is 3 1/2 -4" deep. I then learned about catinfo.org... Definitely read what Dr. Pierson has to say about litter and litter boxes. you may think I am crazy (my family does) but this is also what I did- I covered my couches with a silo black plastic covers-looks like a BIG garbage bag-- bought at fleet farm for $10. I duct taped the plastic under the couch then covered with a sheet then blankets. I did this until i could get the peeing under control. I offered a litter box behind the one couch as well. I offered new cat beds-each covered in a plastic garbage bag then covered with a pillow case. I wash all the cat bedding 2x/wk. My goal is to NOT have plastic on my couches, NO urine outside of boxes, no urine smell in my house, minimal cat hair on my couches since the cats have SOOO many beds to pick from and 2 cat trees. I am now beginning to follow Dr. Pierson's litter box/litter advice found on that site. I have purchased 2 new bins-my brother is going to cut the openings for me. I found a rebate for a free CAT ATTRACT bag of litter (worth $20) at Dr. Elsey's site-look for REBATE on this site. To date NO peeing outside of the boxes and I haven't even switched the boxes or litter yet! Good luck.. it will get better and it is very frustrating but please read catinfo.org since that site was extremely helpful to me. :) I can NOT wait to have the plastic off my couches! my 3 yrs old LOVEs to run and slide off the couch.. ..but it is free intertainment! ha.. i have to have humor or I'd go crazy..
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

You don't say whether he was examined and treated for the blood in his urine. My suggestion is that you take him to the vet and have the vet investigate whether there is a lower urinary tract problem. At the least, if the cat were mine, I would ask for a urinalysis and a culture and sensitivity on a sterile urine sample taken by way of a cystocentesis.
Click to expand...

I took him in for the blood in urine. I was actually finding coagulated blood on the floor and in his box. They tried to get a urine sample but could not, believe me I could hear Scruffy throught the wall. He was given a shot to clear up an infections in the bladder. I have not found any more blood in the urine.

You have 10 readings over the last 13 days. That is not frequently enough to appropriately treat your cat's diabetes.
Click to expand...

I have actually been testing him daily but had to leave for a weekend trip and came back last night. My wife has not tried it yet. I have tested twice a day but his ears were getting pretty beat up. So I should be doing this 3 times a day? Sometimes I was having a hard time getting blood from him as well. Pricking his hears 3 times and not getting enough due to missing vein.

I was leary about changing food since we have had some very low readings recently. I had one of 29 and two last week under 80. I didn't want to change food and have his go to low due to the food change.

You don't say how he got to 5U, but if it was based on readings at the vet, those readings could have been inflated by stress.
Click to expand...

Yes, those were check up readings by the vet. He was over 400 each time so they keeped upping his dose. He has been steadily dropping over the last few weeks. Although I will still get a 250 now and then, but 150's has been more the norm.

I will read more on the food, thanks for the information. The problem we have is this cat is not eating like a dog! He eats so fast he doesn't really even chew. He is hungry 24/7! He has now started eating the other cats puke! I cannot have him get any fatter, but again the vet said not to starve him while his bg levels are still not right??
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

A little off the subject but...you'll have trouble stabilizing Scruffy's BG as long as he's on dry food - it is LOADED with carbs. When I calculated Shadow's daily calorie requirements, it came out to be 1/8 cup dry food PER DAY. That's a coffee scoop.
Click to expand...

I have been feeding him the recommended amount of 3/4 cup a day. 1/4 at each meal and 1/8 at his snack time. Now he is a food Ninja and will steal from the others dishes if I get a little distracted. And I have been mixing some soft in from time to time. We have recently changed to no more soft (and keeping a better eye on them during dinner times so he isn't stealing extra food) and just the dry to monitor his weight and see if he is going up or down.
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

Gingers Mommy (Lori) said:
I had the same problem with my cat urinating outside the box, then later accidents on the hallway carpet, even saw her go to the hallway purposely to pee.

She appeared confused and dazed.
I think the confusion is due to high BG readings and before that erratic high's and low's too fast when using Humulin N.
After I switched to Lantus, the erratic readings were gone, but she continued to have very high readings.
She got to the point where she was too weak to get into the litter box and didnt bother trying.

Its important to get her BG levels down and to consistant readings.

With my cat, she had other medical issues I did not know about and I was not able to get her readings lower.

If your cat is just diabetic, and you monitor her readings and get them lower, your cat will probably stop the urinating outside the box.
Click to expand...

Thats the thing with ours, other than an appetite of a horse he is acting completely normal. He is not weak by any means. He is running, jumping, ext. Infact I suspect it was him who climped on the counter two weeks ago and knocked my 2 week old smart phone onto my tile floor....killing it.

As another poster suggested I may have to take him in again to make sure everything else in the urinary tract is good to go, even though it appears everthing is healthy.
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

Thanks Pepper, I will have to look into that information as well.

The thing that throws me is until Scruffy became sick we had almost no issues with peeing outside of boxes. We could not leave a box on the floor in the basement, or laundry basket, or coiled up extension cord or it would get hit. It was like anything even resembling a box and it was fair game to one of our three boys. I suspected one (since he had previous accidents) but we could never catch anyone. It was fustrating but did not happen very often at all.

With him now being on "lockdown" again it will also help to confirm he is the only one doing this, which I suspect is the case. When his BG was higher and he was very early in his treatment he actaully went on the floor once in front of us! So I suspect its him and only him at this point.
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

One disease, interstitial cystitis, may come & go. It is irritating or painful in the affected animal, which may result in avoidance of areas where pain was experienced ... like the litterbox.

A bacterial infection may have associated pain with the litterbox, too, resulting in avoidance.

After you are certain no medical problem is ocurring, temporary confinement to a wire kennel crate with litter, enough space to lie down, and a water bowl, may help re-train the cat to use the box.
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

BJM said:
One disease, interstitial cystitis, may come & go. It is irritating or painful in the affected animal, which may result in avoidance of areas where pain was experienced ... like the litterbox.

A bacterial infection may have associated pain with the litterbox, too, resulting in avoidance.

After you are certain no medical problem is ocurring, temporary confinement to a wire kennel crate with litter, enough space to lie down, and a water bowl, may help re-train the cat to use the box.
Click to expand...

The doc did mention that to me during one visit. While he is currently confined to our laundry room (just over night, or while we are not able to watch him in the house) he has had zero accidents. Some overshooting of the box, but thats rare. So while its certainly possible he is avoiding the boxes due to past pain, his behavior when confined to one room would seem to indicate otherwise.

Fustrating.....

On a good note I did check his BG a bit ago, it was at 48, 7 hours after his breakfast and injection. The Vet did tell me all meters like this can be about 50 points off of actual BG, and I think that is the case because when I got a reading of 29 on him he was acting completely normal. So I believe today he was probably around 100.
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

Others here have informed me the meters may be off by + or - 20%
So 48 could be anywhere between 38.4 - 57.6.

And they've told me (a rank newbie) that you can't tell by looking that the cat is going to be OK.

So, with numbers that low, get out the Karo/honey/glucose/high carb gravy etc., because you could be moments from a seizure. And get the cat to eat until the numbers are safer.

And really read over this linked info, print it out, memorize it, etc.
"How to treat HYPOS - THEY CAN KILL! Print this Out!!"
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

My vet is more comfortable with numbers 70-150. safer that way for most unexperienced -like me. I'd feed that cat high carb canned and keep checking every fifteen minutes until the numbers started to come up. You can find a listing of high carb canned cat food on Binky's list.. that is what I did.. most any fancy feast with gravy is high carb. and very palable.

I would also get on here asap to get some support inbetween BG checks since there is more to BG in a cat than just the number rising.. their body kicks in and this can cause BG to be a bit crazy for a while.. Best to wait for an experienced FDMB to come on here and advice. REad that link you were sent on HYPOS can kill... very very necessary if you do not want your cat to seizure if BG drops to low.

Very happy you are in the right place. :)
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

Ok Scruffy I gotta say my cat Khan was up to 5u on Humulin N twice a day. I was shoot blind and Khan kept peeing outside box and getting sicker. Finally I found this site, listened to a member about switching to can food. I truely DID NOT.. and I really mean this..did NOT believe Fancy Feast -no grain low carb off that Binky's list would do it for my cat. Well it did and he did transition well-not cold turkey but within a few days. I also learned as much as I could about insulin from this page as well as a friend whom is a diabetic educator. I am so much better off from listening and being open to trying what others here have already proven has worked for them. Khan was 600+ on his BG and the vet clinic at the time wasn't much help. Then I asked the vet: why would I shoot insulin in a cat without knowing the BG numbers? I wouldn't do it to a person why a cat? Well my vet listened and agreed to home testing and so we began the food switch, home testing and Spreadsheet on this page. My vet watchs Khan's spreadsheet (I am very very thankful for that). Then we agreed to switch to Lantus. it took a while to get since I had to come up with the money and ship it from Canada-took 2 wks. In the mean time Khan's BG numbers were dropping.. I was down to 1u Humulin and why? All I can say is: Low carb foods and maybe his pancreas was beginning to remember to produce insulin (some cats go into remission -it is called Honey mooning)..well I started on 1u Lantus on Oct. 16th. (see my spreadsheet attached).. now you can see Khan's numbers are no longer high 300s..but mid 200s..slowly dropping.. no peeing outside box. I've added methyl B12 to help with his neuropathy..(recommended on this site). Khan has begun to running around in last 3 days! it is truely amazing. The way I look at it.. the current approach my vet and I agreed upon was not working, people here found a way to make it work. We love our cats.. why not give a try? start today in the food transition-look at Binky's list- you may want to isolate the cat while you're gone (I do) so I can see stool and peeing amt and make sure he is eating. I was dead set on dry food believe me.. but this approach found here is defintiely working..I've been converted and guess what? my vet (bless him).. he really listened and now the diabetic protocol for felines in his clinic maybe changing!! I have a inexpensive meter so I can get 50 strips for $40 (I bought mine from Target but many here like the Walmart brand -costs about the same. You can then begin to test more and really get an idea on what is going on. I can't wait to here what you deciede. :)
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

I did stop at Petco this evening. I checked over the selection and Binky's table of wet food. About the best I could find was Merrick Cowboy Cookout 52% Protien, 42% fat, 5% carbs. Calories were ok and price was ok. I did some math and realized what it would cost to feed all three of the boys this per month. So far I have found some cheaper alternatives on line. If I feed according to what they suggest it will be 6 cans total per day. I will have to search around here and find out what amount I should be feeding each of them. They were fed this for dinner tonight and they all loved it!

Homer (very large cat, mostly Maincoon as far as we can tell) has been on Science Diet C/D for probably the last 5 years. He has a blockage that nearly killed him, no problems since. I need to learn if this food is going to be safe for him with his history. We have actually been feeding all of them C/D since they self fed until this summer.

Thanks to all for the advice so far. Lots to learn.
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

The Merrick Cowboy Cookout is used by a lot of folks - I just haven't located it in Columbus, Ohio yet!

Do you know what kind of blockage your Maine Coon had? Some of the folks here have been through that with their cats and may have some good suggestions for you.
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

His urethra was blocked with crystals I belive. If I recall correctly we caught it in time with about 12hrs to spare. He was at the vet for several days and has been 100% since.
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

Wow. My big black Pepper isn't pure breed main coon but is big and furry like one.. he is on c/d as well..but today working on collecting urine from him. I wrote down what was stated above regarding urine testing (thank you!).. He will be going in on saturday for a check-he doesn't seem himself lately and yesterday was downstairs (there are 2 litterboxes there as well as upstairs) and he (i'm pretty sure it was him)let out a loud meow..i ran down to see if it was from him and if he was by the litter box but he wasn't by the litter box (and there was another cat (he gets along with) down there-neither by the boxes so I really don't know what to think. I just know he should be examed and urine checked. I'm trying to transition him to c/d wet.. until I can get more information on a different food line to offer.
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

If there was blood in the urine it could have been from crystals or an infection. These can cause pain, at times excruciating pain that the cat associates with the litter box. Sometimes if a cat hurts when using the litterbox, he will associate the litterbox with the pain and will avoid it, even after the medical problem has been resolved.

If your cat has associated the litter box with fear or pain, getting a completely different litter box, changing the type of litter used, and/or moving the litter box to a new location may remove the association for the cat.

Place the (new) litter box near the inappropriate location. Give the cat a few days to a week to get used to any new location. Don't move the litter box more than a couple of feet at a time.

Clean the area thoroughly with an enzymatic cleaner such as Nature's Miracle or Simple Solution. Remember that your cat's nose is much better than yours, so you must make sure he can't smell any urine or waste. Don't use ammonia to clean the areas.

I have found Cat Odor Off from Thornell Labs ( http://www.thornell.com/catalog/Products-2-1.html) to be very effective, even saved my mattress.

If the cat has been eliminating or urinating on the floor, cover the area with aluminum foil and tape it down, or use a strip of plastic carpet protector, the kind with little plastic teeth to hold it in place. Because these feel differently than the original flooring, the cat usually will not venture onto it. If this doesn't work, you can try turning the carpet protector upside down. Then follow the instructions above about locating the litterbox nearby.
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

Scruffy said:
I did stop at Petco this evening. I checked over the selection and Binky's table of wet food. About the best I could find was Merrick Cowboy Cookout 52% Protien, 42% fat, 5% carbs. Calories were ok and price was ok. I did some math and realized what it would cost to feed all three of the boys this per month. So far I have found some cheaper alternatives on line. If I feed according to what they suggest it will be 6 cans total per day. I will have to search around here and find out what amount I should be feeding each of them. They were fed this for dinner tonight and they all loved it!

Homer (very large cat, mostly Maincoon as far as we can tell) has been on Science Diet C/D for probably the last 5 years. He has a blockage that nearly killed him, no problems since. I need to learn if this food is going to be safe for him with his history. We have actually been feeding all of them C/D since they self fed until this summer.

Thanks to all for the advice so far. Lots to learn.
Click to expand...
If you have switched to low carb already PLEASE increase the frquency of your BG checks at home and be ready to cut the dose!! You will almost certainly be overdosing if you stay at the same dose. Seriously - please read the Stickies. You need to be more prepared for this, rely less on your vet and more on your home tests - testing 2 or 3 times a day is not enough during this transition especially since you have seen very low readings already in the past. If you see 30s you have to asusme it is correct.
Also consider going to Lantus or Levemir as the insulin you're currently on is really not the best thing for cats any more. Especially if you can't test every two hours or so.
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

let me know if you deciede to switch insulins since I do have lantus pens but not sure how to ship if I can..that could save you some money and get your cat going asap. Like stated above.. check BG check BG check BG.. much more frequently since Khan it only took 3-4 wks for his Bg numbers to drop so I had to decrease from 5u to under 1u ..if I didn't know this he would probably of died from a siezure due to hypo. I"m headed home.. lets pray my pepper peed so I can drop off the sample.
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

pepperthecat1969 said:
Wow. My big black Pepper isn't pure breed main coon but is big and furry like one.. he is on c/d as well..but today working on collecting urine from him. I wrote down what was stated above regarding urine testing (thank you!).. He will be going in on saturday for a check-he doesn't seem himself lately and yesterday was downstairs (there are 2 litterboxes there as well as upstairs) and he (i'm pretty sure it was him)let out a loud meow..i ran down to see if it was from him and if he was by the litter box but he wasn't by the litter box (and there was another cat (he gets along with) down there-neither by the boxes so I really don't know what to think. I just know he should be examed and urine checked. I'm trying to transition him to c/d wet.. until I can get more information on a different food line to offer.
Click to expand...

Yeah, you will want to check on that right away. If I recall correctly they cannot be blocked very long before it will kill him. Homer was a bit off for a day or so, then he was meowing like you described which is not the norm for him. We took him in just in time. Their urine is so strong it will get backed up and it will not take long to cause major problems. That is what the vet told me back then anyway.
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

Perry and Sooty said:
Scruffy said:
I did stop at Petco this evening. I checked over the selection and Binky's table of wet food. About the best I could find was Merrick Cowboy Cookout 52% Protien, 42% fat, 5% carbs. Calories were ok and price was ok. I did some math and realized what it would cost to feed all three of the boys this per month. So far I have found some cheaper alternatives on line. If I feed according to what they suggest it will be 6 cans total per day. I will have to search around here and find out what amount I should be feeding each of them. They were fed this for dinner tonight and they all loved it!

Homer (very large cat, mostly Maincoon as far as we can tell) has been on Science Diet C/D for probably the last 5 years. He has a blockage that nearly killed him, no problems since. I need to learn if this food is going to be safe for him with his history. We have actually been feeding all of them C/D since they self fed until this summer.

Thanks to all for the advice so far. Lots to learn.
Click to expand...
If you have switched to low carb already PLEASE increase the frquency of your BG checks at home and be ready to cut the dose!! You will almost certainly be overdosing if you stay at the same dose. Seriously - please read the Stickies. You need to be more prepared for this, rely less on your vet and more on your home tests - testing 2 or 3 times a day is not enough during this transition especially since you have seen very low readings already in the past. If you see 30s you have to asusme it is correct.
Also consider going to Lantus or Levemir as the insulin you're currently on is really not the best thing for cats any more. Especially if you can't test every two hours or so.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the information. Should I be switching food AND insulin at the same time though? I mean his numbers have been coming down with just the dry DM food and the current insulin. I have taken several readings today and they are low. I am headed to the vet to get more insulin as we are nealry out anyway and going to discuss lowering the dose as well.
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

Truely nothing against your Dr. truely-- some vets are not well versed in treating diabetes.. I was very lucky I found this board and then went back to my vet and discussed what I have learned. It was then and only then that we began to get somewhere. I trust his advice and greatly appreciate his honesty-since he had never used Lantus and really didn't recommend home testing. So with that said please keep in mind many here have been down the road you are traveling. I am praying your vet understands insulins and the low carb approach.. if not it isn't too late to read "how to convert a vet" and keep on here. No one here ever wants someone else to go through a bad or horrible experience maybe they have gone through. it is why the advice is given-to help prevent. Can't wait to hear what you learn.. you sure are a wonderful cat owner- just the best to love up 3 kitties!

pepper peed-I ran it to the vet at lunch with a stool sample. Pee was very small amt and so was stool (very hard and small). He is a big cat. I will most likely be taking him in to be examined in 1.5 hrs ..really need to know his bladder well on its way to being blocked. uggh!
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

Ok Pepper is blocked -- Vet just called and told me LARGE crystals and to bring him in asap. I'm going right now.
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

pepperthecat1969 said:
Ok Pepper is blocked -- Vet just called and told me LARGE crystals and to bring him in asap. I'm going right now.
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Good luck with everything. Sounds like you caught it early enough.
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

Update:

I went to the vet today, without Scruffy. Just wanted to talk to someone about the curve I was doing today and the food/insulin. I like where we go, but there are several docs and I have had a different one each time I have taken him in for this. The one I have talked to the most on the phone (weekely updates on BG numbers) wasn't overly concerned when I called in with a nuber a few weeks ago that was 29, he did suggest some Karo and food before I left for the afternoon. However, he did remind me that my meter could be off by as much as 50.

To back up, I did a check PS this am at 6am. He was at 46. I fed and gave insulin as normal (realize now I should not of). I then checked him every two hours and got 30 and 23. After the 23 reading I have him some DM dry food. Checked him at noon and got 35, again at 2pm and got 22.

I then met with a new doc I have never seen. She was concerned and said I should not of given him any insulin this am. She directed me to come home, give him some Karo and food and monitor his BG. NO insulin in the PM. Check him in the AM like I did today, if numbers under 200 no insulin. Check 1 hour after morning reading/breakfast, if still under 200 NO insulin. That all sounds good to me.

When I explained he was acting completely normal, she mentioned he might be used to being lower than normal and has learned to compensate over the last few days....kind of like a alcoholic does after a while. Made sense to me.

I mentioned I switched food last night, but he has had DM wet before which is similar to the Merrick I gave him last night and I have never gotten so many low readings. So it is possible he is reversing rather quickly, not getting my hopes up just yet though.

She recommended getting his urnine tested soon to rule out any relapse on the bladder infections. However, with his sugar (possibly) so low we should wate a few days to make sure he comes up before we stress him at the doc's office. She also said they like numbers between 80-180 to be safe.

Again, I am using a OneTouch Ultra. I compared it to the animal specific one they have. Once it was about 55points lower, and a second time it was dead even with theirs. Just wondering how much I should or shouldn't trust this meter.
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

Also, on the insulin issue:

I asked about possibly switching him to Glargine (sp). She said that is still an option, however, there is some stuff going around that some ppl are dying while on it so it might be pulled from the market soon and would be very hard to find. So she said it might be best to wait a bit. She also mentioned it might be scare tactics from other manufacturers competing against Glargine, time will tell.

Thanks again to all of you for bringing me up to speed so far. You have all been very helpful!!
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

About one hour ago I have him 1 teaspoon of Karo, and 1/8 cup dry dm food (figured he needed the carbs). Just checked him and he is at 112. Anyone want to weigh in on that? Should he be a lot higher than that? Or does that seem about right?
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

How many hours since insulin? Oh, I see -+10. Well, he is heading up, but the syrup really does impact the bg in the short term.

What are your thoughts for tonight? IMHO, I wouldn't shoot at all. And I would be tempted to start over tomorrow at a much lower dose.
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

Sue and Oliver said:
How many hours since insulin?
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6AM was his last does if insulin. So 10 hours. Don't know if you read the previous posts, but he was down in the 20-40's all day. He will not be getting any insuling with his dinner at 6PM per the doc.
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

Well it was only one meal last night so I can't say for certain it was all the food. He has been on a high dose (5 units) for a while so that may have something to do with it? BTW, Nikko looks a lot like Scruffy!



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Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

I don't know. Oliver went down 100 points overnight when we switched from dry to wet!

Niko is a sweet Russian blue - he is so mellow.
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

What does your vet mean by saying people are dying on lantus???

Second, Dr Lisa's page www.catinfo.org talks a lot about diet and crystals so please give it a good read

Jen
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

Wow, I stand corrected then. Didn't think it would make that much a difference. Perhaps that would explain why I was getting low number with Scruffy from time to time. I was giving him wet DM (which has good numbers) every few days, or sometimes I would mix it with his dry DM. Interesting.

I don't know what Scruffy is but he is the melow one as well. He likes to demand entrance under the covers and sleep with us. He plays now and then but he is usually an observer.



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Thats Bart, he came around after we bought our house. I fed him some leftover hamburger and he never left. He is my wifes little buddy.
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

This is Homer, (yes we are "Simpsons" fans). He was adopted with Scruffy when we got our apartment. He is truely a clown! Always up to no goood.



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Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

Jen & Squeak said:
What does your vet mean by saying people are dying on lantus???

Second, Dr Lisa's page http://www.catinfo.org talks a lot about diet and crystals so please give it a good read

Jen
Click to expand...

She just mentioned that there were some recent reports of problems with it "like dying". The impression I got was that its very early in the game and these reports may not of been proven yet.
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

Hi Scruffy.. I'm back.. You are scary me really bad.. the numbers are way to low.. really i would only see that vet you saw today that directed you to NOT give the insulin and to karo..etc etc.. even if she stated about the insulin going off the market.. sounds to me like she at least understands the danger your cat is in at that low of a BG reading and then giving 5u! .. I don't want you to find out to late .. so this is my opinion:

I'd post daily your BG readings on the health page.. the experienced people will direct you if you need to post elsewhere. check out the Lantus page and see how others post.. and you post on the health page in the same format. initially I'd post: 10/27 SCRUFFY-newbie-need eyes--BG #s

Example: 10/26 Khan Amps 303, +3 257 +6 325... that way everyone knows what is going on with Scruffy.

Really you love your cats.. it would be aweful to have scruffy seizure on you just for you to find out to late.. so please if the number is below 200 ask on here before you shoot the insulin if you should. The more numbers you get, switching foods will also make the amt of insulin needed to decrease..it is why it is SOOOOOOOoooo important to test test test.. be aware, have a hypo kit ready.. once you become more familiar with the procedures you will also begin to feel in more control..rt now scruffy's BG has been running way too low .
------

Pepper didn't need to have surgery..thank goodness!! Now he was lookd at and had blood work-all was good.. no change in his wt either.. went on Hill's s/d very short term and isolation except when I'm home.. He finally peed some more within 3 hrs of being home!


UNLESS done already.. here is my opinion:
As for you.. I would get on the main health page and date it like this:

10/27 Scruffy-NEWBIE need eyes to monitor BG numbers Please
In message: Condo link: and link to this conversation so others can see the background.
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

by the way Homer looks like my Pepper but my Pepper is black..that is cool!!
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

If I were you I would decrease the dose of insulin --the numbers are too low.. way too scary for me. and just think you just started the wet low carb food.. so BG numbers like you are having.. is too close to seizuring for my liking.

I would not shoot until a more expereinced person directs you. If it were me (look at my SS).. I wouldn't shoot until the BG number was over 200.. low 200s.. then I'd reduce the dose down to 3u..if by +5 or +6 hrs after shot the BG reading is still that low I'd reduce the dose even more. I'd also be asking for advice ..which will come once you post. For now I wouldn't give any insulin I'd be terrified he would seizure due to Hypo.
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

Thanks, I was thinking of starting a new post soon for advice specifically about the bg numbers. Fwiw, I checked him at midnight, 3 hours after wife gave him a bedtime snack of dry food. He was at 174. I will check again at 4 am.

I did just put a new battery in my meter as I noted the symbol popped up. Manual says it will give accurate readings until it shuts itself down, so I have to assume today #s were good.

If he is over 200 this am I plan on 2 units as vet said. We will have to go from there.

Good news on no surgery!
 
Re: Help with urination outside of box, started with diabete

good thank goodness. whoooaaa!! yes please post and ask how to link tothis posting .. you really need the more experienced eyes on this one.. You may want to ask the vet you saw today to link to this site and make you a pal..just she can see your SS daily..my vet does and has been very supportive. At least this way I have this community and my vet reviewing what is best for Khan. I'll be looking for the new post tomorrow.. until then no insulin, love up those cats of yours.. I'm going to bed. Ta Ta for now.. :)
 
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