Help needed. PLEASE

Status
Not open for further replies.
Chloeandtiny

Chloeandtiny

Member Since 2022
Hi guys me and Tiny.
Omg I am having such a headache with my vet trying to get help with tiny and getting him on to lantus. First they've made me do like 4 blood curves. Which has taken ages because I need to be on a day off! Now I've been waiting 3 days for them to call me back to give me a start dose for him on the lantus. I have called every day trying to get a call back!!
Well they finally called back today and told me Tiny can't go on lantus because its not legal here in the UK? But last week they said it was ok.
So my question is.....I can get lantus no issue. My mum is on it! But I will be doing this alone with no vets help at all. Where do I start? What dose do I start at? Should I start it alone? I don't know what to do guys xxxx
Thank you love me and Tiny xxxx
Ps he is currently on 5.5 caninsulin.
 
If I recall, ProZinc is also available in the UK and that is a pet insulin like (but better for cats) that Caninsulin.
However,with the help available here and sin you can get Lantus, I would change to Lantus. Regarding dose, the usual staring dose is 1 unit twice daily. However, since you are at higher dose of Caninsulin, staring at higher than 1 unit with Lantus is called for. However, you have not provided any BG values so it is not possible to say what dose you should start off. Many caretakers hee tst their cat's BT at home using a human meter and record BG values in a spreadsheet that other here can view. At home yu can do a cureve on the weekends too.See:
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/how-to-create-a-spreadsheet.241706/
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/how-to-use-the-spreadsheet.241653/
You can also record BG values taken at the vet. However, frequently BGs are higher at a vet because of stress.
 
Lantus is available in the UK but your vet may mean that it is normally prescribed for human use and may not be familiar with it being used with pets. If your vet will not prescribe ProZinc, ask for a prescription for insulin glargine. That is the ingredient name for Lantus. Insulin glargine also goes by the brands Semglee and Basaglar. If your vet writes the prescription for insulin glargine, your pharmacy may fill it for any of these brands. I am not sure what the prices are in the UK, but in the US, Semglee is the less expensive brand.

If you do get a prescription for insulin glargine, ask for the prescription for the pens instead of vials. You will use the pens like miniature vials and use a syringe with it instead of the pen needles. You will need to use U100 syringes instead of the U40 syringes that you may be using for the caninsulin.
 
Larry and Kitties said:
If I recall, ProZinc is also available in the UK and that is a pet insulin like (but better for cats) that Caninsulin.
However,with the help available here and sin you can get Lantus, I would change to Lantus. Regarding dose, the usual staring dose is 1 unit twice daily. However, since you are at higher dose of Caninsulin, staring at higher than 1 unit with Lantus is called for. However, you have not provided any BG values so it is not possible to say what dose you should start off. Many caretakers hee tst their cat's BT at home using a human meter and record BG values in a spreadsheet that other here can view. At home yu can do a cureve on the weekends too.See:
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/how-to-create-a-spreadsheet.241706/
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/how-to-use-the-spreadsheet.241653/
You can also record BG values taken at the vet. However, frequently BGs are higher at a vet because of stress.
Click to expand...
Larry and Kitties said:
If I recall, ProZinc is also available in the UK and that is a pet insulin like (but better for cats) that Caninsulin.
However,with the help available here and sin you can get Lantus, I would change to Lantus. Regarding dose, the usual staring dose is 1 unit twice daily. However, since you are at higher dose of Caninsulin, staring at higher than 1 unit with Lantus is called for. However, you have not provided any BG values so it is not possible to say what dose you should start off. Many caretakers hee tst their cat's BT at home using a human meter and record BG values in a spreadsheet that other here can view. At home yu can do a cureve on the weekends too.See:
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/how-to-create-a-spreadsheet.241706/
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/how-to-use-the-spreadsheet.241653/
You can also record BG values taken at the vet. However, frequently BGs are higher at a vet because of stress.
Click to expand...
 
Larry and Kitties said:
If I recall, ProZinc is also available in the UK and that is a pet insulin like (but better for cats) that Caninsulin.
However,with the help available here and sin you can get Lantus, I would change to Lantus. Regarding dose, the usual staring dose is 1 unit twice daily. However, since you are at higher dose of Caninsulin, staring at higher than 1 unit with Lantus is called for. However, you have not provided any BG values so it is not possible to say what dose you should start off. Many caretakers hee tst their cat's BT at home using a human meter and record BG values in a spreadsheet that other here can view. At home yu can do a cureve on the weekends too.See:
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/how-to-create-a-spreadsheet.241706/
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/how-to-use-the-spreadsheet.241653/
You can also record BG values taken at the vet. However, frequently BGs are higher at a vet because of stress.
Click to expand...

Hi. Thank you for your reply. Really appreciate it. I do home testing on tiny. And blood curves. I have an ipet pro blood machine.
His last curve was as follows.
Time blood
0815 22.9
0845 injection given 5.5 caninsulin
1015 22.3
1215 7.2
1415 6.3
1615 17.6
1815 22.6
2015 21.7
Injection given at 2030 5.5 Caninsulin

Sorry about it not being a spreed sheet I am technically challenged and keep all his bloods in a book. All his curves are pretty much the same. High bloods with a few hours of normal levels then straight back up again. X
 
Lisa and Witn (GA) said:
Lantus is available in the UK but your vet may mean that it is normally prescribed for human use and may not be familiar with it being used with pets. If your vet will not prescribe ProZinc, ask for a prescription for insulin glargine. That is the ingredient name for Lantus. Insulin glargine also goes by the brands Semglee and Basaglar. If your vet writes the prescription for insulin glargine, your pharmacy may fill it for any of these brands. I am not sure what the prices are in the UK, but in the US, Semglee is the less expensive brand.

If you do get a prescription for insulin glargine, ask for the prescription for the pens instead of vials. You will use the pens like miniature vials and use a syringe with it instead of the pen needles. You will need to use U100 syringes instead of the U40 syringes that you may be using for the caninsulin.
Click to expand...

Hi thank you for your reply.
Apparently according to my vets lantus is not legal for them to agree using. They want me to use prozinc but at £100 per vile I can not afford it. I can get lantus as my mum is on it. I checked and its the exact same thing some of you guys use. I will be getting u100 syringes also. I just want some guidance on where to start as the vets are useless and washed their hands of it. But he can not Continue on caninsulin. His bloods are constantly high usually in the 20s apart from 2 to 3 hours a day when the caninsulin kicks in and it comes down to normal levels. I want him to be on something that sustains levels. I can tell he feels awful, all he wants to do is lounge around and has no energy. X
 
Hi Chloe,
I'm afraid due to legalities here in the UK your vet will not prescribe Lantus due to the cascade system they use here.
You need to speak with your vet about changing Tiny over to Prozinc asap (prozinc is designed for especially for cats.)
Caninsulin is designed for dogs hence the name and Lantus used for humans will only be prescribed if the other two have not worked due to the cascade system they use here in the UK.
Read about it here, it's UK law i'm afraid.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-cascade-prescribing-unauthorised-medicines#about-the-cascade
Talk to you vet about Prozinc and explain this is made for cats with diabetes. A lot of old school vets still use Caninsulin because it's all they know.
 
Chloeandtiny said:
Hi thank you for your reply.
Apparently according to my vets lantus is not legal for them to agree using. They want me to use prozinc but at £100 per vile I can not afford it. I can get lantus as my mum is on it. I checked and its the exact same thing some of you guys use. I will be getting u100 syringes also. I just want some guidance on where to start as the vets are useless and washed their hands of it. But he can not Continue on caninsulin. His bloods are constantly high usually in the 20s apart from 2 to 3 hours a day when the caninsulin kicks in and it comes down to normal levels. I want him to be on something that sustains levels. I can tell he feels awful, all he wants to do is lounge around and has no energy. X
Click to expand...

Hi Chloe,
Your vet wants £100 for prozinc? Ask for a prescription and buy it online for £50 to £60 and it will last for months.
Caninsulin does have that quick in and out effect but Prozinc is a lot less harsh and has a steadier curve that lasts longer.
 
Teetee (UK) said:
Hi Chloe,
I'm afraid due to legalities here in the UK your vet will not prescribe Lantus due to the cascade system they use here.
You need to speak with your vet about changing Tiny over to Prozinc asap (prozinc is designed for especially for cats.)
Caninsulin is designed for dogs hence the name and Lantus used for humans will only be prescribed if the other two have not worked due to the cascade system they use here in the UK.
Read about it here, it's UK law i'm afraid.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-cascade-prescribing-unauthorised-medicines#about-the-cascade
Talk to you vet about Prozinc and explain this is made for cats with diabetes. A lot of old school vets still use Caninsulin because it's all they know.
Click to expand...

Hi thank you for your reply.
I don't need them to prescibe it. I can get it by myself as my mum is on it. I have already asked about prozinc. I don't know if its a UK thing but they want £200 for a vile and syringes and £100 there after per each vile. Which mum can not afford. Tiny is actually her cat but I am living here also. So through researching I found we could use lantus. Which we can get. I just need to pay for syringes. So instead of being helpful and guiding us through it. They have said no. I've tried changing vet but there is massive waiting lists atm here in the UK. I have everything ready to go for him. I just need some guidance on where to start. If you look at previous replies I've posted his most recent blood curve. I home test myself. He is luckily a very chilled baby. X
 
Teetee (UK) said:
Hi Chloe,
Your vet wants £100 for prozinc? Ask for a prescription and buy it online for £50 to £60 and it will last for months.
Caninsulin does have that quick in and out effect but Prozinc is a lot less harsh and has a steadier curve that lasts longer.
Click to expand...

Hi :)
They actually wanted 200 for the prozinc and syringes then 100 per vile there after. I can get lantus for free. Would just need the different syringes. X
 
I don't know about that Chloe, if you start Tiny on Lantus through you own choice then your vet will probably refuse to see you again, as i said it's illegal for vets here in the UK to prescribe human medicines to animals unless animal medicines are not working. Your vets next step by law is to try Prozinc and if the does not work with Tiny then your vet will move on to Lantus.
As for dosing etc with Lantus i'm afraid i can't help with that one as my cat uses Prozinc.
Here are some links created by @Elizabeth and Bertie especially for UK users with diabetic cats, they are very very helpful.
Low carb foods list
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1J5JpMe6TDXrHq_aTl9hUtHy6Gs9oRBqlz4nPGKxtySA/pubhtml
UK information page.
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB...-vit-b12-and-other-need-to-know-stuff.137376/
 
Teetee (UK) said:
I don't know about that Chloe, if you start Tiny on Lantus through you own choice then your vet will probably refuse to see you again, as i said it's illegal for vets here in the UK to prescribe human medicines to animals unless animal medicines are not working. Your vets next step by law is to try Prozinc and if the does not work with Tiny then your vet will move on to Lantus.
As for dosing etc with Lantus i'm afraid i can't help with that one as my cat uses Prozinc.
Here are some links created by @Elizabeth and Bertie especially for UK users with diabetic cats, they are very very helpful.
Low carb foods list
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1J5JpMe6TDXrHq_aTl9hUtHy6Gs9oRBqlz4nPGKxtySA/pubhtml
UK information page.
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB...-vit-b12-and-other-need-to-know-stuff.137376/
Click to expand...

Oh really? I didn't know about them not seeing him. Hmmmm that's tricky. Thank you for the links. I will have a read of them.
Tiny os my mums cat and just can't afford what they want for prozinc. It's why we want to go the lantus route and people have had good results. It's so stressful I a at my wits end. I just want him to be well and have some energy bless him. Thank you for your advice x
 
Chloeandtiny said:
Hi. Thank you for your reply. Really appreciate it. I do home testing on tiny. And blood curves. I have an ipet pro blood machine.
His last curve was as follows.
Time blood
0815 22.9
0845 injection given 5.5 caninsulin
1015 22.3
1215 7.2
1415 6.3
1615 17.6
1815 22.6
2015 21.7
Injection given at 2030 5.5 Caninsulin

Sorry about it not being a spreed sheet I am technically challenged and keep all his bloods in a book. All his curves are pretty much the same. High bloods with a few hours of normal levels then straight back up again. X
Click to expand...

This page will help you set up your spreadsheet, and Chloe if you do struggle with it there is always somebody here to help you set it up so don't worry about that.
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/how-to-create-a-spreadsheet.241706/
 
ProZinc is also a good insulin for cats. I agree that you should ask your vet for the prescription and order it somewhere else. I am in the US so I do not know where you can order it in the UK. But I am sure our UK members can help you. I think any sites that sell pet prescription medications can give you a quote without having a prescription on file
 
Here is a link helping us to help you link. If you noticed, our members have some basic information about their cat's in their signature. This helps us to not pester you by asking the same questions (your cat's name, insulin type, date of diagnosis, etc.) repeatedly. We also have a link to our spreadsheet in our signature. We are very numbers driven. The spreadsheet is a record of your cat's progress. By linking it in your signature, we can follow along and provide feedback should you need the help.

If you need help with this or setting up the spreadsheet just ask, we have a member who will contact you

Take a look at anyone's spreadsheet and you will get an idea how we track our cats BG
It's really not that hard, there is a column for the
Date, then AMPS (AM Pre Shot which is Tiny's BG ) Unit column then +1 which is her BG one hour after shooting insulin
+2 her BG two hours after shooting the insulin and so on until you get to
PMPS. Night time test and so on
 
Last edited:
Chloeandtiny said:
Apparently according to my vets lantus is not legal for them to agree using. They want me to use prozinc but at £100 per vile I can not afford it.
Click to expand...
Hi Chloe,

Human insulins such as lantus/glargine and levemir/detemir can be prescribed for cats in the UK, but the requirement is that a veterinary insulin should be tried first.
If there is not a veterinary insulin that works sufficiently well in the cat then the vet can prescribe a human insulin under the 'cascade system' of prescribing (that just means that if a medication isn't sufficiently effective a vet can go to the next thing down the list, which may mean using human meds not licensed for animals).
Some of us in the UK do use human insulins for our cats. (Both of my diabetics have been on human insulins.) And the RVC are very familiar with the use of Lantus/glargine since they used this in their remission trials a few years back alongside Prozinc. A vet at the RVC even helped a member here, by persuading her vet to let her have Lantus...

As to Prozinc, it may be cheaper to buy that with a prescription from your vet. Quite a few UK folks do this. The cost will be the cost of the prescription + cost of insulin + refrigerated delivery. Some people find they only make significant savings if they get the vet to prescribe more than one vial at a time.

I wrote down some costs of Caninsulin and Prozinc back in December, and will see if I can upload or copy that here...

- - - -
BUYING INSULIN FOR YOUR CAT


CANINSULIN AND PROZINC


The first insulin you buy for your cat will be sold to you by your vet.

You can choose to continue to buy insulin from your vet. However, it is often cheaper (sometimes very much cheaper) to buy insulin from an online pharmacy with a prescription from your vet.


The vet is allowed to charge a reasonable cost for writing you a prescription. On average this may be around £15, but it can a few quid more or less than this.

Once you have your prescription you can upload it to the online pharmacy and buy your insulin.


The cost of buying insulin with a prescription will be:

Cost of prescription + cost of insulin + cost of delivery.

If you add up the cost of your insulin you can see how much you may save by buying online.


Greater savings can be made if you can get your vet to prescribe more than one item.

If buying Prozinc that means the vet prescribing at least two 10ml vials (Prozinc is only available in 10ml vials). Occasionally a vet may prescribe more.

If buying Caninsulin a particularly good way to buy is to ask the vet to prescribe a pack of 10 x 2.5ml mini vials. This seems to be the most cost-effective way to buy Caninsulin.



CURRENT COSTS OF CANINSULIN & PROZINC – 16/12/2021

Here are some examples from some popular online pharmacies. The insulin may also be bought elsewhere.


PROZINC (only available in a 10ml vial)


Weldricks - £52.48 (next day delivery from £5.48)

https://www.weldricks.co.uk/products/prozinc-insulin-for-cats-40iuml-vial-10ml

Petdrugsonline - £52.49 (next day delivery from £5.99)

https://www.petdrugsonline.co.uk/prozinc-insulin-for-cats-and-dogs

Animed - £53.28 (postage £7.50)

https://www.animeddirect.co.uk/prozinc-40-iu-ml-suspension-for-injection-for-cats-dogs-10ml

Petprescription - £54.06 (next day delivery from £5.99)

https://www.petprescription.co.uk/prozinc-insulin-for-cats-dogs

Hyperdrug - £56.89 (postage cost not currently shown on website)

https://www.hyperdrug.co.uk/prozinc...ction-for-cats-dogs-10ml/productinfo/PROZINCI

Viovet – £57.14 (postage cost not currently shown on website)

https://www.viovet.co.uk/ProZinc-Insulin/c35418/





CANINSULIN


10ml vials

Petdrugsonline – £21.98 (next day delivery from £5.99)

https://www.petdrugsonline.co.uk/caninsulin-40iu-ml-10ml

Petprescription - £22.64 (next day delivery from £5.99)

https://www.petprescription.co.uk/caninsulin-40iu-ml-10ml-cats-dogs

Animed - £22.81 (postage £7.50)

https://www.animeddirect.co.uk/caninsulin-40-iu-ml-suspension-for-injection-for-dogs-and-cats

Weldricks - £31.17 (next day delivery from £5.48)

https://www.weldricks.co.uk/products/caninsulin-vial-40iuml-10ml

Hyperdrug - £32.45 (postage cost not currently shown on website)

https://www.hyperdrug.co.uk/caninsulin-40iuml/productinfo/CANINSULIN



10 x 2.5ml vials

Petdrugsonline – £59.99 (next day delivery from £5.99)

https://www.petdrugsonline.co.uk/caninsulin-40iu-ml-25ml-10-x-2-5ml-vials

Hyperdrug – £83.19 (postage cost not currently shown on website)

https://www.hyperdrug.co.uk/caninsulin-40iuml/productinfo/CANINSULIN




VETPEN cartridges 10 x 2.7ml


Petdrugsonline - £68.48 (next day delivery from £5.99)

https://www.petdrugsonline.co.uk/caninsulin-cartridges-40iu-ml

Petprescription - £70.54 (next day delivery from £5.99)

https://www.petprescription.co.uk/caninsulin-cartridges-40iu-ml-dogs-cats

Animed - £70.63 (postage £7.50)https://www.animeddirect.co.uk/caninsulin-vetpen-cartridges-2.7ml-suspension-for-injection-10-pack?msclkid=2b9d1a3f7a911162813e7b8403eba1c9&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=POM | Caninsulin (Diabetes) OOS&utm_term=caninsulin cartridge&utm_content=Caninsulin | VetPen | Cartridges

Hyperdrug - £78.69 (postage cost not currently shown on website)

https://www.hyperdrug.co.uk/caninsulin-vetpen-cartridges-27ml-pack-of-10/productinfo/VETPENCAR






Info written 16/12/2021
 
Last edited:
...And here's some info on buying syringes in the UK.
Again, the prices are from December last year.

- - - -

WHICH SYRINGES DO I NEED?
Veterinary insulins such as Prozinc and Caninsulin are 'U40' insulins, which just means they have 40 units of insulin per ml.
They are intended to be used with corresponding U40 syringes.

Human insulins such as Levemir and Lantus are 'U100' insulins, which means they have 100 units of insulin per ml.
U100 insulins absolutely must be used with corresponding U100 syringes.

It's likely that the first syringes you get will be sold to you by your vet.
You can continue to get syringes from your vet if you wish. However, it is usually considerably cheaper to buy them online. Note: It is NOT necessary to have a prescription in order to buy syringes.

We strongly recommend getting syringes that have half-unit markings on the barrel. This makes it so much easier to measure small doses of insulin.


BUYING U40 SYRINGES
Brand name Caninsulin and Prozinc syringes can be bought online. But there are also generic syringes that are very much cheaper.


The two most popular brands of generic U40 syringes used in the UK Feline Diabetes Support Group are VetUK's own brand syringes, and 'Sol-Vet' syringes which are available in a number of different places (although availability seems to vary quite a bit).
The VetUK syringes cost less than the Sol-Vet syringes, typically about half the price. And many people in the group use the VetUK syringes and are happy with them. But some people prefer the Sol-Vet syringes to the VetUK ones and cite reasons such as 'sharper needles' and 'clearer markings'.

Here is the link to VetUK's 0.5ml U40 syringes with half unit markings. These currently cost £13.99 for a box of 100 (price checked on 09.12.2021):www.vetuk.co.uk/veterinary-supplies-insulin-syringes-c-141_154/vetuk-0-5ml-u40-insulin-syringe-with-needle-box-of-100-p-11335

The Sol-Vet U40 syringes with half unit markings are available in a number of different places. Here's a few places they can be bought.
Viovet - Price currently £21.60 for a box of 100 (price checked on 09.12.2021):www.viovet.co.uk/SOL-V-Insulin-U-40-Syringe-Needles/c40721/

Hyperdrug - Price currently £22.69 for a box of 100 (price checked on 09.12.2021):www.hyperdrug.co.uk/sol-vet-u-40-insulin-syringes-caninsulin-alternative/productinfo/CANINSUALT

Petdrugsonline - Price currently £25.98 for a box of 100 (price checked on 09.12.2021):www.petdrugsonline.co.uk/sol-m-u40-insulin-caninsulin-syringes-0-5ml


WANT U40 SYRINGES WITH A SMALLER BARREL?
The above are all 0.5ml syringes, which just means the maximum capacity of the syringe is 0.5ml.
Sol-Vet U40 syringes are also available with a smaller sized barrel, just 0.3ml. And some people find smaller syringes much easier to use.
The 0.3ml are not so widely available. But they are currently available from UKMedi:
UKMedi - 0.3ml U40 syringes, £22.99 for a box of 100 (price checked on 09.12.2021):ukmedi.co.uk/sol-vet-0-3ml-29g-0-5-inch-u40-syringe-with-fixed-needle/


BUYING U100 SYRINGES
U100 insulin syringes are made to be used with human insulins. And because of this they are quite widely available.
Again, it is important to get syringes with half-unit markings.
Most people in the group who use U100 syringes buy the 'BD Micro-fine + Demi' 0.3ml syringes. These are usually very easily available from a number of places.

All Day Pharmacy - Price currently £12 for a box of 100 (price checked on 09.12.2021):www.alldaypharmacy.co.uk/products/BD-Micro%252dFine-Demi-0.3ml-Syringe-0.3mm-%2830G%29-x-8mm-%252d-Box-of-100.html

OnBuy - Price currently £13.74 for a box of 100 (price checked on 09.12.2021):www.onbuy.com/gb/bd-micro-fine-demi-03ml-syringe-03mm-30g-x-8mm~c7356~p25088452/

VetUK - Price currently £18.79 for a box of 100 (price checked on 09.12.2021):www.vetuk.co.uk/veterinary-supplies-insulin-syringes-c-141_154/bd-microfine-demi-0-3ml-u100-insulin-syringes-box-of-100-p-296

 
Elizabeth and Bertie said:
...And here's some info on buying syringes in the UK.
Again, the prices are from December last year.

- - - -
WANT U40 SYRINGES WITH A SMALLER BARREL?
Sol-Vet U40 syringes are also available with a smaller sized barrel, just 0.3ml. And some people find smaller syringes much easier to use.
The 0.3ml are not so widely available. But they are currently available from UKMedi:
UKMedi - 0.3ml U40 syringes, £22.99 for a box of 100 (price checked on 09.12.2021):ukmedi.co.uk/sol-vet-0-3ml-29g-0-5-inch-u40-syringe-with-fixed-needle/
Click to expand...

I have found these U40 syringes online at a good price, so good a price i went over and bought a box as i only live about ten miles away. £15.39 inc vat. £20.38 inc vat and delivery.
https://www.thevetstore.net/shop/sol-vet-u40-insulin-syringe/
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top