Help Needed.. Merry Christmas.. thoughts regarding Logans Dose

Logan & Sandy

Logan & Sandy

Active Member
Thoughts.... Recently I ran a curve and submitted it to vet over the weekend 12/26/20.I thought the curve looked ok considering.. But he seems like he's going higher as his numbers are; 12/27 bg269 at +6 and a bg347 at +8 and this mornings amps was bg431.. ouch!! HE'S running high.. he still seems like hes doing better.. still waiting to see what vet says.. may not hear from them till either later today or tomarrow.. maybe he's still bouncing..? My vet recently had me lower logans dose from 1.5 to 1 unit of prozinc.. since then his numbers have been higher.. i've tried to test him more, (altho. vet told me NOT to..and again not to dwell on the numbers.. to go on how logan acts...) I would like to know your thoughts... my guess is that he should be between 1 unit and 1.5 units..like 1.25.. see updated spread sheet..Vet emphasied for me not to change his dose and to keep it at 1 unit till his next curve..i ran a mini curve today,, all comments welcome..
 
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Well, testing can help you to see those too low BG numbers coming, and intervene with food if needed.
Sometimes cats don't show many symptoms of going too low. Or those symptoms are very subtle.
We like to encourage home testing here. But some vets disagree and think it can drive a cat owner to distraction, to worry too much. I can see both sides of the issue.

Things like Logan's appetite and the 5 P's (peeing, purring, playing, preening, pooping) can be a good assessment of how Logan is feeling. If he's hanging out by the water dish all the time and still drinking copious amounts of water, or peeing huge clumps in the litter box, then you know things are not going well.

When does the vet want you to run the next curve?
Was that dose on 12/21 1.1U? Or was that a typo?

Right now Logan is all over the place on dose and his BG readings. He's dropped pretty low on the 1U dose, so I think that increasing to 1.25U may be premature.

p.s. Please remember to add a new tab to the SS, for 2021. Here is the link to the thread on how to do that.
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/2021-spreadsheetsplease-read-and-keep-bumped.239458/
 
Deb & Wink said:
Well, testing can help you to see those too low BG numbers coming, and intervene with food if needed.
Sometimes cats don't show many symptoms of going too low. Or those symptoms are very subtle.
We like to encourage home testing here. But some vets disagree and think it can drive a cat owner to distraction, to worry too much. I can see both sides of the issue.

Things like Logan's appetite and the 5 P's (peeing, purring, playing, preening, pooping) can be a good assessment of how Logan is feeling. If he's hanging out by the water dish all the time and still drinking copious amounts of water, or peeing huge clumps in the litter box, then you know things are not going well.

When does the vet want you to run the next curve?
Was that dose on 12/21 1.1U? Or was that a typo?

Right now Logan is all over the place on dose and his BG readings. He's dropped pretty low on the 1U dose, so I think that increasing to 1.25U may be premature.

p.s. Please remember to add a new tab to the SS, for 2021. Here is the link to the thread on how to do that.
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/2021-spreadsheetsplease-read-and-keep-bumped.239458/
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hi Deb. hope you had a nice Merry Christmas,.. and thankyou for replying. When i put 1.1 for dec 21 what i meant was the dose was just a smidge over the black line,, like 1.10.. the vet said 10 days for the curve which would have been yesterday,.. she said i could run the curve myself and give her the numbers, as i whined a bit about the costs.. running a curve every 10 days or so at the vet $$$. So I ran the curve today pretty religiously, ,,. I plan to give her the numbers tomarrow or monday/tuesday.. they are usually crazy busy on mondays.. and tomarrow being satur, she may not be working not sure,.. today i think his curve went pretty well.. and tomarrow will be a new day,.. logan is using the scratching post, not drinking as much water as he used to and overall seems to be doing pretty good.. after today (altho its only 1 day) I question even raising the dose too,, I'd like to see more consistency..it will be interesting to see what vet does say,, take care Sandy
 
Just double checking that the 1.1U was correct.

Curves are certainly less expensive if you do them at home. Cost wise, it's the price of test strips and some of your time. Can't beat that cost!

It's likely that Logan dropped lower overnight, 12/25/20, which is why he bounced up into the red range. Reds (and black range) BG numbers usually indicate bouncing. If anything, the 1U dose may be a bit too much for Logan. I'm saying that because he went from those red BG's down to the low blues in only 6 hours. That low BG is not quite low enough to reduce per our Prozinc SLGS protocol. But if there is anyway you can get a test sometime during night, around that time, you may catch a low BG that would say to reduce the dose.

For now, holding the 1U steady would still be my recommendation.

Hope you had a nice Xmas, and today was Boxing Day. Cats do love boxes, so in my mind, it's a holiday made just for them.:joyful:
 
Thankyou so much for what you said.. i simply didn't realize that possibility! the 1.1 indicates that he got something close to 1 unit +a black line marker on syringe more,.. like 1.10? so that wasnt a mistake. I will actively try to get more readings during nite.. my question is that if i am able to find his nadir at nite.. my guess +6 or possibly +7 if its low like how low between 30-100?? that indicates hes on too high of a dose?? i dropped off paperwork at vet today, gave it to a tech..as they were closed..(my guess open for ER) and will be interesting to see what they say.. I will try for the moment to keep his dose as close to 1 unit as possible and not a hair over and see what happens.. I do remember when they raised him up to 2 units and he dropped rather low like i think 33-34 and i talked to this group, and it was suggested to lower his dose to 1.5.. my vet encouraged me NOT to do that.. but i went along with the group,. and sure enough a week or so later vet tells me to lower his dose to 1 unit..hmm.very interesting,,.. well enjoy boxxing day with the kitties.. how many do u have?? we have 8.. most are seniors..youngest is 10.. PS. Logan has been using the scratching post, he played with a fake mouse today, hes not drinking as much water as he first used to,.. and his fur is shinier... smile.. so some things are happening,,, but he also has a HUGE appetite!
 
Notes in the Remarks column on the right hand side of the SS can be useful, when something out of the ordinary occurs. Like that 1.1U dose. Or even notes like the shinier fur and decreased water consumption are good to see. Those are good signs of improvement in his symptoms and condition!

If Logan drops below 90 mg/dL (< 90 ), then with our SLGS dosing protocol for Prozinc, he would be due for an automatic dose reduction of 0.25U. So you would reduce the current dose by a quarter unit (1/4 unit less). From 1U down to 0.75U.

If Logan drops <50, that indicates the dose is too high. At least to me it does.

It can be safer to reduce the dose, when you get a really low number. Anything <50 is considered to be too close to hypoglycemic territory, and you need to feed to bring those BG numbers back to a safer level. We have a saying here, one of many. "Feed the 40's"

We probably see more diabetic cats here in a week than most vets do in a year. We don't know all cat illnesses and conditions like vets do, but we know diabetes pretty well. Vets have many, many different clients, and can't always spend the time looking at the details like we try to do here.

p.s. I'm down to only 1 cat right now. She is enjoying being a spoiled only kitty and is around Logan's age. Dancer got a new Yeoww! Catnip banana for the holidays, and she is loving it!
 
Deb & Wink said:
Notes in the Remarks column on the right hand side of the SS can be useful, when something out of the ordinary occurs. Like that 1.1U dose. Or even notes like the shinier fur and decreased water consumption are good to see. Those are good signs of improvement in his symptoms and condition!

If Logan drops below 90 mg/dL (< 90 ), then with our SLGS dosing protocol for Prozinc, he would be due for an automatic dose reduction of 0.25U. So you would reduce the current dose by a quarter unit (1/4 unit less). From 1U down to 0.75U.

If Logan drops <50, that indicates the dose is too high. At least to me it does.

It can be safer to reduce the dose, when you get a really low number. Anything <50 is considered to be too close to hypoglycemic territory, and you need to feed to bring those BG numbers back to a safer level. We have a saying here, one of many. "Feed the 40's"

We probably see more diabetic cats here in a week than most vets do in a year. We don't know all cat illnesses and conditions like vets do, but we know diabetes pretty well. Vets have many, many different clients, and can't always spend the time looking at the details like we try to do here.

p.s. I'm down to only 1 cat right now. She is enjoying being a spoiled only kitty and is around Logan's age. Dancer got a new Yeoww! Catnip banana for the holidays, and she is loving it!
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th
Deb & Wink said:
Notes in the Remarks column on the right hand side of the SS can be useful, when something out of the ordinary occurs. Like that 1.1U dose. Or even notes like the shinier fur and decreased water consumption are good to see. Those are good signs of improvement in his symptoms and condition!

If Logan drops below 90 mg/dL (< 90 ), then with our SLGS dosing protocol for Prozinc, he would be due for an automatic dose reduction of 0.25U. So you would reduce the current dose by a quarter unit (1/4 unit less). From 1U down to 0.75U.

If Logan drops <50, that indicates the dose is too high. At least to me it does.

It can be safer to reduce the dose, when you get a really low number. Anything <50 is considered to be too close to hypoglycemic territory, and you need to feed to bring those BG numbers back to a safer level. We have a saying here, one of many. "Feed the 40's"

We probably see more diabetic cats here in a week than most vets do in a year. We don't know all cat illnesses and conditions like vets do, but we know diabetes pretty well. Vets have many, many different clients, and can't always spend the time looking at the details like we try to do here.

p.s. I'm down to only 1 cat right now. She is enjoying being a spoiled only kitty and is around Logan's age. Dancer got a new Yeoww! Catnip banana for the holidays, and she is loving it!
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thankyou for that..THANKS A LOTTTTTTTT! it simply amazes me that my vet continues to tell me don't worry about the numbers.. don't test that much.. or if u do do it sporatically.. hell if i listened at sq. one.. i would have kept logan at 2 units for 6 months per vet and then bring him in then for a curve..CRaZY! saying that he still lived if he went hypo.... argghh.... ps its good to spoil a kitty. each cat has different personalities.. we are a bit overwhelmed here.. but all is good pretty much..i have one cat thats a black n white tuxedo that has thyroid issues and gets meds twice a day and another senior that screams if he doesnt get enough wet food.. and i think has dementia.. and another that i think is developing hip issues.. hopefully i'm wrong.. but we love them ALL.. A LOT..
 
hi Deb.. i was able to test logan during nite last nite, like +6 his bg166 and +8 his bg289.. this morning his AMPS was bg384.. arghh.. do you think he still is bouncing?? how long does it take to get a pet stabilized.. or does it happen simply when it does?/ arggh,.. ps i think logans Nadir is about +6. take care.
 
Some cats bounce for a long, long time. Yes, I'd say that Logan is still bouncing.

Thank you so much for testing Logan last night. That gives us some more clues as to what is going on with him.

Getting a cat stabilized and then into better BG ranges takes as long as it takes.
 
thankyou for that, today when testing him at +6 he was bg279 then at +9 he was bg363... arggh. if i give him 2 mouthfuls of wet ff food after i test him, that shouldn't affect the next batch of numbers saying its a few hours later right??.. maybe cuzz he's still bouncing that he's so high? am gonna try and get a test in late tonite.. hopefully.
 
Feeding a cat after the mid-point of the 12 hour insulin cycle can raise the numbers later. So we suggest that you try not to feed much after +6, unless there are special circumstances. A small treat would be better. Think a pea sized amount of food or some sort of pure protein treat.
 
Deb & Wink said:
Feeding a cat after the mid-point of the 12 hour insulin cycle can raise the numbers later. So we suggest that you try not to feed much after +6, unless there are special circumstances. A small treat would be better. Think a pea sized amount of food or some sort of pure protein treat.
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SHOOT.. OK THX FOR THIS.. maybe thats why his numbers are so high today.. i had thought if i waited 2 hours 2 test it wouldnt affect things
 
The reason the food after about +6 can influence the BG numbers more, is because the insulin is used up by about the mid-point of the 12 hour cycle. So there isn't enough insulin left in the bloodstream to counterbalance the food intake.

Does that make more sense?
 
Deb & Wink said:
Feeding a cat after the mid-point of the 12 hour insulin cycle can raise the numbers later. So we suggest that you try not to feed much after +6, unless there are special circumstances. A small treat would be better. Think a pea sized amount of food or some sort of pure protein treat.
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so then why the 2 hour fast then only/?
 
Deb & Wink said:
The reason the food after about +6 can influence the BG numbers more, is because the insulin is used up by about the mid-point of the 12 hour cycle. So there isn't enough insulin left in the bloodstream to counterbalance the food intake.

Does that make more sense?
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yes.. that does... thankyou LOTS!!!
 
The 2 hour fast is for the pre-shot test. That is so that the pre-shot BG is not food influenced.
You don't want to be giving insulin to a cat, if the blood glucose is too low. If the cat has recently eaten before the pre-shot test, that pre-shot test can give you a false sense of what the BG level is/ will be when the insulin kicks into action in about 2 hours with Prozinc.

Any other tests, we expect there to be some food influence.
But we want to balance that food intake out with when there is insulin available to process that food.
So it's better to not feed within 2 hours of the pre-shot test.
It's better to not feed after the nadir, or mid-point of the insulin cycle.

Special circumstances would include things like a cat that is not eating well. Then you feed whenever your cat is willing to eat.
Another special condition is when the cat has ketones or has recently had DKA. In that instance, food + insulin will help to stave off ketones.
Or if your cat is severely underweight. Then the cat needs more food to compensate and gain weight.

It's a bit of a balancing act.
 
thankyou! Logan has a HugE appetite.. he can easily eat 3 full cans of fancy feast twice a day,,, easily, good to know not to feed after Nadir.. Logan isn't as thin as he was and is starting to have the weight of a normal cat, thankgoodness and
thankyou..
 
Deb & Wink,, i was able to get a bg269 at +6 and a bg347 at +8 and this mornings amps was bg431.. ouch!! HE'S running high.. he still seems like hes doing better.. still waiting to see what vet says.. may not hear from them till either later today or tomarrow.. maybe he's still bouncing..?
 
I do think that Logan could use a bit more juice (insulin being the juice). How do you feel about increasing the dose to 1.25U?
Hope your vet gets back to you soon.

Unregulated diabetic cats can be extremely hungry. I remember when I first fostered Wink, that he was eating a ton of food, around 11 ounces if I remember correctly.

p.s. To tag someone, you need to put the @ sign before their user name. So this is a tag for you. @Logan & Sandy
You forgot to put the @ sign before my user name. I have my alerts set to see notifications when another reply is made to a thread I'm following and have replied to. So I did see this new information from you.

You changed your user name! Cool!
 
thankyou deb and wink.. i agree with you regarding the increase to 1.25.. i've been thinking that he may need this for a while. no news from vet as of yet.. i plan to call them shortly.. they are usually very busy on mondays. I will wait to hear from them. Logan has been incredibly hungry for quite a while now..like weeks.. and thanks for telling me about adding the @ in front of names.. when i checked Logan today at +6 his bg156 unlike last nite at +6 he was 269 then went to 347 at+8 etc.. and then in the amps he was 431! I WILL update this once i hear from vet,
 
Deb & Wink said:
I do think that Logan could use a bit more juice (insulin being the juice). How do you feel about increasing the dose to 1.25U?
Hope your vet gets back to you soon.

Unregulated diabetic cats can be extremely hungry. I remember when I first fostered Wink, that he was eating a ton of food, around 11 ounces if I remember correctly.

p.s. To tag someone, you need to put the @ sign before their user name. So this is a tag for you. @Logan & Sandy
You forgot to put the @ sign before my user name. I have my alerts set to see notifications when another reply is made to a thread I'm following and have replied to. So I did see this new information from you.

You changed your user name! Cool!
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Still haven't heard from vet after i left a msg today Mon. and dropped off spreadsheets on saturday. I decided to go a smidge over the 1.unit like 1.10% ..10% over the black line on the syringe. he continues to run high, the pmps was bg444.
 
Deb & Wink said:
It may take Logan a few cycles to react to the slightly higher dose.

Remember, it's the nadir you want to see lower.
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@Deb & Wink &Wink i'm hoping for lower nadir numbers.. took a reading today about 230pm+7 and it was 234bg.. but last nite at (118am)+6 bg398 then at (319am)+8bg356.. was surprized it was so high,, I hope that with the slightly higher dose (a smidge to 1.10%) that it might help.. and if not then we do your suggested at 1.25.. still havern't heard from vet.. she can call as late as 630pm calif time,, this is why i decided to just go up a smidge .10% hoping to hear from her,. ps a few cycles means 6 total doses??
 
@Deb & Wink Vet finally called. said she was real happy with Logan's last curve i did on 12/25/20.. said its the low numbers I need to be concerned with which she liked in that curve of 12/25/20,..and not worry about the high numbers unless ofcourse he's real high like in the 5or600+,, and be concerned about the Nadir,. lowest numbers.. that she felt i was doing a good job, asked how he's doing clinically which i said he's doing well using scratching post, fur looks good played a little with his brother. She encouraged me to keep him at the 1 unit and to try not to change things,. (i still think he should be at 1.1) i didn't mention that, as she strongly believes he should stay at the 1 unit.
 
Vet also said that if he wants to eat 3 cans at each meal let him,, as i mentioned he has a huge appetite. Its hard for me to ignore Logans high numbers.. not sure what changed since Christmas.. everythings been the same as far as i am aware of.
 
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