Hello - I'm new to the FDMB - introducing Darby

Status
Not open for further replies.

Darby

New Member
Hi All,
I finally have registered on this excellent message board. So here goes!
Darby was diagnosed July 2011. I tried food therapy to lower his BG but no luck and then after a further delay acct I was going out of town and then he had his first bladder infection (which the vet wanted to clear up first ) - he finally started insulin on Oct 25th. Now I regret all the above decisions. I've been told that these delays will likely mean no remission. He started on Glargine and the numbers just kept going up - sometimes lower ( but never below 8 ( well once 7.6 ). These lower numbers were always around 11:30 - midnight so I thought that was his nadir time. But there was no consistency with this theory from week to week. Sometimes at midnight the numbers were around 19 or 20. They were always high when the vet wanted to do a reading, at the office usually about 6 hours after his morning RX, and so she would raise the amount. I wanted a second opinion and found an internal medicine specialist and we decided to switch to Levimir. Same scenario but even stranger.
Jan 6th - 17.4 @ 11:39 PM. on 4 units -- Jan 13th-- 2.6 @ 11:52 PM on 5 units ---Jan 16th 14.2 @ 11:52 P.M on 4.5 units - considered stable after a good glucose curve on Jan 19th - readings every 4 hours on 4.5 units. My specialist vet said I didn't have to test for a month. But on Jan 26th I tested again because of how Darby looked and his numbers were between 16 and 18. I took in a urine sample and there was blood so he was on antibiotics for 14 days and increased to 5 units. His reading went higher than it had ever been on Feb 26th - 23.7 @ 1:12 PM. Today I took him to a different vet because my vet is out of the country until March 6th. A urine sample is being sent away for a culture to be done. It appears that even though there's blood, there's no bacteria detected from a routing urinalysis. I wonder what that means? There's no evidence that his nadir is late in the day. In fact, the nadir to me is unknown. This current vet seems to think it's very soon after the first insulin shot. He has not prescribed any further antibiotics until the results of the culture are back. Darby is on 5.5 units now and to me he doesn't look right. I was feeding Menu Food brands which are Special Kitty from Walmart and Priority from Safeway - same formulas different prices and the carb % were provided by the nutritionist at Menu Foods ( 905-826-3870 x 228 ). I only feed below 5% and choices without fruits and vegetables ( vet's request ). My vet seemed to have a problem with the Special Kitty and suggested the Whiskas flat packs so I phoned for the ME on that too and was told all flavors are around 6 % calories from carbs. I question that but am giving it a try although it appears the food choices are not the problem in Darby's case. He is not a twice a day plus a snack at 9 PM eater but likes several meals and his weight is 14 lbs 14 oz right now. The Priority and Special Kitty labels ( in Canada ) have meat as the first ingredient. I want to return to these brands. More than anything I want Darby to be regulated and happy.
Thanks for listening and any advice will be greatly appreciated.
Darby's caregiver - Vicki
 
Hi and Welcome Vicki and Darby :-D I love Darby's name.
You have come to the right place to help your kitty. You will get lots of advise and suggestions, support, and hand holding on this site. The first thing you'll want to learn is how to test your kitty's blood sugar at home. And then to set up a spreadsheet, so that we can see how he does and help you to adjust the dose.
I'm glad you found us.
If you have any questions ask away.
 
http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=50130

Here is the link that will help you to set up a spreadsheet. You want the world ss. You enter your numbers as per your meter on the world page and these will automatically convert to numbers the Americans can understand on the other page.

Don't listen to the vet about home testing. To keep your kitty safe and to help others to be able to help you you want to test before every shot and and at least once more around nadir. It is also best to do a curve once a week, had you been doing this you would now know when Darby's nadir is - silly vet! Doing this also means you will have no need to pay for the vet to run curves for you or to put Darby through that stress. Darby's stress at the vet also means that the numbers they get will not be as accurate as the numbers you get when you do a curve at home with a relaxed Darby.

The reason you were finding no consistency from lantus was probably due to bounces. When a cat is used to having higher BG levels and those numbers drop, e.g. to 8, the cat's liver will step in and release stored sugar and a few other bits and pieces which result in a bounce to higher numbers for up to 72 hours afterwards. Over time the liver gets used to being in lower numbers again and this should stop and the numbers flatten out. Because treatment was delayed this process would likely take a bit longer for Darby because his liver has been used to the higher numbers for longer.

However I believe that Levemir is equally as good as Lantus and may even have additional advantages in respect of trying to achieve remission. Cats that have been on Lantus for more than two years are highly unlikely to go into remission whereas this still happens with cats on Levemir. Levemir does take longer to onset though (Lantus begins onset around +3) so I would find it odd if Darby's nadir is very soon after his shot - ECID though, I guess we won't know until you have your spreadsheet up and a couple of curves done.

The dose changes made by the vet don't look right to me either, for Lantus we only increase by 0.25 or 0.5 at a time but I have not used Levemir so perhaps that is different. Again some ss data will help the experienced people here be able to provide you with advice. I get all my dosing advice here rather than from the vet who now says that I know more about it than he does anyway :lol:

Feeding several small meals across the day is better for cats on Lantus or Levemir than the two meals a day thing so you are on track there.

Good that you are here, you will find the board an invaluable source of information so keep posting any questions you may have.

Serryn
 
Darby said:
Hi All,
I finally have registered on this excellent message board. So here goes!
Darby was diagnosed July 2011. I tried food therapy to lower his BG but no luck and then after a further delay acct I was going out of town and then he had his first bladder infection (which the vet wanted to clear up first ) - he finally started insulin on Oct 25th. Now I regret all the above decisions. I've been told that these delays will likely mean no remission. He started on Glargine and the numbers just kept going up - sometimes lower ( but never below 8 ( well once 7.6 ). These lower numbers were always around 11:30 - midnight so I thought that was his nadir time. But there was no consistency with this theory from week to week. Sometimes at midnight the numbers were around 19 or 20. They were always high when the vet wanted to do a reading, at the office usually about 6 hours after his morning RX, and so she would raise the amount. I wanted a second opinion and found an internal medicine specialist and we decided to switch to Levimir. Same scenario but even stranger.
Jan 6th - 17.4 @ 11:39 PM. on 4 units -- Jan 13th-- 2.6 @ 11:52 PM on 5 units ---Jan 16th 14.2 @ 11:52 P.M on 4.5 units - considered stable after a good glucose curve on Jan 19th - readings every 4 hours on 4.5 units. My specialist vet said I didn't have to test for a month. But on Jan 26th I tested again because of how Darby looked and his numbers were between 16 and 18. I took in a urine sample and there was blood so he was on antibiotics for 14 days and increased to 5 units. His reading went higher than it had ever been on Feb 26th - 23.7 @ 1:12 PM. Today I took him to a different vet because my vet is out of the country until March 6th. A urine sample is being sent away for a culture to be done. It appears that even though there's blood, there's no bacteria detected from a routing urinalysis. I wonder what that means? There's no evidence that his nadir is late in the day. In fact, the nadir to me is unknown. This current vet seems to think it's very soon after the first insulin shot. He has not prescribed any further antibiotics until the results of the culture are back. Darby is on 5.5 units now and to me he doesn't look right. I was feeding Menu Food brands which are Special Kitty from Walmart and Priority from Safeway - same formulas different prices and the carb % were provided by the nutritionist at Menu Foods ( 905-826-3870 x 228 ). I only feed below 5% and choices without fruits and vegetables ( vet's request ). My vet seemed to have a problem with the Special Kitty and suggested the Whiskas flat packs so I phoned for the ME on that too and was told all flavors are around 6 % calories from carbs. I question that but am giving it a try although it appears the food choices are not the problem in Darby's case. He is not a twice a day plus a snack at 9 PM eater but likes several meals and his weight is 14 lbs 14 oz right now. The Priority and Special Kitty labels ( in Canada ) have meat as the first ingredient. I want to return to these brands. More than anything I want Darby to be regulated and happy.
Thanks for listening and any advice will be greatly appreciated.
Darby's caregiver - Vicki

OH lots of stuff in there.... OK you are in Ontario I am guessing, maybe Mississauga or Toronto?
There are many others on this site who live near you I bet, so if you have any trouble home testing or looking for local sources for supplies.

OK food first here. There are lots of foods you can try for Darby so that you stick to under 10%.... see Binky's list. I am not familiar with with Priority but have seen Special Kitty (mine would not eat the SK foods). Mostly I just got Friskies pates, Fancy Feast pates, no grilled or gravies.
Binky’s Food Lists
Feeding Your Cat: Know The Basics of Feline Nutrition
Many people also make use of auto feeders so that they can space out their feedings it away at work, etc.
Petsafe 5-meal Auto Feeder

Now, for the insulin, Lantus(Glargine) is quite good, and Levemir is even better, it's my preference, but the dose you are at, and the BG numbers from the vet curves look like poor Darby is bouncing all over the place. At a dose of 5units twice a day, no home testing is nuts. Ask any human diabetic if they just shoot themselves with insulin without testing first.... they will think you were nuts to even suggest such a crazy thing.

I don't know what you've been told or read about Lantus/Levemir, so here are some links to info that will help you get a good picture of how these insulins act.

Tight Regulation Protocol
Lantus & Levemir – Insulin Depot –AKA- Storage Shed
more info:

Lantus & Levemir: Info, Proper Handling & Storage has picture of syringe and insulin pens.
Lantus & Levemir: What’s the Difference?

Most of the people on this site won't know what the 2.6 value is.... there is a convertor you can use to post the numbers so they will understand.
There's also a link below to show you a bit about home testing, but there are tons more.
Testing on cat’s ear
BG Conversion Calculator

if I see a cat getting 17.4 on 4units and then a 2.6 on 5units a week later.... says to me Whoa too much insulin (maybe) and let's get home testing so we know what Darby's really getting on these doses. The 2.6 is 47 and not too bad a number; the 17.4 is 313, so I wonder if Darby is bouncing high then low, then high then low, over and over.

Just pick up a meter at Shoppers DrugMart or some pharmacy, like a OneTouch or Bayer Contour, some test strips and lancets for the meter, plus pick up some KETOSTIX to test Darby's urine for ketones. Here's some info on ketones:
Ketones

You mentioned Darby got some antibiotics for 14days; was it an injection or did you give Darby meds each day. If one injection, was it convenia? Just asking as many have problems getting convenia shots.

I think you and Darby will be feeling much better once you are testing at home and feeding confirmed low carb wet foods from Binky's list. You will likely save a fair bit of money by testing Darby at home instead of taking to the vet for curves.

We try to get a fair number of tests in a day, each day. It is wise, critical, to test before giving any insulin shots so that you know it's safe to give the shot. I hate to think if you have given a shot of 5units when Darby's BG was around 2.6! Not good! While I am at it, here are some links to give you info on Hypo incidents, what are the signs and what to do if it happens.
List of Hypo symptoms
How to treat HYPOS-They can kill! Print this out!
Jojo’s HYPO TOOLKIT
I feel there are 3 tests that are pretty important each day...
before the am shot, before the pm shot, and just before you head to bed. Many cats go lower at nite, so it's important to know that Darby is not already going low and if he is, you can give him some higher carb food to stop his dropping too low.

Finally, many people will be saying 'get a spreadsheet together' .... it's a great tool for tracking your home testing, and the best thing is that using the google sheet, others can look at the numbers and help you when you are asking.... now what??

Be sure to ask every question you have; someone will have an answer for you.
 
You've got plenty of good advice there. Welcome!
Yes: home testing will make all the difference, that's the only way you can get a close, expert understanding of your cat.
and it will save you a fortune in vet's bills.
Have a cuppa, do some reading, ~O)
let us know if you need help with that spreadsheet.
 
Welcome! Ditto what Nat said.

Starting home testing can be pretty overwhelming at first, but the folks here got me straightened out in no time. They really do know their stuff and can help you get your little Darby feeling well again. Cats are very good at hiding their illness as I'm sure you know, so if you can tell something's wrong, something is wrong. Home testing and adjusting the insulin dose will do wonders for him I should expect. 5U is a very high dose and as others have mentioned, giving too much insulin can cause a cat to really feel unwell and could kill him. :(

Check in with us and ask any questions you have.

Lori
 
Hi again everyone and thanks for responding.

I guess I was not clear in my first email because in fact, I've been home testing since Darby was diagnosed in July of 2011 with BG at 18.7mmol/l. I guess that's slightly over 300mg/dl.
My problem is now. Oh by the way, my internal medicine specialist vet, now out of the country until March 6th says the Somogyi effect does not happen in cats. Any comments?
So further to now. How do you explain the following: ( late testing based on previous history on Glargine )

on 4 units Levemir at 11:58 PM on Dec 29th --BG 7.5 ( app 135 )
on 4 units Levemir at 11:39 PM on Jan 6th --BG 17.4( app 310 )
on 5 units Levemir at 11:58 PM on Jan 13th -BG 2.6 ( app 47 )
on 4 units -goof up by me should have been 4.5
at 11:52 PM on Jan 16th -------------------------BG 14.2 ( app 255 )
on 4.5 units Levemir - curve done on Jan 19th - all tests in regulated range
on 4.5 units Levemir at 7:13 PM on Jan 30th-- BG 20.1 ( app 360 )
(bladder infection diagnosed Jan 30th acct blood in urine but white blood cells not evident. medication now finished).
High numbers in Feb eg 23.7 (app 425 ) - waiting for results of urine culture acct still blood in urine but no elevated white blood cells. )

Based on curve results now thinking the nadir might be early day not late. Still trying to determine.
2 tests done so far today -
on 5.5 units Levemir at 11:37 AM on Feb 16th 13.5 ( app 240 )
on 5.5 units Levemir at 3:37 PM on Feb 16th 13.0 ( app 230 )
Planning on 2 more tests today but I'm thinking nothing will be true until the infection, if any, is resolved.
Does anyone know of a condition other than bladder infection which presents with blood in the urine?

Still hoping for regulation to make Darby as comfortable and happy as possible
PS I only feed canned with no more than 5 % calories from carbs and without starchy veg.

Thanks again
Darby's caregiver Vicki ( from Winnipeg, MB )
 
Vicki

Please set up a spreadsheet for Darby as soon as you can (link provided perviously) it makes it so much easier for people to understand what is going on. Unfortunately the information you have provided doesn't help too much, your vet will also be able to look at the spreadsheet and find it useful, as will you. Most importantly we need to know what time the shots were given, the time of the BG readings means next to nothing without that information.

I'm thinking that what you might be saying is that all those BG readings were taken at the time of administering insulin. If that is the case I'm very concerned that there are only PM readings (except for today). Are you only administering insulin once a day? Lantus and Levemir both need to be administered BID (twice a day) 12 hours apart in cats. If you are only administering once a day then it would be no surprise that most of your readings are very high by the time you get to the next shot.

It is doubtful if the somogyi effect occurs in humans (see wiki) and certainly there have been no studies to show it exists in cats so most people here would agree with your vet on that point. What we call a bounce is not the somogyi effect.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top