FYI IF YOUR CAT HAS DIABETES!!!

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Nelson8686

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My cat was diagnosed with diabetes probably about 6 months ago. Getting the insulin regulated was so draining and killed my pockets. Not to mention the stress of giving him needles. The cost of the needles, food, syringes etc was out of this world! I still dont completely understand it (diabetes) as my vet wasn't very informative. The information on the internet is kind of wishy washy. However I did not stop asking for information/ help I talked to everybody and anyone that would listen. Nelson is my baby. I recently started going to this new pet store and I mentioned to the clerk about his diabetes. She told me that almost every cat that has gone on this certain type of food has come completely off insulin. I found that very hard to believe. I went to the vets to grab some syringes and they were out. At the time I couldn't get them from any where else. I figured what the heck I went and bought that food. The clerk was more then right he is now completely off of insulin. He's back to his old self. He's gained all his weight back. I have a bit more $$$ again. I dont think it really matters to much about the brand so long as its "grain free". However, the stuff I get is called Orijen, It costs around 25$ for a medium sized bag and you should be able to by it at your local pet store. http://www.orijen.ca/orijen/products/catkitten.aspx
I would not recommend to go straight off the insulin and straight off the diabetic food your cat is on. Also regulate how much he/she is eating. I would do it slowly. This was an extremely difficult and stressful thing for me to go through (nelson being diagnosed with diabetes). I wish I could tell everyone that has a diabetic cat, this truly has been a life saver! I hope I helped :)
 
Being the conspiracy theorist that I can be, your post sounds a bit like something an Orijen rep would write.

Yes, it is possible for a cat to come off insulin with a low carb diet. But you cannot just throw the insulin and syringes away. It's not going to happen overnight. You make that point. However, no one food is going to do it better than another, it just needs to be under 10% kcal from carbs.

And frankly, not all information on the internet is "wishy washy." At least not on this site nor on this message board. If you truly asked everyone, this is your first post here, where you should have started in the beginning.

Sorry to be a little mean since you may have meant well, but posting fear tactics on this board where we have members joining every day in a panic because they discovered their cat has diabetes is not helpful. Many people have trouble affording supplies and treatment, but we help them learn how to be frugal.

Those scary statements about costs and an uninformed vet are what lead me to believe you are spamming our board. So I want to end my reply by saying to anyone who is new - yes, diabetes is scary, but this is the best place to be learn about it and get the best advice to help your cat, including about food. This may be a very good food, but it will not "cure" your cat of diabetes, which the OP seems to hint at.
 
Nelson8686 said:
... I mentioned to the clerk about his diabetes. She told me that almost every cat that has gone on this certain type of food has come completely off insulin.
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Where's the data to back that up? One word of mouth testimonial won't cut it. We want to see RESEARCH data!
 
GRAIN-FREE & CARBOHYDRATE LIMITED | 0% / 20% Your cat’s natural diet contains very few, if any, grains or carbohydrates. That’s why Biologically Appropriate ORIJEN is grain-free and contains less than half the carbohydrates found in conventional cat foods.

What does that even mean? Is it 20% calories from carbs? Plus it's DRY food. Even if it gets fluffy off insulin, what other long-term damage is the trade off?

How would a sales clerk know that this product works so great unless it was just the sales rep's pitch? How many people with otj sugar cats have been into that specific store? Three, four, ten?

Pretty sure I seen this product pitched here previously, but I would have to do a search...
Carl
 
I am definately not a sales rep lol. I work at a hospital. I just figured I would share this information. It would have saved me alot of hassel if I knew 6 months ago what I know now. I understand your concern or why you wouldn't agree.... I thought it was ludacris. Nelson was on 6 units twice a day. My vet bill to get his insulin regulated was almost 1500$. The cost of the syringes and food was about 75$ every 2 weeks. The insulin was about 30$ every 2 months. Not to mention the treats etc. I am sure I am missing something. I think the vet I was taking him to was a bit to blame I don't think they really specialized in diabetes in cats. I am sure there are most likely other ways to get it under control cheaper. I am not trying to scare anyone. Just trying to help that is all. I thought I was going to lose Nelson and he is my whole world.
 

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OK - if you'd mentioned that, we wouldn't have been so strong in response.

Welcome to the board.

We encourage you to read the main web site and especially to take note of the feeding recommendation for low carbohydrate canned or raw food. Binky's Page provides some lists of various foods and the percentage of calories (not weight) from carbohydrate. Cat Info discusses feline nutrition and is written by Lisa Pierson, DVM

Safety note: If you are not currently testing the blood glucose, are giving insulin, and still feeding dry foods, we encourage you to learn blood testing prior to any food changes. Removing dry food may drop the glucose levels 100 points or more, which could provoke a hypoglycemic attack; if you are testing, you'll spot the changes and be able to adjust the dose according to your protocol.
 
It's awesome that Nelson is doing great! Simply put, the best diet for a diabetic is one that has the least amount of calories from carbs. That food has higher carb values than many. It might be low for a dry food (not sure because we can't find "% k/cal from carbs values for it), but almost certainly it is higher than most canned foods that we recommend.
The important thing is that it is DRY food, which is an inappropriate diet for any cat, diabetic or not. Here's a great link to read if you haven't seen it. What I meant about "long term" consequences of eating dry food is explained very well by Dr. Lisa Pierson there:
http://www.catinfo.org

Just wondering, what insulin was Nelson on? I ask because $30 per 2 months sounds pretty cheap. (If it was Humulin or Caninsulin, that would explain a great deal as to why it was so hard for him to get regulated).

Carl
 
Managing feline diabetes is not cheap. However, most of us do not feed a dry food diet. I would encourage you to look at this website on feline nutrition that's authored by a vet who has developed considerable expertise in the area of diet and nutrition. Dry food is not a good choice for cats. Cats do not, by their nature, drink water. In the wild, they get their moisture through eating their prey. Hence, a canned food diet is preferred since it is higher in moisture than dry. Further, cats are obligate carnivores. The essentials for their diet are protein and vitamins and minerals. Ingredients such as potato, peas, alfalfa, pumpkin, chicory root, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, blueberries, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary are unnecessary for their diet and not easily digested.

Using a rough calculation based on the guaranteed analysis of Orijen, it's almost 19% carb. Most of us feed less than 10% carb, if not substantially lower. (I feed 4% carb.) Orijen also contains a fair amount of fish. Many cats are allergic to fish and it's not a source of protein that is advisable to give male cats on a daily basis. (They tend to have more plumbing problems than females!)

I'm very happy that your cat is in remission. I would suggest your re-think your food choice as he's now diet controlled and what you're feeding is less than ideal for most cats. I'm sorry that you didn't find FDMB sooner. I think you would have found this is an incredible resource for information about feline diabetes.
 
We actually tried both caninsulin and humilin. I think at one point he was up to about 7 units BID. I heard that was unusual.. I wish I would have brought him to a vet that specialized in cat diabetes I was furious with the vet he had him there for over 2 weeks! I was a wreck. I asked him about testing Nelson and he said there was no need to. I actually have never tested him myself. My vet had always told me there was no need to. I kind of think this guys out to lunch and a major $ grab. I had already invested so much into him and he just kept promising me results. He did get him under control with the 6 units BID. For me it was VERY evident in Nelson's behavior. I actually would regulate his insulin just by that which is not good I know but it has worked. He refused giving me any testing devices. Even when he was on the insulin he wasnt back to his crazy self. He is completely back to normal his weight is right back where it was, he isnt drinking and urinating like before. He is great. Thank you for the links all the info I can get helps :)
 
I realize you spent a lot of money at the vet and for supplies. Many people end up doing the same and a lot of what you spend the money really isn't necessary.

As for one, you can't regulate the cat at the vet's office. Keeping your cat at the vet for days or even weeks is unnecessary and a huge money waster, the only reason you would need to do this, is if you have a hypo or DKA situation happening.

Not sure if your vet has advised home testing or not, but it is something that we strongly advise to do and NO it's not necessary to purchase the alphatrak or other animal meters. Human meters work just fine and are easier to get supplies and cheaper too.

Regarding food, sadly many vets recommend prescription and DRY food at that. Again, not necessary.

You didn't say what kind of insulin you used, or where you purchased it from. While yes, insulin can be expensive, there are ways to get it cheaper, such as Costco, etc. Also, buying pens vs. vial is most cost effective.

You don't have to spend a fortune on syringes. Walmart sells Relion syringes $13/box of 100. While some may say these aren't the highest quality syringes, they do the job and work just fine.



This is what I typically say to newbies and I'm going to consider you a newbie and you may benefit from the information below:

WELCOME, this forum is a great place to gain knowledge and really learn how to manage feline diabetes. By doing just a few things each day (that really won't take up much of your time at all), you won't need to worry about losing your precious cat, not where feline diabetes is concerned.

There are three key factors to managing diabetes: food/nutrition, home testing and insulin

1) Feline Nutrition: Now, as far as diet - definitely dump the dry food (if you are feeding any) and if the vet recommends purchasing prescription food like DM just say "no thank you". ALL cats, and especially those with diabetes, do best on a species appropriate diet that is high in protein and low in carbs. Dry food DOES NOT fit that bill and DM food, even canned, just really isn't that great as far as quality. Most here on FDMB feed low carb/high protein canned, raw bought from a pet store or they make there own.

Here great links, one is to a food chart put together by one of our board members that breaks down the carb % and protein % of most of the commercial brand foods. You want to keep the carb % below 10% and around 7% is great. The other link is to a site by a vet "Dr. Lisa DVM" ... who also posts on this board from time to time ... there is in-depth info. there about many things, including nutrition and how to make raw food.
Nutrition/food info

The good thing with feeding your diabetic cat this way, is that it is ALSO good for any non-diabetic cat too. All your cats can safely eat the same food without worry and it may save you some costs and headaches of having to do separate feedings and keeping track of what they are eating.


2. Home testing: It is impossible to convey the value of testing your cat's BG (blood glucose) level at home. Some vets will "suggest" this, but most won't even mention it. They will send you home with insulin and an amount to shoot and maybe some instructions about hypoglycemia (blood sugar dropping to a dangerously low level).

Well, the thing is, human diabetics don't EVER give themselves insulin without checking there BG to make sure it is safe to do so, so why shouldn't it be the same for our kitties. Here on FDMB it is. You will notice that the vast majority of people here test their cat's BG at least 2x/day (before giving each shot to make sure the level is safe enough) and periodically at other times to see how the cat is responding to the current dose. We use a human glucometer, test strips and lancets - which are all very readily available and easy to use.

Our kitties get lots of love and treats for "putting up" with this and most of them actually come out to be tested on their own 'cause they want those treats . Here is a collection of great links that "Carolyn and Spot" pulled together about hometesting. See what you think ... it truly is the best way to not only keep Your cat safe but also really get a handle on this disease and help him to live a healthy life with FD (feline diabetes).

Home testing Links

3. Insulin: There are several types of insulin available. Many people, myself included use Lantus or Levimer both of which are great insulins. They are gentle insulin and given twice (BID) per day in 12 hour increments. Or you could also choose PZI or the new version called Prozinc.

Please read up on the insulins available, here is a link to the Insulin Support Groups:

Insulin Support Groups

However, one caveat and again this shows how these three things are inter-related:

If you are feeding dry food or even a high carb food, BEFORE removing these foods, please make sure of your insulin dose as it will most likely need to be reduced, so as to avoid a possible hypoglycemic situation due to the removal of the dry/high carb foods that will lower the BG’s and reduce the amount of insulin required. Again, another reason why home testing is important.

I know this all seems like a lot, and that's because it is ... there is a learning curve here. But as long as you are determined and keep at it, you will have it down before you know it and you'll be seeing the results in Your cat's overall health and happiness. Ask all the questions you can think of - that's why we are here!

Also, let us know where you live - city/state as there are probably people in your area who can provide on the ground support and help you to learn home testing, etc.
 
Nelson8686 said:
We actually tried both caninsulin and humilin. I think at one point he was up to about 7 units BID. I heard that was unusual.. I wish I would have brought him to a vet that specialized in cat diabetes I was furious with the vet he had him there for over 2 weeks! I was a wreck. I asked him about testing Nelson and he said there was no need to. I actually have never tested him myself. My vet had always told me there was no need to. I kind of think this guys out to lunch and a major $ grab. I had already invested so much into him and he just kept promising me results. He did get him under control with the 6 units BID. For me it was VERY evident in Nelson's behavior. I actually would regulate his insulin just by that which is not good I know but it has worked. He refused giving me any testing devices. Even when he was on the insulin he wasnt back to his crazy self. He is completely back to normal his weight is right back where it was, he isnt drinking and urinating like before. He is great. Thank you for the links all the info I can get helps :)
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I see we posted at the same time.

I'm sorry your vet discouraged home testing. My former vet did the same and actually forbade me from home testing. Why - because she was concerned about a potential lawsuit. Had nothing to do with the welfare of my cat, she just didn't want me to sue her if I messed up somehow.

It was the people on this board who guided me and helped me get Maui regulated and now 3 years off insulin.

The insulins you used, are not ones that we recommend as good for cats. These are not long lasting insulins and are considered harsh insulins.

If this were my cat, I would go to Walmart and pick up a meter/strips/etc - you can get it cheaper there - the relion brand and start testing my cat to really see how "regulated" she is.

Just my additional 2 cents.
 
I really appreciate all your info I really wish I came across this site along time ago. I could have used the support. I live in Vancouver BC Canada. I was so stressed out I didn't know what to do. Seemed like I couldn't get any answers. I will definately be doing the at home testing. I had no clue about walmart, THANK YOU! I thought it sounded ridiculous to be giving an animal an amount of insulin when you dont even know how much they actually need. For the time being he's great. I definately would like to be sure, so testing it is. Also I will be thoroughly combing this site and similar ones to get as much knowledge as I can. So what is the story with your cat(s)? I think you mentioned they are off insulin as well? What was that process like?
 
It's funny how you say; "DM, humilin & Caninsulin" those were all the things he was recommending that weren't working. Good Grief!
 
We have several members in Vancouver, who can be an in person support and help to you as well. Especially if you need testing lessons.

I guess you could say, that I was lucky with Maui. I can do anything to her and she doesn't give me problems. Since I got her at about 6 months, she always had skin issues - irritation, scratching until raw, pulling out her fur, etc. For years, the vets treated the symptoms, never once did they search for the underlying cause. So, as a result, she got steroid injections, which relieved the itchiness for a time. I also tried every shampoo you can think of too.

I didn't know any better and always fed dry food. I even fed "quality" dry food, thinking I was doing the right thing for my cats. Little did I know how bad it really is.

So, with all that, Maui was losing weight, her fur looked horrible, dandruffy and just dull and lifeless. I took her to the vet, who diagnosed diabetes and told me that I had to leave her there for at least one week so they could regulate her. When I asked questions, I was dismissed.

I found this board immediately and told my story. Several people jumped in and told me that the vet is wrong and that I need to bring Maui home immediately and they would help me. I was so scared, I felt alone and how do you trust people on the internet? Luckily there were a couple people local to me, one I spoke with on the phone and the other I met in person.

She could have been talking greek for all the good it did me. However, we did use the same vet, so she knew what I was dealing with.

The two biggest issues I had with the vet was:

1) she forbade me from home testing
2) she was going to inject the second dose of lantus after only 8 hours instead of 12 as is protocol

Why you ask, well because "I brought my cat in so late in the morning and the place closed at 6 pm, and they had to close up, so it was my fault that they couldn't dose her correctly."

Not only that, she wouldn't be monitored overnight, as it's not a 24 hour place and I was concerned that what if something happened (previously I had a cat die at this place, when not monitored overnight) and like I said, I was scared that what am I going to do, as the vet REFUSED to write a script for insulin and refused to continue treatment, when I insisted on bringing her home. The only way she would continue on the case, was if I took her to the 24 hour place and then brought her back the next day, for continued "regulation".

The people on this board, thought it was all crazy and I was fighting with listening to a so called professional who was supposed to have my cat's interest and the strangers on this board telling me NO< don't allow this. and my gut, knowing this is wrong, but being scared that I wouldn't have any support at all.

So, I listened to the board. I brought Maui home, I called 10 local vet offices and started asking questions about how they treat diabetes and home testing, etc. and finally found one that would work with me.

Now, during all this, the only people who said anything about dry food, was the people here. The vet tried to sell me the prescription food and even fed that to Maui when she was there.

Long story short, it took some doing to teach Maui that canned food is food and dry food is no longer allowed. I had to spoon feed her and what a mess that was. Until one day, she decided to lick the spoon. That was all it took. Now today, Maui will eat canned food, raw food, even my homemade raw food. All this from a cat who only ate dry.

And within a month of the removal of all dry food - Maui's skin cleared up, no more itchiness, no more dandruff and her fur was sleek, shiny and soft.

As for her BG, well you can look at her chart below and see how she did. We got into micro dosing very quickly and stayed at low numbers for a long time.

By making these changes, Maui did not need insulin for long (only 3 months) and has been in remission (OTJ) ever since. I tested her last week and she gave me a lovely 76. Which is well within normal range.

Now, getting back to this former vet - when I questioned her about the home testing - she tripped over herself several times - once she forbade, then she said, well if I insist on testing then I must buy the alpha trak from her and bring Maui in daily for testing, then she said, if I do anything on my own or with any other meter, then she will not be on Maui's case, as she did not want the legal liability of something going wrong and my suing her.

Ah..... that was what this was all about. The vet was trying to cover her A$$ and never had Maui's best interest only her own.

When I questioned the food choices, she yelled at me and told me that I have wasted her day by calling all day long with questions and if I don't follow her instructions then I should go elsewhere.

The sad thing is, I am not the only person who has experienced horrible vets. And this is a vet I had been using for over 6 years.

Thanks to the people here, I have learned to ask questions and keep asking them until I get answers that make sense and if a vet will not become a partner with me, then they are no longer my vet.

So, that's Maui's story. And here are a couple of pictures of her learning to eat canned food.

http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww18 ... 1_0637.jpg

http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww18 ... 1_0635.jpg
 
Those are SUPER CUTE PICS!!! Our dog is having the same skin problems. Maybe that is whats wrong with him, I will have to look into it. Of course we have the same vet for all our animals so the problem is of course unresolved as well. SHEESH. WOW now that I am reading all this I don't feel so crazy! I was getting really mad & upset with my vet. They made me feel like I was in the wrong but now that you're saying this, it just backs up all my gut instincts & everything I was saying to them. I am NOT going there anymore. I did the same thing as you and phoned around trying to get information from other vets. I had 1 veterinarian phone me back. Everyone else would not give me any information without bringing Nelson in for a consult $$$. I had already spent so much I couldn't imagine spending more. My vet kept saying it was almost under control time & time again. The same exact story with the vet I had infact he wouldn't call me back was always out. When I had dropped Nelson off the 3rd time he actually had the odacity to phone me and tell me; "we have started him on 5 units bid". I'm like; "are you kidding me?????? that's the same dose you told me to give him the last time I left!!!!". I was furious also he told me he gave him the insulin at 10am. I was like well how are you suppose to give him his next dose when your closed? None of any of this made any sense. So frustrating. I read all about the dry food and how its not good, this seems to be working though I am gonna stick with it for now. I am giving him the wet version of it as a treat. I am definately taking your advice and getting an at home testing kit. I really appreciate your help. I was looking into making his food too any good recipe suggestions you prefer?
ThANK YOU :)
 
In my signature link are some questions for interviewing vets.

And at the top of the feline health forum are some tips on converting vets, plus we have veterinary articles to provide to vet practices which are not up to date ... tactfully, of course. After all, it is very difficult to stay on top of new information for every animal species out there, and even if you specialize, there's still an awful lot to study when you aren't seeing clients.

Until you get started blood glucose testing, there is a link to some secondary monitoring tools in my signature block too. In particular, testing for ketones is important as those may indicate the onset of diabetic ketoacidosis, a potentially fatal complication of diabetes.
 
Nelson8686 said:
I am definately not a sales rep lol. I work at a hospital. I just figured I would share this information. It would have saved me alot of hassel if I knew 6 months ago what I know now. I understand your concern or why you wouldn't agree.... I thought it was ludacris. Nelson was on 6 units twice a day. My vet bill to get his insulin regulated was almost 1500$. The cost of the syringes and food was about 75$ every 2 weeks. The insulin was about 30$ every 2 months. Not to mention the treats etc. I am sure I am missing something. I think the vet I was taking him to was a bit to blame I don't think they really specialized in diabetes in cats. I am sure there are most likely other ways to get it under control cheaper. I am not trying to scare anyone. Just trying to help that is all. I thought I was going to lose Nelson and he is my whole world.
Click to expand...

We understand. However, we need to tell you, that while it is possible for a cat to stop needing insulin because of a change in diet, it is also very possible (and very likely), that your cat will need insulin again in the future. We hope that is not the case, but do not want you to believe this food is a "cure" for diabetes. A diet change to a low carb/high protein diet is always beneficial to a diabetic cat, but diabetes can return even if on that diet.

We do recommend that you learn to hometest. This will help you monitor your cat's glucose levels to be assured the diet change is working. If you find his glucose levels begin to creep higher, let us know. We can offer a lot of advice how to save money while caring for a diabetic cats. I have cared for two diabetic cats at a time and I rarely spent more than $75 a month for both of them. There are a lot of tips we can give you to save money while still giving quality care to your cat.
 
While the vet I use now, worked with me for Maui's diabetes, she was still convinced that prescription food was the way to go. So, I just told her that I wasn't interested in it and was handling the food issue on my own. It's one of those areas, that we just don't discuss.

I never did figure out what caused Maui's skin problems, all I can say is when the dry food stopped, the problems cleared up and have never returned. So, there is something in the dry food that caused it. What I don't know and it doesn't really matter, I just know, dry food is not an option for her. Of course, Maui would love to get her paws into dry food again.

Regarding homemade raw food, before you invest in purchasing a grinder and other materials, you may want to start by buying commercially available raw food to see if your cats will eat it. It took some time before 2 of 3 would touch it.

As for recipes, the one I use is one that a friend gave me. I know Dr. Lisa has recipes on her website that you could follow.

If your vet is good for the dogs for example, you could continue to use the vet for that and use a different vet for the cats.

For me, it was the attitude of the vet and the owners of the place that really got to me and made me go elsewhere. I have also gotten my voice and speak up when something doesn't make sense. After all, I have to be the one who speaks for my cats as they cannot do it for themselves. I am their advocate and besides I know them best and how to communicate for them.

so, as you go vet shopping, it's something to consider.

I also have a 24 hour specialty place 30 minutes away and have started using that as my go to place in lieu of the general vet. Especially, when I know the general vet won't have the answer or will send me there anyway.

I think about it like this, if I go to the general vet and they make me wait for x time, and pay x amount or won't take the animal or will keep her all day and then charge a boarding fee, and still not have an answer and then suggest I go to the specialty place anyway, am I going to be annoyed?

Would I rather bypass that annoyance and cost and go straight to the specialists? Lately, I've said yes to that and it has worked out just fine.

I'm not saying not to use the general vet, they do serve a purpose and are closer, but when I know how they will do something, I think what is the best way to get answers with the least annoyance.

And when I went through the process of interviewing vets, only one vet returned my call, I spoke mainly with the reception staff to get an idea of how they do things. A good receptionist will know how things work in the practice.
 
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