Friskie's Special Diet bad for CRF kitties?

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Julia & Bandit (GA)

Julia & Bandit (GA)

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I mentioned this in a different thread yesterday http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=2072, but I would like to know what other owners of CRF cats have heard on this subject. I took my civvie Gabby off K/D and put her on Friskie's Special Diet Turkey and Giblets, because of the low phosphorus levels. However, when my new vet asked what I was feeding Gabby she was concerned that I was feeding her a urinary tract diet, because UT diets are designed to make urine more acidic, and CRF cats already have too much acid and this can further degenerate the kidneys.

I know a lot of people here with CRF cats feed Friskie's special diet, so I was wondering if anyone else had heard this concern before, and what your thoughts are? I am pretty sure I'm switching Gabby to Petguard as soon as my store of Friskies is gone.
 
Here are some things I found at felinecrf.com and felinecrf.org about the subject:

"CRF may have one or more causes. The common contributing factors are age, genetics, environment, and disease. In recent years, more attention has been directed towards high blood pressure, low potassium levels, acidified diets, and dental disease as possible contributors to the development of CRF." http://www.felinecrf.com/what0.htm

"You should be wary of foods which say that they are designed to "support urinary tract health", or "magnesium-controlled", or words to that effect. You should also avoid foods that contain cranberries or additional Vitamin C. This type of food is acidified because it is actually designed to treat a different kind of problem to CRF called Feline Lower Urinary Tract Disease or FLUTD (see Links and Resources) and may have the effect of increasing the amounts of potassium lost in the urine, which is bad for most CRF cats. It is therefore best not to feed these acidified foods to CRF cats, who tend to have quite high acid levels anyway." http://www.felinecrf.org/which_foods.htm#urinary_health_foods

"Many commercial diets over the last ten years have been re-formulated to promote "urinary tract health", or words along those lines...Acidified diets may also contribute to low potassium levels." http://www.felinecrf.org/causes_of_crf.htm#acidified_diet
 
wonder what makes him think it's a urinary food? as far as i know and i feel pretty confident saying this, i'd say probably at least 75%+ of us who've had CRF cats feed or have fed Friskies Special Diet foods.
 
Cindy + Mousie said:
wonder what makes him think it's a urinary food? as far as i know and i feel pretty confident saying this, i'd say probably at least 75%+ of us who've had CRF cats feed or have fed Friskies Special Diet foods.
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Special Diet is a urinary tract diet: http://www.friskies.com/Wet-Cat-Food/Sp ... fault.aspx

That's why I was concerned and wanted to post this information...I know a lot of people here (including myself!) feed their diabetic/non-diabetic CRF cats this food.
 
A regular on the Feline Phos Mgmt group did point out to me that it's an acidifying diet, and inappropriate for CKD kitties. I've continued to feed it though - we have had enough problems with her appetite (she's been on mirtazapine pretty much for an entire year now and still needs to be encouraged to eat) - but I also keep in mind the symptoms of metabolic acidosis to watch for. It's not ideal, but we've had to prioritize, and eating (eta: and a low-phos diet, at that) is top priority for her.
 
This is interesting, and I had never thought of the connection.

Of course, any meat-based diet is acidifying; that's one of the reasons a meat-based wet diet is the first line of defense against formation of struvite crystals. But when I look at the ingredients of, for example, the classic pate with salmon, nothing leaps out at me as being an extra acidifier (someone please correct me if I'm wrong):

Meat by-products, poultry by-products, water sufficient for processing, salmon, brewers rice, guar gum, added color (Red 3 and other color), potassium chloride, salt, carrageenan, calcium phosphate, Vitamin E supplement, zinc sulfate, thiamine mononitrate, ferrous sulfate, niacin, sodium nitrite (to promote color retention), manganese sulfate, calcium pantothenate, Vitamin A supplement, copper sulfate, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, biotin, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, potassium iodide.
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Probably the best thing to do is to monitor the urinary pH of a cat on this diet, and see if it falls into the "overly acidic" range. If so, a different diet should be found. The urinary pH is supposed to be around 6.0 to 6.5.
 
Janet & Binky (GA) said:
Of course, any meat-based diet is acidifying; that's one of the reasons a meat-based wet diet is the first line of defense against formation of struvite crystals. But when I look at the ingredients of, for example, the classic pate with salmon, nothing leaps out at me as being an extra acidifier (someone please correct me if I'm wrong)
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I could be wrong about this, but isn't calcium phospate used in the production of phosphoric acid? I'm no nutritionist, I'm just recalling this from college chemistry, so I'm not sure if that even means anything.

Regardless of what acidifying ingredients stand out, the manufacturer is advertising that Special Diet "Helps maintain Urinary Tract Health By Reducing Urinary pH". I don't think they would advertise that the food was acidifying if it wasn't.

Janet & Binky (GA) said:
Probably the best thing to do is to monitor the urinary pH of a cat on this diet, and see if it falls into the "overly acidic" range. If so, a different diet should be found. The urinary pH is supposed to be around 6.0 to 6.5.
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My vet was very adamant that there are several studies that indicate these types of urine acidifying foods hasten the progression of kidney disease. I'm not sure if I want to keep Gabby on the food to do a long-term study myself of how it effects her pH, as it seems potentially harmful. I would be interested to know the results if anyone else has/will monitor the pH on the food, though!

WCF and Meowzi said:
A regular on the Feline Phos Mgmt group did point out to me that it's an acidifying diet, and inappropriate for CKD kitties. I've continued to feed it though - we have had enough problems with her appetite (she's been on mirtazapine pretty much for an entire year now and still needs to be encouraged to eat) - but I also keep in mind the symptoms of metabolic acidosis to watch for. It's not ideal, but we've had to prioritize, and eating (eta: and a low-phos diet, at that) is top priority for her.
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I completely understand. Gabby is still in the early stages of CRD, and she doesn't have an appetite problem yet. But I agree that the most important thing in progressed CRF that the cat will eat, even if the food isn't ideal.
 
MY CAT HAS URINARY TRACT PROBLEMS. CAN I FEED HER PETGUARD PRODUCTS?

The importance of urinary tract health is highly understated in this country. While PetGuard does not have a prescription diet or claim to cure an infection or blockage, we do formulate our products to produce an acidic urine (pH) and contain the essential amino acids (taurine and dl methionine) to help in the prevention of these problems. In all concerns regarding health matters, your veterinarian is the first and best source for treating any illness.

That is from the Petguard website..so not sure if it is any better in that aspect than the Friskies Special Diet. But I would love to know the best food for helping crf as well as I have been feeding the Friskies.
 
I took a quick peek at Meowzi's labs ss. She's had two u/a done in the last 2 years: 12/2008 and 9/2009. Both times, the pH was 7.0. Hardly in the "overly acidic" range; we may be hard-pressed to even call the readings acidic, I'd think?

The caveat here is I don't know what food she was on when those u/a were run. She was dx'ed with CKD around 9/08 I think. I do have her food records at home and can pull it out tonight. I am fairly certain she's been on Friskies Sp Diet at least from 2Q 2009 onward if not earlier, except for that short period in Sept. 2009 around the time of the u/a. She had a CP flare and a UTI both at the same time, and completely refused to eat, so we were enticing her with higher-phos Fancy Feast, and Wellness, Temptations treats, and even Royal Canin Renal L/P (gasp!). That mix of non-FSD foods may have reduced any acidity in her urine in time for her u/a. Or not?

(And before anyone takes what I write next seriously, please know that I barely passed chemistry class in secondary school, so I really have no basis for thinking what I'm thinking) :smile:

But I do wonder if:
1. her Lactated Ringers SQ fluids are not just tempering, but negating, the acidic effect of the FSD diet. She gets 150 mls of LRS daily, and possibly 200 mls during that CP-UTI crisis. Per Tanya's site: "If you are giving sub-Q fluids, using Lactated Ringers Solution (LRS) may be sufficient to correct mild acidosis, because the lactate is metabolised by the liver where it is converted to bicarbonate, which helps correct the acidosis."
2. one or both of her phosphate binders (aluminium hydroxide and Fosrenol/lanthanum carbonate) is also reducing/neutralizaing any acidity arising from her diet. She does gets gobs of both in her food.

If either or both are true, what a fortuitous, and completely accidental, coincidence :mrgreen:

Now I'm wondering if there are any consequences to urinary pH of 7.0, if urinary pH is supposed to be around 6.0 to 6.5.
 
Jill and Remi said:
That is from the Petguard website..so not sure if it is any better in that aspect than the Friskies Special Diet. But I would love to know the best food for helping crf as well as I have been feeding the Friskies.
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Turns out that my local petfood store doesn't have the Petguard flavors low in phosphorus anyway, so I'm back to square one in research. Right now I'm looking at Nature's Variety Prarie Beef (phos 183) and Venison (199), Nutro MCGC California CX Supreme (193) and Natural Choice Salmon & Oceanfish (150), Iams Turkey & Giblets (177), and Chicken & Rice Active Maturity (199). I was only able to confirm that the Iams and Nature's Variety have lower sodium levels. I think I'm going to try the Iams, and and Wellness Turkey (200).

Friskie's has two non-special diet flavors lower in phosphorus, but they're a bit higher in carbs. Fine Cuts with Chicken in Gravy (phos 169/carb 9) and Seared Filets with Turkey and Giblets (170/10). If I can find them, I might check those out, too.
 
Wow!

I've never seen it listed as Urinary Tract formula! I wonder if that's changed lately?? I know they were used in CRF kitties because they were lower in phos. Looking at the food charts, I'm wondering what the 'Senior' foods are? Maybe those are taking the place of the 'Special Diet' ones? Hmmmm very weird. I hope others who feed this for CRF will weigh in. I never used them for Cuddles, because she wouldn't eat any food that was lower in phos. (Weird huh??) Almost like the phos made it taste better. I have NO idea why, but none of my kitties would eat any lower phos foods (including Wellness). So I had to just feed regular Friskies, and watch her phos levels w/ her bloodwork. If needed, I would have used phos binders. Thankfully, she never needed them though, and her phos was always in the normal range. Her potassium did go low though, so she got fluids, as well as a potassium supplement. We have lots of bloodwork listed on the old profile, but not sure if it would help any since she wouldn't eat the Special Diet foods.
 
Julia & Bandit said:
Friskie's has two non-special diet flavors lower in phosphorus, but they're a bit higher in carbs. Fine Cuts with Chicken in Gravy (phos 169/carb 9) and Seared Filets with Turkey and Giblets (170/10). If I can find them, I might check those out, too.
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Not sure if you're aware, but these come in pouches, not cans. They end up being more expensive than the canned food b/c you'll have to feed almost two pouches to get the same calories as one can.
 
Question for the smart people

Jess? Janet? Or other smart ppl? When it was first suggested to me on the Fel. Phos. Mgmt group that I should consider changing Meowzi's diet b/c it is acidifying, I had thought the concern was metabolic acidosis. Now I've had time to think and read stuff that I still don't understand, I'm confused. I think I'm getting the impression that MA is a blood condition. Is urinary pH an indicator of metabolic acidosis? Or is urinary pH just an indicator of urinary pH, and of its own import, but has no connection with MA? Did I just erroneously link them together?
 
Julia & Bandit said:
Turns out that my local petfood store doesn't have the Petguard flavors low in phosphorus anyway, so I'm back to square one in research.
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Julia, I'm pretty sure GreenStar has some PetGuard flavors, but they're probably more expensive there, too. Also try the natural foods section of Wegmans. Not sure if Pet and Grain carries PetGuard - maybe that's the store you're referring to (or maybe you're talking about PetSmart, who has practically no good foods, IMO!). I often compare local prices to www.petfooddirect.com, and order from there if they have a 20% sale.
 
Suzanne + Nemo said:
Julia, I'm pretty sure GreenStar has some PetGuard flavors, but they're probably more expensive there, too. Also try the natural foods section of Wegmans. Not sure if Pet and Grain carries PetGuard - maybe that's the store you're referring to (or maybe you're talking about PetSmart, who has practically no good foods, IMO!)
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I was talking about Ithaca Grain, and Wegmans does have the Fish, Chicken, and Liver flavor but not the chicken and beef (and I had planned on feeding mostly the chicken and beef with occasional fish). I didn't know that greenstar carried it...

However, I'm going to have to call the company, because if the low phos food is acidified like Jill pointed out in the FAQ, then I have to find an alternative anyway. At this point, I'm thinking Iams and Wellness. The PetCo in Big Flats sells Wellness in the big cans, so it's not as expensive.
 
Update: Conflicting vet opinions!

So, I called to speak to my vet's office today, and I ended up with my regular veterinarian (General questions about Bandit and Gabby float between her and one of the other 3 vets at the practice, and it was a different vet who raised the alarm about the urinary tract diet). I decided to ask her if it would still be harmful to continue to feed Gabby the Friskies urinary tract diet if her pH was being periodically monitored for acidity, since it was becoming so difficult to find another suitable food for her. She then gave me a different story about urinary tract diets than the person I spoke to the other day!

She told me that yes, diets designed to lower urine pH are not good for cats with kidney disease. But---and this is a big but!...most non-veterinary commercial diets that claim to "lower pH" do not lower the pH significantly enough to cause problems for a CRF cat in early stages, and at the end stages you would want to feed a veterinary kidney diet anyway. However, since there are a few commercial urinary tract diets that might lower the pH to a questionable level, I should contact the company to find out what pH the food was formulated to maintain, and if it was above 6 then the food was fine to feed a CRF cat.

So I contacted both Friskies and Petguard. Petguard got back to me right away, and their food is formulated to maintain pH of 6.3-6.5. So that one is ok! I suspect Friskies Special Diet is probably around the same, and I'll post here as soon as I have the information.

So...I am very sorry to alarm people. I did do some reading of my own that seemed to support the alarmist vet's opinion, so I thought it was a valid concern, and that's why I wanted to know if there was information like this that I was missing. This is strike two for this particular person (this is the same person that recommended I feed plain probiotic yogurt to my diabetic cat, which turned out to contain sugar). I definitely am specifically going to ask for the other vets at the practice from now on.
 
Update: pH for Friskies Special Diet foods safe

Friskie's just got back to me...their Special Diet foods are formulated to maintain a pH of 6.3.
 
Thanks for your time and patience in getting this info...I know we all appreciate it. So Friskies is still a go I think.
 
Witn had both CRF and diabetes. When she was diagnosed with the diabetes I switched her over to the Friskies SD foods. For over the two years she was on it, her kidney values remained the same.
 
One thing I forgot to add from my conversation yesterday: we should keep in mind that the commercial urinary tract diets still run a higher risk of a CRF cat developing kidney stones than regular cat food, but periodic monitoring of urine pH can help head off this problem.
 
I would love to monitor Albert's urine pH more often. Is that something that can be done at home or does the vet have to do it? Will Ketostix work? Sorry for the dumb question.

I too give Albert Friskies Special Diet. His vet did mention to me that she thought it would be to acidic for him (but didn't explain why and I didn't ask) and to give him Friskies Senior instead. The Senior was mostly fish flavors, so I decided to stick with the Special Diet for flavor variety. Now I'm worried and think I should have listened to Al's vet.

Thanks.

Becky and AJ
 
Becky and AJ said:
I would love to monitor Albert's urine pH more often. Is that something that can be done at home or does the vet have to do it? Will Ketostix work?
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You can test his urine pH at home, but you have to buy seperate urine pH strips at the drugstore (or online). You collect the urine the same as you do when you test with the ketostix (which just test for ketones, not pH). Like the ketone testing, it's way cheaper to do it yourself than at the vet's office.

I think you made the right choice keeping him on the Special Diet flavors, as most of the Senior flavors are too high in phosphorus for a cat with kidney disease.
 
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