Freddie's update questions

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Yvonne & Freddie

Member Since 2014
3-16 AMPS 190 +3202 gave 1 unit Lantus

Freddie's testing was under 200 but I still gave 1 unit and will test often today. Last night he only ate little wet food and EVO NO W/D food. I have been trying to get him off of kibble W/D but he still is eating EVO to get him to eat soft food.
I am feeding him Cats in the Kitchen wet low carb, but he doesn't eat much of it yet. Hopefully in time we will do away with the hard food. He has been a kibble junkie most of his life..
I know EVO has a lot of fat in so that is bad for his pancreatitis and his weight. Fred is 17.5 lbs and is suppose to be on a diet too.

Would Young again be better food to use as a transition food?

How low would be safe for Fred's numbers to go?

Am I going to fast to transition him over to wet? Since his numbers have been so high for so long. Now they are going low not giving the W/D. My vet would not even hear of Fred being on ANY other food the W/D with his pancreatitis, diabetes and weight problems. I brought in the list of Dr.Pierson's food and he would not even talk to me about a change. I am doing this on my own and am seeing better results with all your help. TY
Also his back legs are real wobbly and he has a hard time to get up and walk. I say it is Diabetes Neuropathy vet says he has to have x rays to be sure and will not put him on Vit B 12 shots until x rays. I have been giving him 2 1/2 pills of zobaline for a week now his legs seem a little better and I am giving him cosequin 2 capsules a day. Should I see results faster then this. How much faster do they recover on the Vit B 12 shots.

Chris if you are reading I would like to write you personal with some set up ?.s Thanks

I would like some thought on Freddie's numbers are we doing better?

Yvonne and Freddie
 
Hey Yvonne and extra sweet Freddie!!

Of course you can send me a private message anytime. I might not be online when you send it, but as soon as I can, I'll get back with you!

As for your questions, first I see a few things you need to change. First, you don't increase his dose just because you see a higher pre-shot number. Lantus requires a consistent dose. Same dose, every cycle for at least 6 cycles. You need to give 1 unit, every 12 hours and get tests in as often as you can. IF Freddie were to drop below 50, that would mean he'd get a reduction.

You really have to get some tests in during the PM cycle too. You're doing pretty well on the AM cycle, but without knowing where Freddie's numbers are going at night, we're not able to see the whole picture. Most cats go lower at night, so it's really important for you to get those tests in too. I hated to do it since I really HATE mornings, but we ended up putting China on a 6am/6pm schedule so I could get both AM and PM tests in without being up TOO late every night. (and I can usually go back to sleep in the morning..lol)

Young Again, while a lower carb dry, still isn't zero carb. We think it's about 5%, but dry brings other problems other than just carbs. It's very hard on their kidneys, especially in boy cats! It's also very expensive and only available online.
Have you tried sprinkling FortiFlora on the wet food? It contains animal digest, which is what they spray on dry kibble to make it taste so good, so it's usually a very effective way to persuade those kibble addicts to eat wet. You don't use a whole packet...just sprinkle a little on each feeding.

There are other things you can try too, like oregano, catnip, parmesan cheese, bonito flakes, freeze dried meat sprinkles (chicken, shrimpies, liver etc.) and tuna water are all other things people have had some success with. You can also crush the kibble into a small powder and sprinkle that (if it's the only thing that will work)

On the Zobaline..it can take several months for you to see results, so you just have to hang in there and continue giving it.

You're doing the right thing getting him off the W/D, no matter what your vet says, so let's work on finding ways to get him to eat the lower carb foods without any kibble in the picture and see if that helps.

How low would be safe for Fred's numbers to go?
Click to expand...
As long as he doesn't go below 50, that's fine. "Normal" numbers for a diabetic cat are 50-120, so we want them spending as much time in those "normal" numbers as possible. Cat's have the unique ability for their pancreas to heal and return to normal function, so it's important to give it the time and support it needs.

Let us know how else we can help you!!
 
Chris,
I do have the FortiFlora, the freeze dried turkey, catnip (I grow my own), baby food and he still is very hesitant to eat wet food.
I have a bag of Stella and Chewy's chic chic freeze dried that he likes and I have some Nature's Variety Duck raw that I have not tried yet. I am trying to introduce things real slow with him so he doesn't have any tummy upsets. I haven't tried parmesan cheese or the bonito flakes. Oregano never heard of that one before. Will let you know on that. Have tons in my garden when and if spring ever gets here.

I MADE A LITTLE CHANGE IN INSULIN BECAUSE MY VET SAW HIS CHART AND WANTED ME TO DO 1.5 AM SHOT AND A 1 U. PM SHOT. I was too afraid to up it a half a unit so only did a smidge over the 1 unit.

So much has changed in Fred's life since 2-10-14. and he still is so sweet and loving. But I am worried that he really just sleeps most of the day because he has such a hard time walking. He mostly only eats if I offer it to him and really seems like he doesn't want to eat unless I really make it appealing to him..should he be on pepcid or appetite stimulant Mirtazipine. His vet just has a hard time giving me anything to help him always wants me to bring him in and it is just the most stress on Fred.
As much as I hate to test I am going to try every 2 or 3 hours today and do a few more into the night..will keep Fred's SS updated..let me know if this is what I should be doing and I am going to stay away from W/D cat food all day today. To see if that is making him spike.
I see China's SS and was wondering if you ever got any sleep!!!!
Would the B-12 shots work better then the Zobaline. If so I will get him on it somehow.
Yvonne
 
Remember....Lantus NEEDS consistent dosing. Since you haven't been doing that, there's no way your vet (or any of us here) can really know how it's doing.

If you must try to make your vet happy too (at least for now), you might want to go to 1.25 unit every 12 hours, but please do not give a different dose in the morning and evening!! Each dose has to have time to "settle in" before anyone can know how it's doing, and so far, you've skipped or changed doses so often, it's just impossible to know how Freddie is doing.

Since you gave 1 unit last night, and again this morning, you've already got 2 cycles at the 1 unit dose out of the at least 6 we'd want him on before making any changes. If Freddie were mine, I'd hold the 1 unit dose for at least 4 more cycles, and do whatever I had to do to get more tests in, especially at night. He COULD be going low at night, and then at AMPS time, you're seeing a "bounce"...Or 1 unit just might not be enough, but until you've followed the protocol, we can't say.

As for China's SS, yeah, I test often because I want to know how she's doing, and I want to keep her safe. The only way to do that is to test, although I know enough (NOW) about how China reacts to insulin and food, that there are days I'll test less because I already have a real good idea where she's going to be anyway. If she's in a bounce, I'll give the testing a break.

When we started, I was so bad at mornings, I started at an 11/11 schedule (No early mornings!!)...but then I found out that by waiting until 11pm to shoot, I could very well be up all night long, so that's when I decided to move her back to 6am/6pm. As much as I don't like getting up that early, knowing China's safe make it easy to go back to sleep if I want to in the morning, and I'm able to get a +6 at night (at midnight) and know if I should set an alarm, or am able to go to bed knowing she'll be fine in the morning.

Having the peace of mind of knowing that she's safe makes dragging my butt out of bed early worth it ~O) ~O)

The injectable B-12 works differently than the Zobaline, so from what I understand, most people use both. You can't overdose on B-12 since the body gets rid of any excess through the urine
 
I agree with you I am going to leave Fred's insulin at 1 unit and continue to get him on only wet food.
Thank you for explaining all this to me it is making more sense and I hope once Fred gets a normal schedule going he will get feeling better. I feel we have been all over with this. I started 6 & 6 at the very beginning (almost killed me) so when I skipped a few doses and then with the time change went to 8&8 which seems to work for us better. If it takes me setting the alarm I will do that no problem. sigh!!!
I am so afraid he will go hypo if his number went lower then 200...read for new comers not to shoot under 200.
Boy was I a confused mess reading and understanding better now but have a long way to go.
Fred is looking better at least, still no energy and has a hard time to eat but is not loosing so he is getting plenty to eat.

What is a bounce???

Thank you Yvonne
 
First, let me address your concerns about the 200 "no shot" limit. We set that but really it needs to be re-named. It doesn't mean you don't shoot. It means when you're new to all this, if you get a number under 200, you should post and ask for help. We just want to make sure you have someone watching over you the first few times because we all remember being new, and after everyone screaming about HYPO's, those lower numbers can seem scary. We call it "stalling"...You DON'T FEED, and post and ask for help. Edit the subject line in your first post to say something like "Stalling, help please!" to help get the attention of people scanning the board. While you're waiting, re-test in about 20 minutes. If the number is rising above 200, go ahead and shoot the normal dose. Remember, there are a couple of hours between the time you shoot, and the onset of the insulin, so if the number is rising, they're probably on the way up anyway.

As you learn more about how Freddie responds, that 200 limit goes down. Eventually, you will want to shoot any time they're above 50!! (yes, seems scary doesn't it?) So far, the lowest I remember shooting China was 56....but when you learn how your cat reacts, you can get to the point where you'll know it's safe.....and shooting those low numbers usually keeps them in lower numbers, which gives their pancreas the best chance of healing!!

Now for bouncing:
When we first start giving insulin, our cats have already been diabetic for an unknown amount of time, and their body has gotten used to living at those higher numbers, so when the insulin brings them lower than they're used to, or they drop a big amount quickly (like from 400-250 in 2 hours), the liver thinks it's an emergency and releases hormones and sugars it's stored just in case. It's a leftover survival mechanism from when our cats were wild, and times were tough. If their blood sugar got too low, those stored sugars and hormones kept them alive until they could find food. Unfortunately, Mr. Liver doesn't understand that times aren't tough! We want those lower numbers! So he does his job, and sends the numbers back up fast (BOUNCE!!)

The more time we can keep them in "normal" numbers, the more used to it Mr. Liver will be. He has to re-learn what it's like to live at those lower numbers.

When they first start, they can bounce really high, and it can take up to 72 hours for the bounce to "clear", so it's important to know when they're bouncing, and when their numbers are just too high due to not enough insulin. As they spend more time in lower numbers, the bounces won't be as high, and will clear faster.

Does that all make sense and help?
 
Chris
You are helping me soo much. It is making more sense to me and I am getting more relaxed doing the ear picks.
I just used the 30 g lancet and Fred didn't object so much and got blood right away, so his ears are learning to bleed.
His numbers today are staying pretty much the same. He is eating a couple of teaspoons of wet food at a couple of ear picks. NO kibbles....so the food is not spiking him.
Plan on doing testing into the wee hours after PMPS. Mainly around the 5-7 hour.
 
[Glucose reference ranges are unsubstantiated and have been removed by Moderator]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *​
Examples of using the chart:

Ex. You are a new insulin user and you test your cat before giving insulin. The test is 300. It probably is safe to give insulin.

Ex. You are an established user of Lantus, following the Tight Regulation protocol. You've tested around +5 to +7 to spot the nadir. It is 200 mg/dL. You probably need to increase the dose, following the instructions for the protocol.

Ex. Your cat is acting funny. The eyes are a bit dilated. You are concerned and test the glucose. The number is 35 mg/dL. ACK! The cat may be in a hypoglycemic state. You quickly follow the HYPO protocol linked in the glucose reference values chart. (which we really, really, suggest you print out and post on your refrigerator.)
 
Hi Yvonne. I'm glad you are here and dosing evenly now. I sometimes crumble a piece of Stella & Chewy's on top of the fancy feast to get Max to eat. Just one or two seems to work and I add a little water.


Elise
 
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