Forget the OTJ hope :(

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rbrumbaugh82

Today has been a bad day for Poopers and I honestly do not understand what is up with his damn pancreas. Pardon my language but I just do not understand how he could be staying below 170 before feeding and then once he eats his numbers drop to below 130 each time. However, today I wake up and his amps is 161. I have him eat and +1 later its 175. I wait a bit longer and about an hour later its 156. I been gone all day until 5pm and I tested it then. It was 209. I'm sure he didn't eat much throughout the afternoon but slept. He has done that before though and his numbers never jumped that high. So about 40 mins later I tested his glucose again and it was 243! I am giving him another chance to eat more and see if his damn pancreas will wake up and start working again. This is just frustrating the heck out of me because I don't know why all of a sudden his pancreas wants to take a break when its been helping the past 5 days!!!
 
Yeah I don't see any health issues beyond his diabetes and that he is a bit overweight. He eats fine and its been the same thing thing the past 5 days. He would eat and I'd check his glucose and his numbers would go down. Just don't know why today is any different.
 
I just did not want to think of giving him any insulin after all this time but when I go to check it here shortly again and its above 200 I have no choice. Guess I will give around .5 to .75 unit of insulin.
 
It could just be that his pancreas needs help for a little while longer. My Penny did great with her OTJ trial and great for over a year but recently had to restart insulin, so believe me, I understand your frustration. Give it another day and see what happens. I know when Penny was OTJ a hair ball could jack her up to the high 100s, low 200s and it would pass and the next day she'd be back down to her normal 60-90.
 
Sometimes you wont notice any dental issues. I didnt know anything was wrong with Hidey's teeth until he went in for a cleaning, and both times he had to have teeth removed. I only ask because thats what kept Hidey teetering on the OTJ wall. Once he had his cleaning and bad teeth removed its been smooth sailing.
 
The funny thing is that they coach cats to eat wet food to prevent urinary and kidney problems. However, wouldn't you think eating just wet food would be very harmful to the teeth versus eating dry food but drinking water?
 
I just took his glucose and it went from 243 to 199 so will wait a bit longer and test him again to see if it continues to go down. His pancreas seems to still be helping but not in large amounts like before.
 
154 was his last glucose number. So it has gone from 243 to 154 with eating in a matter of an hour and a half.
 
+1 hour and its at 135 now. Hope the food is jumpstarting the pancreas once more and it will continue to go down. Giving him more food again.
 
hello.
I was trying to look back thru some of your older posts for some history.... and looking at his spreadsheet.

Did someone in the past think it was time to start and otj trial and suggest it?
Or did you just think so because he was regulated. I would have just said you had gotten him regulated.... but he wasn't really ready for a trial.

Generally otj trials start after you have days of green and you are down to the most miniscule dose. Or you are constantly earning reductions because of low numbers.....
you go from 1 to .75 to .50 to .25 to .1 to one drop.
And you get so detailed that you actually count drops in your own particular syringe so that you can continue supporting the pancreas as long as you can.
That one drop can be hard to do....


Pooper's pancreas is definitely sputtering along and trying but I think ( imho) that you should go back to giving that tiny support so that
he will make it to remission and maybe even stay there.



back when I was on the otj trial, I kept having more blues than I wanted but the goal was the "green green grass of home " ( song reference)



eating dry food for the teeth is old school thinking in vet school these days.
The newest trend is brushing cat's teeth , like dogs.... and they can be taught.... there are video's on youtube but it sure is easier if you teach them from kittenhood. :D

If he's never had a dental, I would also look into it because it's just like you getting a cleaning at least once a year.....
Cat's should have one every few years.....
especially diabetic cats....
 
Please don't be so easily discouraged when Poopers and his pancreas do something a little unexpected. I just know this is going to work out for the two of you, given a little more time. Poopers' numbers are beautiful, even those that are slightly higher. And to think that he is so easily regulated by giving food... well, that just amazes me to no end! If you take a look at Hannah's Spreadsheet by comparison, I think you will have a whole new respect for what's going on with your fur baby. As they say here, "Put on your patience pants!" You will get there. It's just going to need a tad more time. In the meantime, best wishes to you and Poopers.
 
He hasn't been in the green. He has been mostly in the blue the whole time.
 
Thank you guys for your words of encouragement! I am hardheaded when it comes to protecting the ones I love. I know know from talking to all of you I have become more educated on this stuff. I have learned to test him often and when he goes high to let him eat and then trying to find the right wet foods that will help to regulate his pancreas to produce insulin so his numbers go down. Each time his number goes up I sit the food bowl in front of him and let him eat. Then an hour later I test him. If it is still high, I make him eat more and then test 30 mins to an hour later to see if it goes down which most of the time then it does. I just try to get him to eat as much of the 3.3oz can that I can. I would love to see Poopers be more in the green then blue but I'll take the blue over the yellow and reds anyday. I just pray that the continuation of eating the wet food will heal his pancreas so that his numbers stay low all the time.
 
I think I'd be adding that tiny dose to get him down where he should be. His chances are the highest for real remission right now.
And remission means a break from giving shots.....

but once a diabetic, always a diabetic....
they just become diet controlled.....and you have to be ready to start again if and when it is needed.

just sayin' .....:cool:
 
Well I was also told not to give any insulin if under 180 because being on N it can make his number drop really fast and for the most part he has been staying under 180.
 
rbrumbaugh82 said:
Well I was also told not to give any insulin if under 180 because being on N it can make his number drop really fast and for the most part he has been staying under 180.
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I'm no expert by any means but people give insulin at 100 so not shooting at 180 seems odd to me. The goal is to get them into remission not just manage it. Going OTJ with all blue numbers I believe is not the way to go, you should be still giving insulin I would think. Others here have a ton of experience so hope someone can steer you in the right direction.
Best of luck to you.
 
I'm glad you reminded me of that.
I am thinking of lantus.
But I do see the trending of staying in blues.... on his ss.

Lantus is better for getting to remission. I can see that you might only need to get one pen ( priced any where from $30 -60 depending on the pharmacy)

Many vets are happy with numbers in the 200's to 100's because that's regulation.
They aren't used to owners willing to work a little more to heal their cat..... after all, so many give up and don't even find this site.

It's always what You want to do.....

You are so very close..... and you've got the best support right here.
It depends on what your goal for him is.


When I got here, I couldn't sleep anyway, I read everyone else's condo , asked for help and was determined to get to remission if I could...
and I did.... 100 days of insulin.... and it's been over 2 years.
And it was everyone here.... the vet told me numerous wrong things and I'm glad I didn't listen to him.
 
Robin-S said:
I'm no expert by any means but people give insulin at 100 so not shooting at 180 seems odd to me.
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The BG at which it is OK to give insulin varies with both the insulin used and the response of the individual cat. Based on my experience of an intermediate acting insulin (Caninsulin) and a long-acting insulin (Lantus) the BG level at which I would feel safe to give Caninsulin to Saoirse was higher than the level at which I would feel safe to administer Lantus.
 
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Robin-S said:
I'm no expert by any means but people give insulin at 100 so not shooting at 180 seems odd to me.
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Critter Mom said:
The BG at which it is OK to give insulin varies with both the insulin used and the response of the individual cat. Based on my experience of an intermediate acting insulin (Caninsulin) and a long-acting insulin (Lantus) the BG level at which I would feel safe to give Caninsulin to Saoirse was higher than the level at which I would feel safe to administer Lantus.
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Just want to clarify that 5.5/100 is a normal blood glucose number. This is not a number at which people would, ordinarily, give insulin, and I wouldn't want anyone new reading this thread to get that impression.

The general advice here to those new to dealing with feline diabetes is to give no insulin below 11/200. That's until someone is comfortable with testing and has had a chance to get some experience of how the insulin is working in their cat. After that it is very likely that the preshot number will be lowered (but that isn't always the case, there have been exceptions).

As Aine ('Critter Mom') says above the "BG at which it is OK to give insulin varies with both the insulin used and the response of the individual cat".

There are some folks here using long acting insulins who do shoot at low preshot numbers. That's usually because their experience has shown them that this is what works for their cat and with that particular insulin.

Eliz


 
I won't shoot insulin if my boy is under 180 simply because his body varies with each shot. I have seen when I've given him insulin when at 195 and 3 hours later he was at 90 without eating. I can only imagine with eating and the shot together would drop his BG really low.
 
Also here lately his pancreas has been responding each time I have fed him food. I am about to input the numbers for today. Does anyone know anything about Sheba chicken pate or the turkey? The ingredients and nutrition data on it compares to Fancy Feast. However, I let my diabetic boy gobble it down this afternoon. I tested him at 3:30pm today and he was at 110. +2 hours later after he has eaten the Sheba canned food his number was at 220. I just can't imagine Sheba would cause his glucose to spike like that and not kick in his pancreas.
 
Hey Rhiannon, my goal is to have Poopers stay around 130 all the time but if he goes up above that as long as I can feed him and then see his glucose respond to dropping to below 130 then I'd be happy. I just want his numbers to always be in the blue but being in the green would be great too like some of the people's cats on here are at with OTJ. I just do not know what most people on here would say would be a great range to stay at for a healthy diabetic cat.
 
Regulation is lower 200s for pre shot and double digits for nadir (but not below 50). We also think the renal threshold (below which the pancreas can heal) is around 250. Some people are fine with regulated numbers below the renal threshold and figure the kitty will eventually slide down further. Some people push for remission, shooting lower ranges while monitoring carefully. (But I definitely agree with others. 180 is a nice cut off for N. 100 would be dangerous.).

It's up to you. You have to decide what is important to you and what you feel comfortable with. There is no one right answer.

He does seem to slide into those 100+ ranges fairly often with food. It is interesting that he doesn't get into many double digits. That may just be how he is going to be or it may be a shortcoming of the N. With the longer lasting insulins, there seems to be more opportunities to go lower as they are in lower ranges longer overall.
 
Have a look at the carbohydrate percentages of the different foods and see if there is a correlation between the carb % and lowering or raising of the BG.
 
Yeah I'm sure the N is a shortcoming to preventing him from staying in double digits. I know one day last week he went into double digits without insulin. He has been insulin free though for a week now because each time his numbers have gotten to 200+ I would just feed him more and more and a short time after his numbers would drop considerably. I just do not want to give him any insulin when his numbers are ranging from 130-160 because I'm afraid even with like .25 units it could drop his BG to below 70 with the combination of eating.
 
I appreciate your kind words. I know I may have it a bit better as far as regulating insulin then most of you right now but I won't brag about it. Its because of you guys I have learned how to regularly watch his glucose and take it when I need to which is a lot each day. I am thankful that the N has worked on him up to this point and that I have gone through foods to find something that may be helping to work like insulin. Right now I am trying him on Sheba Turkey and Chicken Pate's to see if it will regulate his BG because I want to offer him variety instead of just feeding Turkey and Giblets from FF. I would imagine that the Sheba Pate line is low carb like FF, or am I wrong?
 
Hey Alex, I happened to check out your SS for Fayaway. I noticed that you switched cat food from Hills to Friskies Mariner's Catch. Unfortunately fish related products are not good for cats to eat along with Beef. Its not their natural diet from what I am told and its best to stick to poultry and turkey along with rabbit. Fish can contain toxins and can overdose on vitamin A not to mention it can cause diarrhea, and kidney problems in cats. Have you tried your baby on any of the Fancy Feast Pate's non fish and salmon formulas? Try Sheba as well but avoid any of them with fish, any glutens, wheat, soy, corn, etc in them because that will not bring down his BG. That could be a reason for not getting his BG to go down because of ingredients in it that our babies should not have. Just a suggestion to try and see if that helps! Try Turkey and Giblets FF and see if your baby will eat it and then wait 40 mins or so and see if that drops his number down.
 
rbrumbaugh82 said:
Right now I am trying him on Sheba Turkey and Chicken Pate's to see if it will regulate his BG because I want to offer him variety instead of just feeding Turkey and Giblets from FF.
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Just a suggestion. How about sticking to the food that gives him the lowest numbers for now to see if the pancreas can heal a little more and maybe get him into greens and then OTJ? (No experience with the latter - just brainstorming.) Then maybe once he became diet-controlled maybe you could trial foods afterwards to see which ones suit him best BG-wise and also provide a bit of variety?
 
I would say that is fair enough! I went back to Turkey and Giblets FF and will just feed him that. My other babies want a variety so I am feeding them alongside the Turkey and Chicken Pate's from Sheba. I hope the food will help heal his pancreas more to where his numbers will consistently stay below 160
 
rbrumbaugh82 said:
Hey Alex, I happened to check out your SS for Fayaway. I noticed that you switched cat food from Hills to Friskies Mariner's Catch. Unfortunately fish related products are not good for cats to eat along with Beef. Its not their natural diet from what I am told and its best to stick to poultry and turkey along with rabbit. Fish can contain toxins and can overdose on vitamin A not to mention it can cause diarrhea, and kidney problems in cats. Have you tried your baby on any of the Fancy Feast Pate's non fish and salmon formulas? Try Sheba as well but avoid any of them with fish, any glutens, wheat, soy, corn, etc in them because that will not bring down his BG. That could be a reason for not getting his BG to go down because of ingredients in it that our babies should not have. Just a suggestion to try and see if that helps! Try Turkey and Giblets FF and see if your baby will eat it and then wait 40 mins or so and see if that drops his number down.
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Hey! Thanks so much for your note. Well, I switched to Mariner's Catch simply because it had the lowest carbs without it being Friskies' special diet (which neither of my cats like)...as per the recommendations of people here.

My biggest issue with Fancy Feast is those tiny cans! And it is a bit more expensive than Friskies. The two 5.5oz cans just make it so easy. I guess I could switch it up.

The funny thing, I always thought Sheba and FF were total s*** in terms of cat food (Friskies, too).

Anyone else have thoughts on fish-related wet food? If it comes down to protein source vs. carbs, which is more important at this stage?
 
An option is to gradually mix an undesired food into a more palatable food. Make up batches with 1 teaspoon per meal, then 2, etc. With different flavored "knocked" batches made up ahead and frozen in meal portions, you may be able to gradually shift the food preferences and avoid food refusals.
 
@BJM can you remind me of where to find that list someone compiled with all the commercial foods and the carb/protein/fat percentages? I can't remember where I found it last time...
 
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