Food change

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Terrelle

Member Since 2015
Hi guys, so Terry hasn't needed insulin for almost a month and she is still on Hill's Perscription w/d dry and wet food (she eats way more wet than dry). I test her every three days and she's coming up between 4-5 every time at different times of the day.

If I switch her to a lower carb food should I worry about her glucose dropping more? or should I try to find a food that has the same glucose content?

Mostly I want to switch her because this stuff is so darned expensive. I'll keep her on this dry stuff though since I know they shouldn't eat to much and this stuff is meant to control glucose levels.


Also as an update: we took her to a specialist and her good eye has a retinal degeneration disorder so good news is even if we had taken her sooner they wouldn't have been able to save her other eye and her good eye should go blind slow and painlessly :S
 
If I switch her to a lower carb food should I worry about her glucose dropping more? or should I try to find a food that has the same glucose content?

Mostly I want to switch her because this stuff is so darned expensive. I'll keep her on this dry stuff though since I know they shouldn't eat to much and this stuff is meant to control glucose levels.

Also as an update: we took her to a specialist and her good eye has a retinal degeneration disorder so good news is even if we had taken her sooner they wouldn't have been able to save her other eye and her good eye should go blind slow and painlessly :S

So sorry so hear that your kitty will eventually lose her sight, Terrelle - but at least it will be, as you said, later down the road and painless.

As for the food: As she is not on insulin, you really need not worry that low-carb food will send her plummeting into hypoglycemia.

The Hill's rx w/d dry is awfully high in carbs, though; I'm not sure about their canned formula. (I know that Purina/s DM dry, for comparison's sake, is equally high in carbs, yet their DM wet is only 3% carbs.) I ended up returning both Hill's formulas to my vet (the company provides a "money back guarantee" regardless of how much of it you've already used; hence you can get a full refund on those foods from your vet's office).

With any change in diet, do it gradually: 75% old food/25% new food for a few days, then 50/50 for a few days, then 25/75 for a few days before going to 100% of the new food. Bat-Bat uses a combination of Purina DM canned (@3% carbs) + Fancy Feast turkey/giblets Classic pate (@4% carbs); as she is extra carb-sensitive, I found that trying to feed her the FF alone actually raises her BG a bit more. (Frustrating!) But it doesn't look like you'd have that problem with your kitty, based on the #s I'm seeing in your SS. So you'd probably be just fine with carb content under 8% to 10% - which gives you lots more low-carb choices! Low-carb is always the best choice for a diabetic kitty, whether on insulin or not - unless, of course, there is some other health problem(s) that would require you to feed something with a higher carb content.

So, yes - I'd definitely ditch the high-priced Rx food from Hill's. There are better choices out there for your cat, and it'll be way easier on your bank balance, too! To help you with that, here's the food chart :)
 
Before I forget, Terrelle --- I didn't quite understand this sentence in your post: I test her every three days and she's coming up between 4-5 every time at different times of the day.

What did you mean by that?
 
Before I forget, Terrelle --- I didn't quite understand this sentence in your post: I test her every three days and she's coming up between 4-5 every time at different times of the day.

What did you mean by that?
sorry, I mean I test her glucose levels every 3 days and she's always between 72-90

Do you have any concerns on the quality of ingredients in fancy feast? Also the way my vet described the hills was that it has ingredients to help stabilize glucose levels which is why I was worried about switching her. Is there a chance she may need insulin again with a different food?
 
sorry, I mean I test her glucose levels every 3 days and she's always between 72-90

Do you have any concerns on the quality of ingredients in fancy feast? Also the way my vet described the hills was that it has ingredients to help stabilize glucose levels which is why I was worried about switching her. Is there a chance she may need insulin again with a different food?
(Sorry it took me so long to get back to you ...)

Thanks for clarifying that on the BG levels. Those are GREAT #s, btw - you must be thrilled!

I really don't have any concerns about giving Bat-Bat the the FF; so many here have used the low-carb Fancy Feast Classic pates with excellent results. All I can tell you about the Hill's is that when I returned it to the vet & told him how high the carb content was in the w/d formula, he was astonished --- & actually thanked me for Dr. Pierson's food chart data.

Can you refresh my memory here: Does Terry have any other health problem besides the retinal degeneration?
 
(Sorry it took me so long to get back to you ...)

Thanks for clarifying that on the BG levels. Those are GREAT #s, btw - you must be thrilled!

I really don't have any concerns about giving Bat-Bat the the FF; so many here have used the low-carb Fancy Feast Classic pates with excellent results. All I can tell you about the Hill's is that when I returned it to the vet & told him how high the carb content was in the w/d formula, he was astonished --- & actually thanked me for Dr. Pierson's food chart data.

Can you refresh my memory here: Does Terry have any other health problem besides the retinal degeneration?


I am so happy! It's really nice not to have to test and shoot all the time (and it gives us a bit more leeway at feeding times)

I had mentioned the high Carbs to my vet and she said it was the type of glucose that it had that helped stabilize cats, but I think especially now that she's getting such good numbers I can transition her.

As far as I know other than the eye problems she is healthy :). She had some liver problems as a kitten but hasn't had any since. She also had a cold a few months ago but was put on antibiotics and now aside from the occasional sneeze is fine. (we do live in a basement so I just figure it's that causing it because our other kitten sneezes occasionally as well)
 
I had mentioned the high Carbs to my vet and she said it was the type of glucose that it had that helped stabilize cats, but I think especially now that she's getting such good numbers I can transition her.

As far as I know other than the eye problems she is healthy :). She had some liver problems as a kitten but hasn't had any since.
Well, then I think you're good to go on making that transition. (Unfortunately, it sounds like your vet fell "hook, link & sinker" for the Hill's sales rep's fancy pitch ...)

As I mentioned earlier, there are many excellent choices for low-carb on Dr. Pierson's food chart - you don't have to go with FF necessarily. And from the #s you're getting from Terry now, I don't think you have to keep her down at the super-low carb end (like I'm stuck with for Bat-Bat); I think she'll do just fine on any canned foods she likes that are under 10% carbs! Lucky you - there's so much more variety available to you & Terry!
Just make sure you switch her over gradually - helps prevent any tummy upsets - warming the canned a little helps, too ... you know, to dead-mouse temp.:p (My Bat-Bat is a "scarf & barf" type chow-hound kitty, so I have to do things like make her take a food-rest (5 min.) halfway through her meal, add water to slow her down & raise her food plate up off the floor - all have really helped me keep the food in her stomach.

Let me know how it goes with Terry, ok? Even though she's not on insulin anymore, we all still really love to get updates from you on how she's doing! (She's lucky to have such a loving & committed "cat-mom.") :bighug: -
 
Do the friskies classics say classic on them? I'm having troubles telling the difference from all of their different lines...

and thanks :) I will be sure to make sure to keep you guys up to date
 
Do the friskies classics say classic on them? I'm having troubles telling the difference from all of their different lines... and thanks :) I will be sure to make sure to keep you guys up to date
Hi, Terrelle! Yes - on the front of the label @ very bottom, line reads (in small caps): CLASSIC.
(They sure don't make it too easy to see, huh? Especially when you get to where you need reading glasses, like I do!:p)
 
That's the Fancy Feast Classics with the line around the bottom saying CLASSIC. Friskies pates say pate as part of the product name.
 
That's the Fancy Feast Classics with the line around the bottom saying CLASSIC. Friskies pates say pate as part of the product name.
Oops, Sorry, Terrelle - my bad; BJ's right. Thanks for the catching that, BJ! Must have had Fancy Feast on the brain this morning ...:confused:
 
She also had a cold a few months ago but was put on antibiotics and now aside from the occasional sneeze is fine. (we do live in a basement so I just figure it's that causing it because our other kitten sneezes occasionally as well)

Lysine is excellent for managing and lessening the severity of URIs. I give it to my cats daily.
 
@Terrelle Lysine is also available online at Amazon and vitamin/pet sites. I was pleased to see it sold at a Costco pharmacy recently.

Several members here use the Now L-Lysine powder.
 
Another question guys, is it normal that terry is still urinating excessively even though her numbers have normalized? Our kitten is bigger and so is also peeing more so it's hard to tell who's is whos... I think they also pee on top of each other's but none the less I still think she is drinking a lot of water and peeing a lot... ideas? also have you tried absorbant litter instead of clumping? does it make it any easier?
 
Measure the amount of water you put down for them and how much is left when you next refill the bowl 24 hours later. Add in how much moisture is in both their food allowances for 24 hours. Keep a log of the amount consumed to see if there are any trends of increase.

What age is Terry, BTW? Did you feed dry before?


Mogs
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Measure the amount of water you put down for them and how much is left when you next refill the bowl 24 hours later. Add in how much moisture is in both their food allowances for 24 hours. Keep a log of the amount consumed to see if there are any trends of increase.

What age is Terry, BTW? Did you feed dry before?


Mogs
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Measure the amount of water you put down for them and how much is left when you next refill the bowl 24 hours later. Add in how much moisture is in both their food allowances for 24 hours. Keep a log of the amount consumed to see if there are any trends of increase.

What age is Terry, BTW? Did you feed dry before?


Mogs
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Hi, Critter mom, she's 12yrs old and yes she only really ate dry food before this all started. I called the vet and she wants me to bring her in to check her urine again for ketones and glucose and check her kidney function. as well as do another blood test to make sure her liver and thyroid are working ok. *sigh, I love terry so much but she really is bankrupting me.

My vet said that her diabetes may not be managed even though her glucose readings are coming up in range and we might have to put her back on insulin, but with her numbers being so low I don't feel comfortable and am worried that she'll go hypo.
 
Your vet sounds like a very switched-on cookie. :) I asked about Terry's age because I was wondering whether or not to recommend getting a full set of labs done to check the things that your vet has already covered.

Have you done any recent tests on Terry's BG? If you have, it would be really helpful if you could add them to her spreadsheet so we can have a look-see. If you're not spot-checking her BG at the moment, I'd suggest starting again. (It might be worth snagging urine tests at home, too, to check for blood glucose and ketones. Keto-Diastix or similar are ideal for this.) Try to get a mix of fasting BG and also some occasional +1 and +2 after meals. That will give you a rough idea of what range of BGs Terry is running under. I've been doing similar with Saoirse for a while. She has technically been just inside the typical range quoted for feline euglycaemia in veterinary sources but her clinical signs have not been as good since I stopped giving her insulin. For a comparator, Saoirse pees a fair bit because of her early stage kidney insufficiency but it's certainly not the lakes that were forthcoming from her before she started insulin treatment last year.

I've just had a discussion recently with our vet. Between Saoirse's upward drift in BG levels and worsening clinical signs despite still being in the 'healthy range' I have been contemplating giving her a short course of Lantus treatment to see whether I can get her back to where she was at the end of last year (she was amazingly well). I've just agreed to this trial with my vet. Note that I will be treating Saoirse with Lantus. Given that she's in 'normal' or near-normal numbers most of the time I would not be prepared to adopt this treatment strategy if my only choice was Caninsulin because it's too harsh and the drops are too steep. If Terry's BG range is in lower numbers but the vet feels that further insulin support may benefit her, I think it would be well worthwhile your asking your vet about treating her with a gentler insulin like Lantus.



Mogs
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Your vet sounds like a very switched-on cookie. :) I asked about Terry's age because I was wondering whether or not to recommend getting a full set of labs done to check the things that your vet has already covered.

Have you done any recent tests on Terry's BG? If you have, it would be really helpful if you could add them to her spreadsheet so we can have a look-see. If you're not spot-checking her BG at the moment, I'd suggest starting again. (It might be worth snagging urine tests at home, too, to check for blood glucose and ketones. Keto-Diastix or similar are ideal for this.) Try to get a mix of fasting BG and also some occasional +1 and +2 after meals. That will give you a rough idea of what range of BGs Terry is running under. I've been doing similar with Saoirse for a while. She has technically been just inside the typical range quoted for feline euglycaemia in veterinary sources but her clinical signs have not been as good since I stopped giving her insulin. For a comparator, Saoirse pees a fair bit because of her early stage kidney insufficiency but it's certainly not the lakes that were forthcoming from her before she started insulin treatment last year.

I've just had a discussion recently with our vet. Between Saoirse's upward drift in BG levels and worsening clinical signs despite still being in the 'healthy range' I have been contemplating giving her a short course of Lantus treatment to see whether I can get her back to where she was at the end of last year (she was amazingly well). I've just agreed to this trial with my vet. Note that I will be treating Saoirse with Lantus. Given that she's in 'normal' or near-normal numbers most of the time I would not be prepared to adopt this treatment strategy if my only choice was Caninsulin because it's too harsh and the drops are too steep. If Terry's BG range is in lower numbers but the vet feels that further insulin support may benefit her, I think it would be well worthwhile your asking your vet about treating her with a gentler insulin like Lantus.



Mogs
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I just updated her spread sheet. I have been spot test,

the vet is doing ageneral blood scan. I hope it's ok. she's acting normal.

I asked the vet about lantus and she said that lantus is much more powerful than caninsulin and that it would be more dangerous, and I do trust her because I know she has been consulting with a specialist about this.

we'll see what she says when we get the results back, maybe Terry would be fine on a quater of a unit or something, Terry's numbers are so low though :S opinions?
 
I asked the vet about lantus and she said that lantus is much more powerful than caninsulin and that it would be more dangerous,

WRONG! Lantus is longer lasting, but it does not produce anything like the hard drops that are characteristic of Caninsulin. I've treated my cat with both. Saoirse was first treated with Caninsulin (as is legally required in the UK). Shortly after her change to low carb wet food, even though she was not in remission I suspended Saoirse's insulin therapy as her numbers got lower because it became too dangerous to give her Caninsulin. She held OK numbers for about a week and then her numbers started climbing right back out of regulation - her pancreas had not had enough time to heal. I managed to get a Lantus prescription for her and I was able to continue to safely treat her with insulin for several months until she became diet-controlled. (Have a look at Saoirse's numbers on Caninsulin and on Lantus to see the difference.)

The trickiest aspect of managing a cat on Lantus is when a dose is too high and the cat drops to low numbers. Because of its depot nature, intensive monitoring for many hours may be needed to ensure that a cat remains in safe numbers. Caninsulin as an in-out insulin may be out of a cat's system faster than Lantus, but Lantus typically has a gentle lowering effect on blood glucose levels whereas Caninsulin can cause much bigger drops - even on a microdose - and that is not a characteristic you want in an insulin when treating a cat who is at quite low numbers to start with.

I've just looked at Terry's numbers. If it were Saoirse and she was at those numbers, frankly I'd rather stick my head in a hornet's nest and then ask someone to give the nest a good kicking than give her ANY Caninsulin. In fact, I would not give her Lantus at those numbers unless there was some major overriding clinical need to give it to her (e.g. if she was having a pancreatitis flare). Even then I would only be prepared to do so with extreme caution. I would need to ensure I could monitor her 24/7 until I had enough data to make sure she was safe and I would work on a tailored dosing protocol with our vet with a significant number of safety checks in it.

As far as the available data can show, Terry looks to be very well regulated. FDMB often quotes a BG reference range of 50-120 mg/dL as measured on a human meter as being acceptable for a diet-controlled cat. Terry's well within that range. Other members may have different opinions but I would really question whether blood glucose regulation has anything to do with Terry's pee volume. I'd recommend hanging fire on any insulin decision until:

1. the results of the diagnostic tests are in. (Did your vet book a fructosamine test, by the way?)

2. I had completed a period of secondary monitoring of fluid intake (from food and water in dish), urine output, and home urine testing (especially specific gravity).

I'd also post here to discuss things before making any decisions about insulin treatment.

... I do trust her because I know she has been consulting with a specialist about this.
Just because someone is a specialist it doesn't stop them being human and, like the rest of us, they don't always get it right. With every respect to your own vet (who is obviously very conscientious and caring) if the specialist has told your vet that Caninsulin is safer for cats at lower numbers than Lantus then s/he doesn't know the action profiles of both of those insulins well enough. (Again, see Saoirse's spreadsheet for a real world comparison of the two.)

To give you an idea of how badly wrong FD specialists can be, in August of last year our vets, in good faith, referred Saoirse's curves for interpretation to a diabetes specialist at a highly respected university veterinary hospital over here. Said specialist pronounced Saoirse a true diabetic who had little or no hope of ever achieving remission. Saoirse obviously didn't get the memo because she officially went into remission at the beginning of December. Saoirse has not had any insulin since mid-November of last year. Specialist schmecialist. :rolleyes: ;)

If it's a help, I'd be happy for you to send the link to Saoirse's 2014 spreadsheet to your vet so she can have a look at the difference in action of the two insulins in a clinical setting. Saoirse was a dream to regulate and she's not a bouncy cat so it's quite easy to understand her data and her (fairly text book) pattern of response to both insulins.

I'd very much like to hear how you both get on and it would be great if you could update us with your vet's findings. :)



Mogs
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WRONG! Lantus is longer lasting, but it does not produce anything like the hard drops that are characteristic of Caninsulin. I've treated my cat with both. Saoirse was first treated with Caninsulin (as is legally required in the UK). Shortly after her change to low carb wet food, even though she was not in remission I suspended Saoirse's insulin therapy as her numbers got lower because it became too dangerous to give her Caninsulin. She held OK numbers for about a week and then her numbers started climbing right back out of regulation - her pancreas had not had enough time to heal. I managed to get a Lantus prescription for her and I was able to continue to safely treat her with insulin for several months until she became diet-controlled. (Have a look at Saoirse's numbers on Caninsulin and on Lantus to see the difference.)

The trickiest aspect of managing a cat on Lantus is when a dose is too high and the cat drops to low numbers. Because of its depot nature, intensive monitoring for many hours may be needed to ensure that a cat remains in safe numbers. Caninsulin as an in-out insulin may be out of a cat's system faster than Lantus, but Lantus typically has a gentle lowering effect on blood glucose levels whereas Caninsulin can cause much bigger drops - even on a microdose - and that is not a characteristic you want in an insulin when treating a cat who is at quite low numbers to start with.

I've just looked at Terry's numbers. If it were Saoirse and she was at those numbers, frankly I'd rather stick my head in a hornet's nest and then ask someone to give the nest a good kicking than give her ANY Caninsulin. In fact, I would not give her Lantus at those numbers unless there was some major overriding clinical need to give it to her (e.g. if she was having a pancreatitis flare). Even then I would only be prepared to do so with extreme caution. I would need to ensure I could monitor her 24/7 until I had enough data to make sure she was safe and I would work on a tailored dosing protocol with our vet with a significant number of safety checks in it.

As far as the available data can show, Terry looks to be very well regulated. FDMB often quotes a BG reference range of 50-120 mg/dL as measured on a human meter as being acceptable for a diet-controlled cat. Terry's well within that range. Other members may have different opinions but I would really question whether blood glucose regulation has anything to do with Terry's pee volume. I'd recommend hanging fire on any insulin decision until:

1. the results of the diagnostic tests are in. (Did your vet book a fructosamine test, by the way?)

2. I had completed a period of secondary monitoring of fluid intake (from food and water in dish), urine output, and home urine testing (especially specific gravity).

I'd also post here to discuss things before making any decisions about insulin treatment.


Just because someone is a specialist, it doesn't stop them being human and, like the rest of us, they don't always get it right. With every respect to your own vet (who is obviously very conscientious and caring) if the specialist has told your vet that Caninsulin is safer for cats at lower numbers than Lantus then s/he doesn't know the action profiles of both of those insulins well enough. (Again, see Saoirse's spreadsheet for a real world comparison of the two.)

To give you an idea of how badly wrong FD specialists can be, in August of last year our vets, in good faith, referred Saoirse's curves for interpretation to a diabetes specialist at a highly respected university veterinary hospital over here. Said specialist pronounced Saoirse a true diabetic who had little or no hope of ever achieving remission. Saoirse obviously didn't get the memo because she officially went into remission at the beginning of December. Saoirse has not had any insulin since mid-November of last year. Specialist schmecialist. :rolleyes: ;)

If it's a help, I'd be happy for you to send the link to Saoirse's 2014 spreadsheet to your vet so she can have a look at the difference in action of the two insulins in a clinical setting. Saoirse was a dream to regulate and she's not a bouncy cat so it's quite easy to understand her data and her (fairly text book) pattern of response to both insulins.

I'd very much like to hear how you both get on and it would be great if you could update us with your vet's findings. :)



Mogs
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OK so good news is her diabetes is under control. Her glucose was actually slightly low (3.8). Bad news is she has early stage of kidney disease ... but at least we caught it early. So I'm going to go pick up her meds tonight and the vet said we can even try to give her the special kidney food since her glucose is doing so well :) *lesigh ... all of that panic for nothing#storyofmylife...

Thanks so much for the support guys :)
 
Bad news is she has early stage of kidney disease ... but at least we caught it early.
Hence the extra pee. Same here. :( Saoirse was diagnosed early stage II in March of this year.

the vet said we can even try to give her the special kidney food since her glucose is doing so well
WRONG! There is a little bit of debate about how much protein to feed a cat with CKD, but the general view is that it's not a good idea to feed special, low-protein 'kidney' diets until the later stages, since most CKD kitties have trouble maintaining muscle mass. In earlier IRIS stages phosphorus control is key. Head on over to Tanya's Site, the best place on the web to find out everything you never wanted to know about renal disease and how to treat it. The general recommendation on Tanya's Site is to feed a good quality high protein food - something suitable for a diabetic but low in phosphorus. If you can't get your cat to eat a food low enough in phosphorus then you can add phosphorus binders to their food.

... all of that panic for nothing #storyofmylife...
You hum it, I'll play it. :rolleyes:;)


Mogs
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Just as there's no need for expensive prescription diets for sugar cats, the same for CKD.

Check out http://www.catinfo.org/docs/FoodChartPhosphorus9-22-12.pdf and look for the foods low in carbs and phosphorus.

Wealth of info for CKD at: http://www.felinecrf.org/ and there is an excellent forum there as well. A lot of members here have gotten a lot of help from that site and forum.
Do you know what phos % I should stay under? I'm waiting for acceptance into Tanya's group
 
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