Dry Food

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Doodles & Karen

Doodles & Karen

Member Since 2015
After 2.5 months of trying many different wet food, my Doodles simply will not eat more than about a 1/4 can. he seems to like FF so we're sticking with it. Since he won't eat enough wet we have to provide him dry food. Any opinion on EVO Turkey & Chicken vs. Purina Pro Vet Plan - DM (Dietetic Management)? My vet specialist recommended the DM but it has 18% carbs and gluten vs. the EVO has 8% carbs and zero grain/gluten. What has me concerned about the DM is the first 3 ingredients are Poultry by-product meal, soy protein isolate, corn gluten meal, soy flour..... EVO's ingredients are Turkey, Chicken, Chicken Meal, Tapioca Starch.
 
Doodles said:
After 2.5 months of trying many different wet food, my Doodles simply will not eat more than about a 1/4 can. he seems to like FF so we're sticking with it. Since he won't eat enough wet we have to provide him dry food. Any opinion on EVO Turkey & Chicken vs. Purina Pro Vet Plan - DM (Dietetic Management)? My vet specialist recommended the DM but it has 18% carbs and gluten vs. the EVO has 8% carbs and zero grain/gluten. What has me concerned about the DM is the first 3 ingredients are Poultry by-product meal, soy protein isolate, corn gluten meal, soy flour..... EVO's ingredients are Turkey, Chicken, Chicken Meal, Tapioca Starch.
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In your earlier post you'd written (background for others viewing your situation): "We had an emergency vet visit last week as we can't seem to get my boy leveled. We're now seeing an internal medicine/nutrition specialist. They changed his insulin from Vetsulin to Lantus (holy cow on the price difference!) Although he's been more active and alert this week than in a while. Today we're going back, I need to learn how to do glucose checks at home and I'm really nervous! He also is taking anti nausea meds so we're upto 3 shots a day. One challenge has been changing his diet from dry to wet and only feeding 2 times a day. The specialist is now advising it's ok if he only eats a little wet food and allows him to graze on DM dry food. On top of this now he's being tested for digestive Lymphoma and Inflammatory Bowl Disease. They both look the same unless you do an endoscopy. How much can these babies take? So sad.....how long has Melty been diabetic? We're only 2 months into this....."

Ok ... First thing: The D/M dry is actually 31% carbs, so we don't recommend you use it. That said, if you've already been feeding the D/M dry, you don't want to suddenly go to low-carb dry all at once, as this can cause a dramatic drop in blood glucose #s overall & the need for a reduction of insulin. Better to do the food transition gradually.

Next: You said you went back to vet to learn how to test Doodles' BG #s yourself - are you doing this? Is VERY important you do this - especially now when you're trying to shift your cat to all low-carb diet (for the aforementioned reason).

Next: You had mentioned 3 shots a day ... do you mean an anti-nausea shot + 2 doses/day of Lantus?
Or are you shooting Lantus 3 times/ day? (If so, why???)

Finally: We will need to see history of his BG #s - so that when you're home-testing his blood glucose, we can see what's going on with Doodles - this will enable us to give you better advice. (And can you give us your first name?)
Hang in there - you've come to the right place; we're all here for you!
 
We had to give him the anti-nausea meds for about a week but that is done now. Before the emergency trip we were on the EVO but very limited and FF. We basically started from scratch 3 weeks ago and moved to the Lantus 1 unit twice a day. We are testing at home now so feel much more comfortable. He's only been on the DM for these 3 weeks. Below are the results his curves done at 1 unit and 1.5 units. Today we moved him to 2 units and I'll do a new curve in 6 days. I've also decided to go back to the EVO and will watch him closely and do spot checks to make sure he's not dropping too much. He only eats about a 1/4 can of the wet food. The vet said it is because he was raised on dry and does not recognize the wet consistency as actual food.

1 Unit Curve- 373, 350, 387, 349, 414, 426, 456
1.5 Unit Curve - 346, 312, 274, 309, 330, 403, 463

He also has neuropathy in his hind legs although he's trying to get back on his toes! Some days are better then others. We sprinkle vitamin B-12 in his food every morning.

Once he's regulated we go for an Upper GI Endoscopy to determine if he has small cell lymphoma or Inflammatory Bowl Disease
 
Doodles said:
We are testing at home now so feel much more comfortable. Today we moved him to 2 units and I'll do a new curve in 6 days. I've also decided to go back to the EVO and will watch him closely and do spot checks to make sure he's not dropping too much. He only eats about a 1/4 can of the wet food. The vet said it is because he was raised on dry and does not recognize the wet consistency as actual food.

1 Unit Curve- 373, 350, 387, 349, 414, 426, 456
1.5 Unit Curve - 346, 312, 274, 309, 330, 403, 463

He also has neuropathy in his hind legs although he's trying to get back on his toes! Some days are better then others. We sprinkle vitamin B-12 in his food every morning.

Once he's regulated we go for an Upper GI Endoscopy to determine if he has small cell lymphoma or Inflammatory Bowl Disease
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I bold-faced the phrases above because I'm unclear about the manner in which you are testing: So are you not testing pre-shot? Because you really MUST do this. Simply doing a curve in 6 days is not enough data.
 
(From my previous post): Simply doing a curve in 6 days is not enough data.
Especially when you've just upped his dose of insulin again.
 
Those curves were done in one day over a 12 hour period so the first number is before his morning shot. The vet advised it is not necessary to test every morning but rather do random spot checks in between curve days. The next 12 hour curve will be in 6 days with this new dose. I don't work so I'm with him all day and night. Hardly leave the house for more than an hour or so at a time.
 
Doodles said:
The vet advised it is not necessary to test every morning but rather do random spot checks in between curve days.
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Sorry, but your vet is apparently not too well-versed on treating diabetes - because by NOT testing pre-shot, both AM & PM, you could be administering insulin when you should not, or at too high a dose! Had it been me, my response to this vet would have been:

"You don't want me to check my kitty's blood glucose level before I give him an injection of a powerful hormone - even after you've told me to INCREASE the dose??? :eek:Are you going to run over to my house in the middle of the night to treat my cat for hypoglycemia if he bottoms out on me after I'd given him insulin without first checking his BG # to make sure it is safe to shoot?" :nailbiting:

Sorry, _________. (insert your name here, dear person of Doodles) But I simply cannot believe the "guidance" some veterinarians :blackeye: give to those of us who are trying to treat our sugar-cats. :banghead::banghead::banghead: Good grief!

We here at FDMB would be hard-pressed to give you any real guidance/ assist without knowing what your kitty's pre-shot #s are.
In treating feline diabetes, careful monitoring @ home is key, and plugging that data into a spreadsheet daily is also key. (There are other members here who will be happy to help you get set up with a spreadsheet.):bighug:
 
Sorry, had to run an errand. I understand what you are saying. How long has your cat been diabetic? Your input is appreciated as I too wonder about vets and doctors myself. I'll check him before his evening shot and let you know the reading. Do you adjust the insulin often on yourself off readings? My current goal is to get him regulated with nothing higher than 400 at the peak nor lower than 150 during the day. If we would've started testing at home from the beginning our situation would be better. So I'm scratching the last 2 months and only looking at the past 3 weeks since we restarted the process under the internal medicine specialist.
 
Doodles said:
Sorry, had to run an errand. I understand what you are saying. How long has your cat been diabetic? Your input is appreciated as I too wonder about vets and doctors myself. I'll check him before his evening shot and let you know the reading. Do you adjust the insulin often on yourself off readings? My current goal is to get him regulated with nothing higher than 400 at the peak nor lower than 150 during the day. If we would've started testing at home from the beginning our situation would be better. So I'm scratching the last 2 months and only looking at the past 3 weeks since we restarted the process under the internal medicine specialist.
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Hi again, Karen - The guidance of the good people on FDMB has been essential to the success I've experienced to date in treating Bat-Bat for her diabetes. Most all of us, I think, have encountered vets who don't encourage careful home monitoring of BG levels - this is simply wrong-headed thinking! But I understand how some vets may get to thinking that way, as there are pet-owners out there who simply cannot or will not (for any number of personal/financial/philosophical reasons) treat a pet for diabetes. (Some people just throw up their hands when they get the dx and say, "Euthanize." Horrifying, but true.)

But feline diabetes is so treatable - as you will quickly learn here. My cat was first dx'd in 2013. Treated with Lantus; in remission (no insulin) within 8 wks.
Stayed in remission until end-Feb 2015, when she got a urinary tract infection. Now on ProZinc, at very tiny dose, only as needed. (ProZinc only because vet recommended/had on hand & she was so sick that I panicked; otherwise I would have gone with Lantus again had there been more time.)

What kind of meter are you using to test? A human glucometer or an Alpha Trak? We will need you to get set up with a spreadsheet here, so that you can plug in the results of your blood glucose tests & your doses of insulin. As you get more and more data into your spreadsheet, you'll be able to get a clearer idea of how your unique kitty responds to the insulin you're giving him, cycle-to-cycle, day-to-day.

Your goal should be to get him under the renal threshold (400 is high, but that # will come down with treatment.) As for dosing, we like to say: "Start Low, Go Slow." Blood glucose that is a little too high is always far safer than suddenly dropping too low. If you hop over to the Lantus Forum" you'll find some "stickies" at the top of the page - one contains the protocols for treating with Lantus. READ THESE, they contain a wealth of information.

On Lantus, it is not recommended that you adjust a dose too quickly; usually want to wait 5 to 6 cycles before making a change, except in those cases when your kitty goes into the hypoglycemia zone. If that happens at any point in the cycle after an injection (too low a #), that DOES require a dose reduction at the very next shot time, in addition to immediate treatment for hypo (PRINT OUT THAT STICKY & POST IT ON YOUR REFRIGERATOR).

Karen, you are in a wonderful position to learn & effectively treat Doodles, as you can be home with him for testing/monitoring closely. Being able to be at home with him - especially early on in treatment - is a real plus!

I know you'll have many more questions and that's just fine - that's what we're all here for: For you & your sugar-cat! :)
 
(By the way, re: my comments in last post about ProZinc - I am in no way bashing ProZinc; it's a very good insulin choice.
I just would have preferred Lantus because I'd had such a good result with it the first time around.)
 
Thank you Robin, it's a lot to take in but we'll get there. We're using the alpha trak meter. I'll start checking him daily or at least every other day. My husband needs to help me with testing and is not always around.
 
Doodles said:
Thank you Robin, it's a lot to take in but we'll get there. We're using the alpha trak meter. I'll start checking him daily or at least every other day. My husband needs to help me with testing and is not always around.
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That's the meter I use, too. Make sure you have the Alpha Trak blood glucose ranges (rather than those for human-type meters) at top of the page when you get around to doing a spreadsheet. For an example of this, take a look at my cat's spreadhsheet. Just click: Bat's AlphaTrak2 SS
You really do need to check BG levels - every time - before you shoot Lantus (or any insulin, for that matter) to ensure the safety of your cat. (The sequence: Test/Feed/Shoot.)
Otherwise you are - in a very real sense - shooting "in the dark," no matter what your vet told you. :eek:
Please keep your kitty safe! :cat: We're here if you need us. Best to you and Doodles - Robin
 
Robin&BB said:
But I simply cannot believe the "guidance" some veterinarians :blackeye: give to those of us who are trying to treat our sugar-cats. :banghead::banghead::banghead: Good grief!
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My vet never told me to test pre-shot, or do a curve, either. She showed me how to do a blood draw with a syringe from Squallie's leg and told me to test him roughly every other day. She also put him on Proplan DM. I am so glad I came to FDMB and got all the wonderful advice from those who know best from dealing with it every day! Karen and Doodles, this is definitely the place to be for answers and support! It sounds like you are on the right track already!

@Robin&BB, how do I get Squallie's Alphatrak spreadsheet to have the correct values at the top?
 
how do I get Squallie's Alphatrak spreadsheet to have the correct values at the top?[/QUOTE]
@Squalliesmom - Man, that's a good question. Unfortunately, I don't know the answer! (Sue & BJ set mine up.)
You might want to post that as a new thread in the Tech Support area & title it something like: "How the HECK do I get Alpha Trak value @ top of SS???" (Sorry, Lucy - I'm totally tech-challenged!)
 
Robin&BB said:
how do I get Squallie's Alphatrak spreadsheet to have the correct values at the top?
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@Squalliesmom - Man, that's a good question. Unfortunately, I don't know the answer! (Sue & BJ set mine up.)
You might want to post that as a new thread in the Tech Support area & title it something like: "How the HECK do I get Alpha Trak value @ top of SS???" (Sorry, Lucy - I'm totally tech-challenged!)[/QUOTE]
Lol, I am, too!
 
I put a link in the Tech Support forum for it, plus one for using the Merck Veterinary Manual reference values, since the AlphaTrak is supposed to parallel what a lab gets.
 
Doodles said:
Thank you Robin, it's a lot to take in but we'll get there. We're using the alpha trak meter. I'll start checking him daily or at least every other day. My husband needs to help me with testing and is not always around.
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If you find the cost of AT2 test strips horrifying, as I did, you can use Freestyle Lite strips. They're made by the same company, look identical and the BG numbers run very close. If you want see the info that some of us have posted on this, in the search bar, type in Freestyle Lite. My vet was amazed when showed him the info and he even tells people about it now.
 
How often are you feeding him? Some times, smaller more frequent feedings can provide the nutrition needed. And, over the course of a day satisfy you baby as well. When I attempted to feed twice daily (which is the frequency of insulin delivery), she was always crancky and out of sorts. Her sugars were the same way. Just a thought to ponder. Good luck from jane and stewey.
 
We tried the twice a day feeding and it was horrible for him. This was based on the recommendation of our vet and also removed his dry food. Basically he rejected both ideas which put us in the emergency vet hospital. The new internal medicine vet is fine with him grazing, and eating a combination of dry & wet. It's more important that he eats rather than being so stringent. He's picky and has lost a ton of weight and we're trying to put some pounds back on. Once we feel he's regulated on insulin he goes for an Upper GI to determine if he has small cell lymphoma or Inflammatory Bowl Disease. This is part of the reason he is on Purina DM as it seems to be ok for his small intestine issues. I also posted an updated carb count for the Fancy Feast Classics in another thread.
 
Doodles said:
We tried the twice a day feeding and it was horrible for him. This was based on the recommendation of our vet and also removed his dry food. Basically he rejected both ideas which put us in the emergency vet hospital. The new internal medicine vet is fine with him grazing, and eating a combination of dry & wet. It's more important that he eats rather than being so stringent. He's picky and has lost a ton of weight and we're trying to put some pounds back on. Once we feel he's regulated on insulin he goes for an Upper GI to determine if he has small cell lymphoma or Inflammatory Bowl Disease. This is part of the reason he is on Purina DM as it seems to be ok for his small intestine issues. I also posted an updated carb count for the Fancy Feast Classics in another thread.
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So sorry to hear that Doodles is having additional problems. Is very good that you have provided the forum with this additional information on his health picture. Has Doodles always been a picky eater? Perhaps when your vet suggested the change in feeding regimen & diet, his body's response was the warning bell, telling you that there's more going on with him than just being a finicky eater. Is often so hard to know when there's something wrong with your kitty ... (When Bat-Bat got a UTI, I remember how shocked I was when told that she had gone diabetic, too.)

Yes, is very important that he eats whatever he can eat whenever he will, considering his weight loss & other the gastrointestinal issues you've just mentioned.

Noting Janeand Stewey's post above about her experience with feeding 2x daily: That approach is NOT for every cat - works for some, but not for others - just as more frequent feedings work for some, but not for others. I doubt that anyone here would ever suggest feeding only twice a day (meaning AMPS/PMPS) to anyone who has made us aware that a kitty has any additional health complications (CDK, pancreatitis, cancer, et al.), as this would be contraindicated for such cases.

I hope getting Doodles BG#s down with insulin therapy will go well for you, so that your vet can determine the cause of his GI difficulties and get that resolved. Wishing you the best - and please keep us posted! :bighug:
 
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