Dry catfood, diabetes friendly?

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Ilkka and Tom

Ilkka and Tom

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Hi

I am a longtime user of the boards here. (changed UID once) but basically I have a wonderful and lucky cat (Tom) who is now into his 15th month of remission, thanks to Levemir and some major blessings.

QUESTIONS: is it categorically true that there is no dry catfood that is compatible with the needs of a diabetic cat? I've simply assumed that is so (have looked into what goes into dry catfoods and how they are made, the binders etc), but if this assumption is wrong or even partly wrong, please reply.

Many thanks
Ilkka and Tom
 
There's a new dry food on the market that supposedly contains no starch. It's Wysong Epigen. Although I primarily feed canned food to all of my cats now I do have one hold out so have to keep a bit of dry food out which means having to find solutions to the carb issue. This food seems to meet the criteria and I've cleared it with my vet. You can check it out at http://www.wysongepigen.net. I'm not advocating using dry food but this food is using a new process and supposedly has no starch (carbs).
 
mdelisle said:
There's a new dry food on the market that supposedly contains no starch. It's Wysong Epigen. Although I primarily feed canned food to all of my cats now I do have one hold out so have to keep a bit of dry food out which means having to find solutions to the carb issue. This food seems to meet the criteria and I've cleared it with my vet. You can check it out at http://www.wysongepigen.net. I'm not advocating using dry food but this food is using a new process and supposedly has no starch (carbs).
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Wysong's new Epigen line is starch free- but it does contain protein from grains :-| Not sure if that would be ok for a diabetic or not.

Ingredients: Organic Chicken, Chicken Meal, Chicken Giblets, Vegetable Protein (consisting of one or more of the following: Potato Protein, Rice Protein, Corn Protein, Wheat Protein), Poultry Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols as a source of Vitamin E), Eggs, Yogurt, Flax Seed, Apple, Beet Pulp, Plums, Inulin, Dried Wheat Grass Powder, Dried Barley Grass Powder, Krill Oil, Dried Kelp, Taurine, Oregano Extract, Sage Extract, Rosemary Extract, Direct-Fed Microorganisms (Bacillus subtilis, Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus plantarum, Lactococcus lactis, Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus lactis), Ascorbic Acid, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Manganese Proteinate, Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Copper Proteinate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin A Acetate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement.

~ COMING SOON! NEW EPIGEN™ FORMULATIONS ~
To enable rotation of the diet with varying protein sources the following formulations are forthcoming:

Epigen™ Fish Formula Ingredients: Fish Meal, Pea Protein, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols as a source of Vitamin E), Apple (source of soluble fiber), Beet Pulp (source of prebiotics), Plums (antioxidant source), Inulin (prebiotic), Blueberries (antioxidant source), Tomato (source of lutein), Taurine (amino acid), Oregano Extract (antioxidant source), Sage Extract (antioxidant source), Rosemary Extract (antioxidant source), Probiotic Microorganisms (Bacillus subtilis, Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus plantarum, Lactococcus lactis, Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus lactis), Ascorbic Acid, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Manganese Proteinate, Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Copper Proteinate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin A Acetate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement.

Epigen™ Venison Formula Ingredients: Venison Meal, Potato Protein, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols as a source of Vitamin E), Apple (source of soluble fiber), Beet Pulp (prebiotic source), Plums (source of antioxidants), Blueberries (source of antioxidants), Inulin (prebiotic), Krill Oil (source of omega-3 fatty acids), Taurine (amino acid), Oregano Extract (antioxidant), Sage Extract (antioxidant), Rosemary Extract (antioxidant), Probiotic Microorganisms (Bacillus subtilis, Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus plantarum, Lactococcus lactis, Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus lactis), Ascorbic Acid, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Manganese Proteinate, Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Copper Proteinate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin A Acetate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement.

http://www.wysong.net/products/epigen.php

Dr. Lisa's web site http://www.catinfo.org will tell you that dry food isn't a natural food for any cat, diabetic or not. Cats in the wild eat raw meat, not dry crunchy kibble. Canned food is more appropriate and is easy for most people to feed. RAW is best but not everyone can afford commericial RAW food or want to make their own. Dry food in general lacks moisture which causes dehydration and obesity and other health issues.

If a cat will eat canned or RAW food, there is no need to also give dry, IMO. For hard crunchies, you can give a healthy treat such as Poultry Crispises from OnlyNaturalPet.com

For diabetic cats who must have dry for whatever reason, you'll just need to adjust the insulin dose to counteract the carbs. Even grain-free dry like EVO has a small amount of carbs that may raise blood glucose levels.

My two cents :smile:
 
There are no categorical rules for cats of any type! However, dry food does tend to be higher in carbs than the canned ones we recommend, and that can significantly affect a cat's BGs. To use dry food for an occasional treat, look for the lowest carb ones (preferable NO grain, and real meat protein) you can find.

The other huge reason we caution against dry is because of kidney health. A cat's most vulnerable organ is their kidneys - kidney failure is the leading cause of death (by disease) in cats. And we all know that diabetes is a strain on the kidneys already. Moisture intake is VITAL for good kidney health. Dry food is... well... dry. And cats have very low thirst drives, so never get enough water by drinking. The moisture has to be in their food. A cat at a water bowl is already dehydrated.
 
Hi

I'm new to all this my cat was diagnosed last month. Wellness makes a no grain formula called CORE. The meat and other very healthy ingredients are bound by a small amount of sweet potato which is lower on the glycemic index. I have fed core for all my pets for two years with excellent results. However if your cat has kidney issues this is probably too high in protein. I have given my cat the EVO 95% canned meats for dogs which he loves and the CORE meats and the 95% Wellness meats. Dr. Pierson's site is a good reference. Even the dog foods have taurine in it. No matter what grain free diet you feed its important to feed a high quality food for over all health. The Whole Dog Journal rates dry dog food brands/companies annually in February and I think they do canned foods in January. It helps to see which companies are dedicated to top quality nutrition.Hope this helps :smile: Kathy and Powder.
 
I don't advocate for feeding dry food but Wyson supposedly extracts the protein from the carbs then only uses the protein extracted in the Epigen. Puckett was diagosed back in late Feb and I've been switching everyone over to canned food but I have one hold out and that's why I now use the Epigen in very small amounts. Mooch (Puckett's brother) just won't eat much canned food and taking away the dry food doesn't make a lick of difference. He will only eat a tiny bit of canned food (maybe 3-4 tiny bites). I only put out 1/2 cup of the Epigen daily and mind you there are 6 kitties in this group. Mooch is really the only one eating the Epigen at this point. If the others eat it at all it's only a couple of kibbles. They all much prefer the canned food to the dry now.
 
KathyS said:
Hi

I'm new to all this my cat was diagnosed last month. Wellness makes a no grain formula called CORE. The meat and other very healthy ingredients are bound by a small amount of sweet potato which is lower on the glycemic index.

Kathy and Powder.
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Thanks.. we thought someone would explore lo-gluc ways of binding the ingredients.

Ilkka and Tom
 
If I were lucky enough to have a cat in remission I would not be making an experiment out of my kitty over silly dry fud. :smile:

When my kitty would not eat and I had to resort to some dry I did have more success with EVO vs Core in terms of effect on BGs. One idea I had was that the carb content of dry food may vary more with batches. Most canned food is made by one maker [Menu Foods] then labeled for the brand/flavor. Dry food is made in many places under many conditions from many sources. Thus I would expect the manufacturing process of wet food to be more consistent. This site claims to have had EVO analyzed and it had 13% carbs and not the 7% it was marked with at the time:
http://www.yourdiabeticcat.com/diet.html
 
It seems to me that this food has a bunch of extracted proteins from certain types of veggies and grains that we normally wouldn't give to kitty. Now, many companies who make things like rice protein powders and whey protein powders will say that there is no allergens in the proteins from said produce contained in their extracted versions. Typically these proteins are removed in a lab and cultured somehow so all that is left is just the simple protein. However, plant proteins are not complete proteins like meat is... plant proteins are missing some specific amino acid making it not a complete chain and supposedly not exactly the same. Some people believe if you supplement the missing amino acids from the plant proteins, and take them at the same time as eating the plant protein then all should be well.

That being said, I probably still wouldn't feed my cat that dry food. I don't think cats need to be eating anything like potatoes, wheat or anything like that because they're simply not supposed to. And since I'm sort of a hippy I like to go natural before shoving crap in my cats body he doesn't need :)
 
Fred's just getting over his bout with Hemobart. His numbers (in remission from March to June) are now jumping around, but averaging around 120. He gets shots some days, not on others, after testing. The Anemia is over.

Now he's just getting tired of the canned foods! I can't tell you how many cans have been given to the possum because he just wouldn't eat it. I tried Fancy Feast -- and, forgive me -- some foods with gravy's just to get something into him. If he doesn't eat, that spikes his BG's, too. I'm baking chickens and even cooked some venison from a hunter friend to keep the protein coming in. (Fred won't eat raw.) Other than my worry, he's fine....bounces around and seems OK, but drinking a little more, lately.

I've been interested in the dry food discussion because he did eat some of "Lucy's" treats (Nutro) one day and that put something in his stomach. I had hoped there would be some form of kibble that would keep him interested in eating....and keep my budget on track. What I'm hearing is that it isn't possible. Kibble is cotton candy and that's that.

So, what do you do with a picky eater? Do you let him go hungry until he decides to eat again? Isn't that dangerous? And, how often should a Sugar Cat be fed for optimal BG levels -- we're shooting for no shots again. Only half-way there!

Appreciate your comments,

Kathleen & Fred
Diagnosed 12/24/09
 
Kathleen and Fred said:
So, what do you do with a picky eater?
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You should start a new thread to get responses. There are many ways to get a picky cat to eat, such as sprinkling freeze dried meat treats on top or grated cheese.
 
Kathleen, there are some cats who are more carb sensitive than others...only trial and error will tell you which you have.
The decision to feed dry food is based on so many factors, but if you have a cat who isn't eating enough to be healthy and you want to experiment with dry to keep him eating, then nobody should give you flak for that. Just know all the pros and cons and then do what is best for YOU and YOUR cat. :-D
 
This sounds more than just picky and more potentially like inappetence? If you feel that you might have unexplained inappetence going on then you will want to investigate that.

On the cooked tip: If you are serving cooked meat and it makes more than 10% of their diet then you need to be adding nutrients to it. http://www.knowwhatyoufeed.com is a great resource for this. It sounds like you may be serving some unique ingredients and the owner of that site can work with you to add new ingredients to their incredible calculator tool.
 
Thought I would add my 2 cents in regards to epigen from Wysong I bought it for Do Lou when it first came out back in the summer around the first of July at this time he was on a raw diet (primal nuggests) and NV freeze dried raw to leave out during the day while at work well after reading about this dry with it sounded like Hey maybe I will give it a try a time or 2 and see if I see it affecting his numbers well it did his and I called the company to inquire after its release whether it actually did have any carbs since I find the claim of zero carbs still really hard to grasp but they at that time said we do not have that information its too new :shock: so when I saw Wysong on facebook and telling everyone on there about epigen so I posted my commmetn on carrbs there where they went on to say #
Lisa Kaelin it would be nice if the company could tell you the carb content since I called and they had no idea
July 7 at 11:28am ·
#
Wysong Natural Pet Food Other than meat and organ glycogen and plant fibers, there is no carbohydrate in Epigen™. There are no starch ingredients as in all other dry diets.
July 7 at 2:09pm ·

So I am still kinda unsure myself but I am sure if a diabetic cat refuses wet and you have to feed dry it along with core and evo have to be your better choices JMO anyway I am lucky I was able to get my dry food junkie cat off dry and he really did not even like the epigen we used it for about 3 days I think just to see what it would do since I was just curious
 
It is not just about carbs

Ilkka and Tom said:
Thanks.. we thought someone would explore lo-gluc ways of binding the ingredients.

Ilkka and Tom
Click to expand...


As others have mentioned, it is NOT just about carbs!

Please see my Feline Urinary Tract Health page linked below and look at Opie's pictures. Feeding a water-depleted diet sure does cause a lot of suffering in cats.

Oh...and Opie's vet bill was $4,350. (no....not a typo)
 
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