Dosing Marathon Continues

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Kris & Teasel

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AMPS was 11.6 after upping his dose to 3.0 u last night. I was brave and gave him 2.8 u this morning because I can monitor closely today. Teasel's SS tells me that if I react by lowering a dose too much he lands in pink land and stays there. This is still a period of experimentation but I feel like the "training wheels" are off.
 
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It's good to learn about the doses! I did eventually too...I usually posted what I thought and got feedback, but eventually felt brave enough to make my own decisions. You're doing great! Looks like todays dose brought him to the brink of low numbers...I'm glad you were home to keep an eye on things. How's he acting? Feeling good?
 
Hi Rachel,
Yes, a bit too low for comfort. I think he's been feeling a bit lethargic today. However, it's hot in my place and my other two non-diabetics aren't very lively either. I've been thinking about how I'll proceed if his PMPS is low. Depending on the number, I'll either delay and retest, then decide whether to shoot or not. So many choices ...
 
It's a fine line - being agressive enough to move him toward remission without pushing him too low (today the nadir was okay and getting two shootable preshots daily. Have you stalled tonight so the number might rise?
 
Yes, I stalled about 20 minutes and he was only at 8.6 so I decided not to shoot. I'd like to see a BG at least close to 12 nmol/L before shooting - and even that's on the margin. I didn't think he'd rise by 3+nmol/L in the timeframe where I can reasonably delay feeding and shooting. Your PZ protocol suggests dropping the dose by at least 0.25 u if one PS is too low to shoot. I'll drop his dose to 2.5 (eyeball) or 2.6 u tomorrow morning if it makes sense after seeing AMPS.

I'm saving the 13/11 shooting schedule as a backup for now. I'd like to see if I can find a dose that gives me two shootable PSs and a good nadir on a 12/12 schedule.
 
AMPS was 23.8 and I decided to give him 2.4 u. Reasoning? I reviewed what had happened after his AM no shot on 08/17 when I gave 2.6 u in the PM and again the next AM. The 2.6 u doses after a day of low numbers (and heightened glucose sensitivity?) gave me a too low PMPS on 08/18 and on we went downhill from there. I hope to avoid that by going a bit lower in dose after last night's no shot. I can always move up. Also, a decrease of 0.4 u at an overall original dose of 2.8 u isn't a huge difference.
 
PMPS was 18.5 and he's been high and flat today. He's getting 2.6 u tonight so he doesn't get stuck in pinks. I might have to eyeball 2.5 u tomorrow morning ...
 
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AMPS was 17.4 so I gave 2.6 u. It's difficult to predict his response when I'm close to a good dose. It seems to depend on what's happened a few cycles before - ie., was there a yellow PS? a NS? a high flat day? More data over time should give me better insight into these patterns.
 
Thanks, Carol. I'm new to the FDMB way of doing things but I've been treating Teasel since the end of January. I was doing a weekly BG curve for my vet for months on end, trying to glean what I could from the graphed data and "divine" what was going on with his physiology. I'd string BG graphs side by side to see trends, etc. so I already knew his propensity for bouncing and getting stuck in high numbers. I think all that has helped me.

BTW - I keep meaning to tell you that Murphy has the sweetest face!
 
He's gained back some weight, there's less peeing and his appetite is more normal, less voracious (it's always been good though). It's been hard to judge activity level because we've had a very hot, humid summer and I don't have A/C. All three of my cats have been in sloth mode.
 
Hmmm ... +3 is 18.1. Heading into another high and flat day. I'm wondering what would happen if I stuck to this dose for several cycles? The 0.2 up and then 0.2 or 0.4 back down isn't helping to stabilize things. Mind you, stability isn't Teasel's strong point, except to sit in high numbers. Just thinking out loud ...:confused:
 
I think that would be worth a try. Those odd cycles are confusing but several of the low ones have come with a higher dose on a lower preshot. They have great nadirs but the preshot was too low to shoot. Have you thought any more about 11/13? Another possibility - looking from 2/27 to 2/29 is that the higher dose took 3 days to really impact her numbers, so holding the dose as you are thinking might flatten things out.
 
I think that would be worth a try. Those odd cycles are confusing but several of the low ones have come with a higher dose on a lower preshot. They have great nadirs but the preshot was too low to shoot. Have you thought any more about 11/13? Another possibility - looking from 2/27 to 2/29 is that the higher dose took 3 days to really impact her numbers, so holding the dose as you are thinking might flatten things out.
Thanks, Sue. I assume you mean 08/27 to 08/29? His +6 today is 13.9 so at least he's down. Not an ideal nadir but I'll take it. Might be a hint that I should sustain the 2.6 u.

Haven't ruled out 11/13 dosing and have even been thinking about how to plan feeding times to accommodate a later PM dose for Teasel.
 
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AMPS was 23.4. I've given him 2.6 u again which marks the start of a fourth cycle at this dose. I need to see what this consistent dose does and go from there.
 
It was the sixth cycle when you finally got some lower numbers on 2.8 before. Hope the pattern holds. (Sure would be nice to see A pattern....)
 
PMPS was 19.4 and I'll be giving him 2.6 u tonight (5th cycle at this dose). Let's see what the morning brings. I think if there was a contest for trickiest cat to regulate, Teasel would be a contender for sure! o_O
 
Today's AMPS was 17.2 -not great but better than yesterday. I'm giving him 2.6 u again this morning because I think there's been some bouncing going on the last few days. I want to see if it'll clear.
 
It's a good thing sticking to this dose for now because I do see a bounce indeed and this AMPS Teasel is getting a lower PS number so I might think he's clearing his bounce...
 
Well I guess soooo......???
@Teasel, please don't bounce so much because you're making mommy craaaaazzzzyyyyyy!!! Just be a good kitty and give some nice numbers:rolleyes:
 
I think you are getting there :) he's definitely more stable on the 2.60. Think you may have to encourage those lower numbers slowly - coax them down with a carrot and a stick! ;)
 
I suppose he could take six cycles to settle into a dose. That would be unusual but that is what his spreadsheet seems to suggest?

I agree, Sue. But Teasel waltzes to his own tune in the sugar dance! BG at +5 is 13.8. I'll finish up today with a 2.6 u dose and might try eyeballing 2.7 u tomorrow morning. He appears to have stopped bouncing and I want to keep any increase very small.
 
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Just when we thought we might have had an idea about him. Not sure about that number.
Might just be one wonky number. I'll give him 2.6 u tonight and will continue with that dose tomorrow because I'll be out quite a bit. I don't want to do a dose increase when I'm not here to do several BGs.
 
PMPS is 22.8. Not just one wonky number earlier - big bounce off that string of yellows I think. I'm staying with the dose of 2.6 u as planned.
 
Looking ahead: there's a crazy array of yellow, pink and red blocks on his SS since 08/30 but I think the +6 BG values in that time frame tell me that a dose of 2.6 u is too low - for now. At the same time, he's in a bouncing frame of mind and that complicates the picture. I could try eyeballing 2.7 u or just go with 2.8 u which I can actually measure against a mark on the barrel of a U100 syringe. I'm not sure there's much difference - 2.7u is about a 4% increase, 2.8 u about 8%. The magnitude of the measurement error is large relative to the magnitude of dose increase - ie., relative to 0.1 u or 0.2 u.

As far as eyeballing goes, I've experimented with putting coloured water in a syringe and have found that if I let out a drop large enough to fall on its own due to its weight, that corresponds to a half unit on my U100 syringes. If I let out drops about half that diameter that don't fall off under their own weight, I get two out of a half unit mark on my syringe. None of this takes into account the effect that food colouring might have had on the water's surface tension. Maybe the insulin would have a different effect on surface tension. Maybe differences in the precise shape of an individual syringe's tip could affect how well a drop forms and holds before falling. This is where my science brain takes me ...

All that aside, I think he needs a dose increase starting tomorrow morning. Any thoughts?
 
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There are two theories about bouncing. One is to just shoot through the bounce - that is, shoot the number even though you know it's a bounce. (This wouldn't apply if the low was -50). The other is to reduce the dose after a low the cycle before, when you get a high you know is a bounce. I don't know which works the best - it may depend on the cat. I almost always suggest lowering the dose. The only thing I am sure of is that a cat bounces till they stop.

Not sure how or if that can help. I think the dose increase is a good idea.

How much ProZinc do you have? You might consider trying a depot insulin. He likely will still bounce but you have a clearer protocol that makes dosing easier.
 
Hi Sue. Long history to follow but I'd appreciate your take:

We began the FD journey at the end of January 2016 using Lantus glargine insulin at a dose of 1.0 u BID. At the end of the first week the BG curve showed his BG dropping gradually from about 18 to a nadir of around 6 at +12 but I didn't continue testing in the evening. I knew very little then! We continued at that dose another week and a half and on the next BG curve day he plummeted from 20 down to 4 then back up to 20 in 12 hours. The dose was lowered to 0.5 u BID but a week later the BG curve showed him to be high at around 20 all day. Next experiment was 1.0 u AM and 0.5 u PM for a week. This gave us a gradual drop on BG curve day (end of February) from around 24 to 11 at +12 but no data after that. I thought that he probably needed somewhere between 0.75 u and 0.8 u per dose BID on Lantus but didn't think I could eyeball that very well on a U100 syringe. My vet agreed that measuring would be hard to do. He went back on 1.0 u BID for the month of March and stayed stuck around 20 (according to BG curve data from then). I thought he was in chronic rebound and the vet thought we should try him off all insulin for 24-48 hours and then restart him. He plunged into a DKA episode, spent 3+ very $$$$$ days in the hospital and we decided to try him on Prozinc. He's her only cat on ProZinc and I'm the one who's amassing all the experience.

I've been using ProZinc since the beginning of April 2016. We started at 1.0 u BID and upped doses to 2.6 u BID. I was beginning to understand bouncing (rebounding) and the insulin resistance that sets in when the rebound becomes chronic. I took a break from dose manipulation for a long time because it was driving me nuts. Teasel seemed to be coping. In early August I decided to go back at it, told my vet I wanted to try 3.0 u BID and then finally 3.6 u BID. This got some action going finally but put Teasel in near hypo territory. The vet I work with wasn't in the clinic on 08/17 when I finally joined FDMB because I needed help. His SS tells the rest of the story.

My issues with Lantus: at the time his dose was low and I couldn't see how to fraction it any smaller and have any dose consistency. Also, Lantus is acidic and he seemed to react to its sting even at this tiny dose. This unnerved me a lot because he'd react to his injections. I already have trouble holding a pinch in his skin because of problems with my hands. I didn't need to deal with a jumpy cat! I know Levemir doesn't to that but my vet has zero experience with it - I asked. The plus is that Lantus is much cheaper than ProZinc for me here in Canada. Another worry for me is that if a dose is too high, I have a very long acting insulin to work its way through his system with prolonged hypo danger. The reverse is also true: if it's too low, it can keep him high and so on. He's a cat that gets stuck in high numbers easily if they persist over time.

My take on ProZinc: the negative - a vial is expensive ($127 CAD from my vet) and with large-ish doses, I'll need a new one every 6 weeks or so. The positive: I LOVE that fractional doses are possible with a U100 syringe; it doesn't sting; it's more flexible in timing of dosing; it can be used on a sliding scale if needed. I haven't explored 13/11 scheduling or sliding scale yet because we don't have a reasonable starting point as a dose.

Overall: I can't rule out (maybe) trying Lantus again but I worry about transitioning him back, finding a dose to do that, risking another DKA, etc. I lack data on how the Lantus was really working day to day during the 2 months he was on it. I was doing a BG curve about once a week but measuring BG only every 4 hours, not every 2. I can't make any really good comparisons with ProZinc because of this.I might have a better experience a second time with it. I'm not ready to go there yet.

Just had a brainstorm! I PDFd his BG curve summary chart for you to look at so maybe what I've said above is clearer for you:
 

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That is definitely enlightening, Kris. I know you have told us before but I definitely do forget. I can't open the file. I only have my IPad and it says not downloadable. I had forgotten your experience with Lantus. Yes, Levemir is thought to sting less, but I understand the financial considerations.

I wish his numbers seemed more logical - as I know you do! Usually we can look at past cycles, predict what a dose might do and base future doses on that. If that'd work, then 2.8 units on 209 which gave you the 65 should be a predictor. So your 2.8 on anything in the mid 200s should give you better numbers. We can hope. Fingers crossed.
 
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