dose/change of insulin?

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sun

Member Since 2010
hi, i am again, struggling with the vets, as before...
unsure of what i can do.
siujim has been using lantus for 8 months.
since july, we raise her to 5 unit and also, we fed her also supplements for her pacnreatitis and her BG range lowered to 230-300 from over 400.
siujim is weighted 2.8kg, 17 years old.

recently, she is using homeopath remedies in which she is more stable.
she still vomits but less often, in early morning.

i want to try another type of insulin as she has been on lantus for 8 months. but vet refused.
they even refuse to change the dose.
i am confused.

17th july:
amps 365, +3 347 +6 256, +9 282 pmps 315

18th july amps 316 pmps 333

20th amps 415, pmps 419
** vet suggested to raise to 5 unit from 4.5 unit

21st july
amps 298 +6 183 pmps 221

26th july
amps 272 +3 342 +6 320 +9 297 pmps 306

29july
amps 288 +3 290 +6 228 +9 270 pmps 302 +3 356 +6 328
30th july
amps 290 pmps 378

2nd aug
amps 275 + 6 249 pmps 252

her pre shot no is around 250-290 ( i understand we adjust dose looking at mid day bg not preshot, these are just as references).

however, since 8th aug, her BG goes up again
amps 352 + 6 216 pmps 416

14th aug
amps 329 + 3 351 + 6 257 +9 300 pmps 324

16th aug
amps 280 + 6 239 pmps 293

HER mid-day BG started NOT to go down.
also, vet suggested (since 1 month ago), we fed her after the shot to keep her BG in the first few hrs not to jump too high.
to play safe, i fed her 1/3 food, then 30mins later 2/3 meal. sometimes it works, it prevents her first few hrs BG having a dramatic jump.

18th aug
amps 381 +6 337 pmps 365

19th aug (TODAY)
amps 329 +6 315

what do u folks think?
i hope to try another type of insulin because
1) i did something very wrong, which the vet didn't explain well to me, from last dec to june, i fed her 1-2 hr BEFORE the insulin shot. so her BG were good in the first month, then very high and i missed the chance of remission. i have a feeling that she has built up much resistance to lantus because i didn't give her insulin at the right time. i did the shot when she was at her highest bg (2 hr after food). and it has been that for 6 months. vet didn't figure it out with me... and just said it was strange not to be able to lower hte BG... i only knew it when i asked you folks here in june and i learned the order of bg test/food/shot. i felt very very sad about this. almost like i killed my own baby.
thus, i think perhaps it is good to try another type of insulin, so that she has got some freshness of "taste" of insulin to trigger her to produce/accept insulin on her own.

2) it has been so many months, should i try another type?
or raise further? however, the vet refused to raise because they said her max dose is 6 unit, so unless she loses weight heavily, condition worse, they will not raise the dose even BG is at 300-400. they said to leave room for later use (as only 1 unit more)). for that, do u folks agree? what are your opinions?

thxxx. pls help, i am so very confused.
anson
 
Hi Anson,

I'm sorry I don't have a definitive answer for you, I just wanted to post hello and don't get discouraged, you are doing a great job!

Is your vet on board with Tilly protocol? If you were to follow the protocol that most of us here use, you would increase the dose because siujim isn't seeing many normal BG readings. But I think if you are going to follow the protocol, you have to follow it quite precisely and you need to have the support of your vet. I'm also not quite sure how the homeopathic remedies interact with the insulin...

I hope one of the more experienced voices will be along shortly to give you better dose advice.
 
thx for your support.
yes, the problem is, the vets (i visited two) do not follow the protocol.
so i am very confused...

the remedies help on dealing with the problem of vomiting and pancreatitis.
and of course if her pancreatitis is controlled, then her BG will be lowered.

we are also using supplements (coq10, vit e, sam-e) suggested by the vet to deal with pancreatitis.

thx.

Sara & Magnolia said:
Hi Anson,

I'm sorry I don't have a definitive answer for you, I just wanted to post hello and don't get discouraged, you are doing a great job!

Is your vet on board with Tilly protocol? If you were to follow the protocol that most of us here use, you would increase the dose because siujim isn't seeing many normal BG readings. But I think if you are going to follow the protocol, you have to follow it quite precisely and you need to have the support of your vet. I'm also not quite sure how the homeopathic remedies interact with the insulin...

I hope one of the more experienced voices will be along shortly to give you better dose advice.
 
First, the dose of 6u may be high but if your cat needs more, why would you not increase?

My Shadoe is getting 8u BID, and my Oliver is getting 21.5u BID.
There is a reason for their high doses - they both tested positive for acromegaly and Oliver is also IAA positive.

You could ask your vet about tests for these two conditions.
the links where I had tests done for my two:

IAA Test
IGF-1 (Acro) Test

There have been other cats that have needed higher doses, and some even go OTJ after reaching a high dose. I do not understand to stop at 6u.

Changing insulin may not be any answer because you may just build up a resistance to the other as well. I would think it may be better to try to increase the dose on Lantus and see how you are with getting lower numbers.

For pancreatitis, I gave SQ fluids, and pepcid AC to calm Shadoe's stomach.
 
the vet refuses to raise the dose. this is why i am confused.

i also use fluids, enzyme, vit e, coq10 for the pancreatitis.
using homoepath remedies for the vomiting problem as we can't force feed her anything, very hard to feed her pills.

thx
anson
Gayle and Shadoe said:
First, the dose of 6u may be high but if your cat needs more, why would you not increase?

My Shadoe is getting 8u BID, and my Oliver is getting 21.5u BID.
There is a reason for their high doses - they both tested positive for acromegaly and Oliver is also IAA positive.

You could ask your vet about tests for these two conditions.
the links where I had tests done for my two:

IAA Test
IGF-1 (Acro) Test

There have been other cats that have needed higher doses, and some even go OTJ after reaching a high dose. I do not understand to stop at 6u.

Changing insulin may not be any answer because you may just build up a resistance to the other as well. I would think it may be better to try to increase the dose on Lantus and see how you are with getting lower numbers.

For pancreatitis, I gave SQ fluids, and pepcid AC to calm Shadoe's stomach.
 
If you have the insulin and syringes and are home testing, why don't you raise the dose?
The vet could well be very wrong.
You could try to increase the dose and if you get better numbers, then what can your vet say?

Why don't you try a bit of an increase and see how it goes for 4 shots?
 
thx for your comments.

i checked shadoe spreadsheet. i realize she eats fish?
as she also has pancreatitis, better to quit fish and try novel protein.
it will help a lot on inflammation.

i am trying to feed duck/chicken, rather than tuna/shrimp.

thx.
Gayle and Shadoe said:
First, the dose of 6u may be high but if your cat needs more, why would you not increase?

My Shadoe is getting 8u BID, and my Oliver is getting 21.5u BID.
There is a reason for their high doses - they both tested positive for acromegaly and Oliver is also IAA positive.

You could ask your vet about tests for these two conditions.
the links where I had tests done for my two:

IAA Test
IGF-1 (Acro) Test

There have been other cats that have needed higher doses, and some even go OTJ after reaching a high dose. I do not understand to stop at 6u.

Changing insulin may not be any answer because you may just build up a resistance to the other as well. I would think it may be better to try to increase the dose on Lantus and see how you are with getting lower numbers.

For pancreatitis, I gave SQ fluids, and pepcid AC to calm Shadoe's stomach.
 
i dare not do it as two vets said better no increase and leave room for later.
i think this is a strange idea (to leave room for later use?)

this is why i am writing here for some advises...

thx

Gayle and Shadoe said:
If you have the insulin and syringes and are home testing, why don't you raise the dose?
The vet could well be very wrong.
You could try to increase the dose and if you get better numbers, then what can your vet say?

Why don't you try a bit of an increase and see how it goes for 4 shots?
 
Hi Sun,

my first thoughts reading your story are-
hold off on inbcreasing the insulin, just for a few days.
Can you consistently check kitty's bg before every shot? and at least +6.+1 and +2 would be useful on at least a couple of occasions. We need to see the pattern.your figures don't show consistent checking and you could be missing some important information.

The Pancreatitis may not be helping (though my cat had it, didn't make a huge difference)
Do you know what ingredients are in your homeopathic remedies?
Do you know the carb % of the food you feed?
2.4kg is very very low weight. Do you feed kitty as much as he/she wants?
Do you test for keytones?

Sorry for many questions but it looks like something may be missing.
As for changing insulin, I'd say no just for now, but cautious with your vets advice.
Working up to 5u is a lot and it isn't clear to me how that has happened.
Would you be able to set up a spreadsheet and share all the numbers you have gathered since starting to hometest?
At times kitty has flatlined (numbers not moved) but then on others he/she has, that's why a think a piece of the puzzle may be missing.

What is kitty's behaviour like?
Preening
Playful

regularly uses litter tray
Drinks extra water
Pooping regularly

I'm sure between us we can help you figure this out. Hang in there. :-D
 
she is 2.8kg now. but she is small. so not very thin. her usual weight is 3.1kg
she has been taking steam shrimp + wellness grain-free canned food which are very very low carb.
i checked keytones esp when her BG over 400.
she once had ketones in the very beginning and she was very sick, back in dec.
but no more since jan.
i have a spreadsheet, it's in the signature.
it's been 8 months.

she once was very weak, not moving, ate very little in the beginning.
she was good in dec/jan, but then since feb/march/april, quite unstable.
diagnosed pancreatitis in june.
** pls note remarks on blood tests if you are interested.
we then start the supplements (coq10, vit e, sam-e and fluids esp when she vomits).

she vomits more and more often in july/aug.
and this is why we use kali bich and iris verso. which are working.

thx.
anson

kate and lucky said:
Hi Sun,

my first thoughts reading your story are-
hold off on inbcreasing the insulin, just for a few days.
Can you consistently check kitty's bg before every shot? and at least +6.+1 and +2 would be useful on at least a couple of occasions. We need to see the pattern.your figures don't show consistent checking and you could be missing some important information.

The Pancreatitis may not be helping (though my cat had it, didn't make a huge difference)
Do you know what ingredients are in your homeopathic remedies?
Do you know the carb % of the food you feed?
2.4kg is very very low weight. Do you feed kitty as much as he/she wants?
Do you test for keytones?

Sorry for many questions but it looks like something may be missing.
As for changing insulin, I'd say no just for now, but cautious with your vets advice.
Working up to 5u is a lot and it isn't clear to me how that has happened.
Would you be able to set up a spreadsheet and share all the numbers you have gathered since starting to hometest?
At times kitty has flatlined (numbers not moved) but then on others he/she has, that's why a think a piece of the puzzle may be missing.

What is kitty's behaviour like?
Preening
Playful

regularly uses litter tray
Drinks extra water
Pooping regularly

I'm sure between us we can help you figure this out. Hang in there. :-D
 
Anson apologies on missing the ss.

You put this on 19th:
drinks a lot of water (double the amount), then vomit at 5am. will feed two times kali bich at night (the holistic vet said if vomiting continues can feed two times at night). a bit dry. BG generally higher amps(18.7). +6 (17.5)

A bit dry. Does this mean you gave dry food?

The eating and drinking are signs that she is not regulated. You should let her eat what she wants as her body can not process the food she is getting. I think youre still giving sub-q, that's good.

I think you were wise to stop the k+.All other results look good.If she's asking for food, I'm assuming the pancreatitis flare is over? (cats normally nauseous when have CP flare).

If 3.1kg normal, then her weight isn't too bad (if you see her spine and ribs, then she's way under weight)
8 months isn't long, you may just have not found the ideal dose yet. FD is a marathon not a race and it can take quite some time to find the right dose for your cat.
It would be better if you could test bg with the glucometer, rather than urine somtimes, hard to see if there is a pattern.Getting those +6's and preshots are important. Maybe the occasional +1 and 2 would be good also.

If the homeopathic stuff is working, carry on. May be something to do with the time of year (no experience of such a s8ituation my self)

I wopuld be careful giving anything fish food like too oftenm. Don't really recommend more than once a week because of the build up of mercury primarily.

I would still persevere with the Lantus a little longer.
 
thx for your time and concern.

"a bit dry" means dehydration. usually if she vomits, i will give sub-q.
no more dry food since last dec as dry food as high carb content.

will do full day bg curve tomorrow. and talk to vet further.
i want to raise the dose...

thx again
anson

kate and lucky said:
Anson apologies on missing the ss.

You put this on 19th:
drinks a lot of water (double the amount), then vomit at 5am. will feed two times kali bich at night (the holistic vet said if vomiting continues can feed two times at night). a bit dry. BG generally higher amps(18.7). +6 (17.5)

A bit dry. Does this mean you gave dry food?

The eating and drinking are signs that she is not regulated. You should let her eat what she wants as her body can not process the food she is getting. I think youre still giving sub-q, that's good.

I think you were wise to stop the k+.All other results look good.If she's asking for food, I'm assuming the pancreatitis flare is over? (cats normally nauseous when have CP flare).

If 3.1kg normal, then her weight isn't too bad (if you see her spine and ribs, then she's way under weight)
8 months isn't long, you may just have not found the ideal dose yet. FD is a marathon not a race and it can take quite some time to find the right dose for your cat.
It would be better if you could test bg with the glucometer, rather than urine somtimes, hard to see if there is a pattern.Getting those +6's and preshots are important. Maybe the occasional +1 and 2 would be good also.

If the homeopathic stuff is working, carry on. May be something to do with the time of year (no experience of such a s8ituation my self)

I wopuld be careful giving anything fish food like too oftenm. Don't really recommend more than once a week because of the build up of mercury primarily.

I would still persevere with the Lantus a little longer.
 
FYI: The first vet we saw absolutely refused to accept that this protocol could work and didn't support me changing the dosage on my own. She also advised me to skip shots and only test BGs once a week. She was happy with BGs in the 300s. Sometimes, vets are not as knowledgeable about FD as they are about other things. You may need a new vet. I called around to vet offices before I made an appointment, I explained the protocol and asked if the vet knew about it/would support my using it and eventually I found a great vet willing to work with me.

The advice you are getting here follows a very precise protocol, if your vet doesn't support that protocol, it's unlikely you will get him/her to agree with the suggestions here. It may not be the best idea to only follow part of the protocol.

I also found that some vets get insulted when you suggest that you (or some internet forum) could know more than they do.

Good luck!
 
yes, i understand. but in hong kong, there is no vet following the protocol. and they said just test once every 2 weeks.
what i did now testing every 3-4 days are something they think is over-monitoring and does harm to the cats...

sigh.
it's very hard...

thx for your comment and care,
anson

Sara & Magnolia said:
FYI: The first vet we saw absolutely refused to accept that this protocol could work and didn't support me changing the dosage on my own. She also advised me to skip shots and only test BGs once a week. She was happy with BGs in the 300s. Sometimes, vets are not as knowledgeable about FD as they are about other things. You may need a new vet. I called around to vet offices before I made an appointment, I explained the protocol and asked if the vet knew about it/would support my using it and eventually I found a great vet willing to work with me.

The advice you are getting here follows a very precise protocol, if your vet doesn't support that protocol, it's unlikely you will get him/her to agree with the suggestions here. It may not be the best idea to only follow part of the protocol.

I also found that some vets get insulted when you suggest that you (or some internet forum) could know more than they do.

Good luck!
 
OK my question is this:
Why do you tell the vet how frequently you test the cat? If you are purchasing your own testing supplies and testing in your own home, just don't bother telling the vet. Just test and record the numbers on your spreadsheet, then you can show your vet later how well you are doing.

Seriously, testing is done 5 to 6 times a day for human diabetics, so are cats not as important? Are humans harmed by testing before giving themselves insulin shots? No. So how can you be harming your cat? My Oliver sleeps through my poking his ears! I would think if he was feeling harmed, the least he would do would be to wake up!

Most definitely a test is important before every shot, or how else will you know if your cat has a BG that is too low and you should skip the shot or give less? Also, testing around mid-cycle is the way that you can tell what nadir is, and that value is needed to know how the insulin is working and if you need to adjust the dose.

Many people here follow the protocol and it does not matter if their vets agree or not.
The proof in this protocol can be seen in the dozens and dozens of cats who no longer need insulin.

I think if you are testing and the numbers are not improving, then you should consider increasing the dose, even just for a few days to see if the numbers improve.
 
Yes! What Gayle said! I guess it's good to have the support of your vet, but if you don't, why not follow the protocol on your own? The only way your vet would have to get involved is in refilling the Lantus prescription.

But if you go on your own, without the vet, you would really have to stick to the protocol, do A LOT of testing at home and definitely use the wisdom available to you in this forum.
 
Our vet has no idea that we've decreased on our own over time. She still thinks we're at 2u (Johnny's down to one drop every few days). :roll: There's been no follow up. They never mentioned home-testing. They wanted to keep Johnny for a curve (something I could do on my own and with less stress, so more accurate numbers). They started him out on too high of a dose. I could go on and on. It took about a week until I transferred my trust to the people here. Suddenly, I felt much more in control and comfortable with the process...and saw great results. As long as I have the tools (insulin, syringes), it's my decision how to use them. My plan is to e-mail the SS to our vet if he gets OTJ and tell them that I'd be happy for them to give out my info to any parents of diabetic kitties. Not because I'm an expert, but because I know where to guide them. Here! :smile:

You seem to be in close contact with your vet. Who is initiating all the follow up? You or the vet?

Glad you're here!
 
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