Dose @24 hr, not BID

@Nan & Amber (GA), @jt and trouble (GA). @Marje and Gracie, @tiffmaxee,
Hello all,
I am at Momo’s vet now and I mentioned about the pricking and testing her BG. She said she is against that I always poke her ears. And I also mentioned that her insulin last sometimes varies, sometimes @+16-19. So she said just give every 24 hour instead. I told her I now reduced and just give her .75u.
She took a urine straight from her bladder and told me the urine is very dilute, and she is NOT dehydrated. She was saying her BUN is so high- very high protein
Any suggestion?
thanks

 

Sorry I missed you yesterday but I saw her USG is 1.028. I don’t know when that sample was done but if it was done first thing in the morning, that is dilute. A cat who is capable of concentrating their urine should have a USG above 1.040. Is Momo peeing a lot? A lower USG like 1.028 can indicate an infection so I’m glad your vet is doing a culture and sensitivity on a sterile sample. It can also be an indication of very early CKD; however, “typically” the SDMA is supposed to identify that even before the USG. But there are no guarantees....

I really don’t understand why you are not shooting insulin on time for every BG above 68 (since you are using an AT). You have enough data to do so. I would not shoot once every 24 hours. That is not how this insulin works in cats. I would suggest you post in the Lantus, Basalgar, Levemir ISG in this forum to get additional assistance with Lantus. If you get a BG above 68 that you aren’t co for table shooting on your own, stall without feeding, and post in the LBL group for help. Be sure to include in the subject title “stalling, need help”.

 

I saw the dilute urine as well and the BUN but tube SDMA and creatinine were normal. As Marje suggested perhaps a UTI?

 

@Marje and Gracie, @tiffmaxee, @jt and trouble (GA),

She always pees a lot and sounds like a faucet.. but today.. I noticed she went to her litter (2x), but nothing came out. Not sure what it means.
Her regular Vet asked me how I got the other urine- I told her, from her litter. I cleaned the box, put few litter only at the center, so when she pees- I was able to take those that went on the sides. Unfortunately- Momo mixed a lot of litter with that urine, that is why very cloudy. Her vet told me, that must be the reason it has bacteria. She did repeat today using syringe directly from Momo to see what was going on.
She wanted to repeat the blood test, but it does not make any sense- it is only a day old, so she did not.
- - I am a little scared to shoot her when she has low numbers in the normal range of a cat (68-120). I don’t know, I am just always scared.. Maybe, because the other forum I joined before kept telling me if 150 and less do not shoot.
Maybe, I need to Have a little courage, this time- knowing she always rise anyway afterwards..
- - I don’t know now what to do, if she has CKD. In 6/6- she was normal- then after 2 months she already has CKD...
- - she mentioned Momo’s urine is very dilute (maybe It means bad). But- I think the reason it is dilute- I put too much water on her foods. She always licks them first, then I put more liquid again, then she licks them more. It was always like this- but not sure if that really the reason...
- - I feel Now like a melting candle, with no more strength...
Giving her better foods and canned foods raised the values of her BUN, and creatinine.
- - I am just totally numb, so confused, so lost.
But still hoping and praying- she has no CKD...

Thank you to everyone whose been helping me here...

 

I thought the bacteria was there from the free catch as well. See what the vet finds. Shooting between 68-120 is at first. That’s why we suggested you shoot .75 but you went back to 1 u it? Why?

 

@tiffmaxee - yeah, she is at .75 now.
Sorry what you mean by free catch?

 

Free catch is when you bring the urine to the vet. There will be bacteria because it’s not sterile. That’s why your vet got more.

 

No, that has nothing to do with it. Water is actually very good for the entire urinary tract system. Now if you were pumping her full of fluids every day it might be a cause for diluted urine but you're not giving sub-q or IV fluids.

 

You cannot give too much water. Your cat will tell you when its too much (they simply wont eat the food with too much water)
Len study your spread sheet. The amount of days you were at a dose, the times you did tests. I'm not a dosing expert by any means but holding a dose with past history numbers should guide you AND help our advisers give you peace of mind. Its going to be ok.

 

Adding water to the food is actually better than sub-q fluids provided she stays well hydrated as she won’t get the extra sodium in the fluids. When they can’t stay hydrated with drinking is when we need to start fluids.

 

Hmmm that leads me to ask...there IS sodium in tap water. Would switching to bottled water be a bad thing?

 

I do use purified water for my cats. My neighbor uses distilled but I think that might not be good for the teeth??? I don’t like the fluoride in our tap water and it’s hard to know if added to even bottled. My sister switched water with her puppy and his eyes were showing tear signs more she went back to the purified water and it corrected.

 

We use bottled water for everything. Our water is VERY hard. I even cook with bottled water.

ETA: Amazing about your sisters dog! wow

 

In

@tiffmaxee, @jt and trouble (GA), @Marje and Gracie, @Nan & Amber (GA),

Hello. I used purified water, we have a Drinkpod with 4 stages of purification.
I got the result of her urine culture and her USG is low- 1.018. Everything else is normal (No Protein, No Glucose, No Blood).
Her vet told me it is very dilute because she is drinking a lot of water. And that urine was taken already late in the afternoon- she already had eaten and drink plenty of water that time- (not the first thing in the morning).
She believes her kidney is normal and has no issues.
She wants to re do the blood test in a month and suggested to give her low protein diet (because her BUN) is high.
What foods should I feed for low protein? I ask if I should get the renal food diets- and she said no.
Any suggestions?
thank you all.

 

Low protein diets for CKD are "old school"....the latest research shows that restricting protein in earlier stages of kidney disease just leads to muscle wasting. Instead of restricting protein, you want good quality protein. Adding egg whites (cooked) is a good low carb protein booster.

Since her SDMA and her creatinine were within normal limits, I wouldn't worry too much about CKD. The BUN can be high due to a high protein diet as well as being dehydrated (among other things).

The renal diets are very high in carbs...they're the last thing you'd want to feed to a diabetic cat.

If the sample was in the late afternoon, it could have been that dilute just because she'd recently pee'd. If she'd gone to the litterbox a little while before going to the vet for the cysto, that could be why it was so dilute. That's why getting a first urine in the morning is important for testing the USG. (kind of like why woman used to be told to test the first urine in the morning for pregnancy ...when the hormones that indicate pregnancy are at their peak....the newer tests are more sensitive though)

 

@Chris & China (GA), @tiffmaxee, @Marje and Gracie, @Nan & Amber (GA), @jt and trouble (GA),
Hi there,
The sample was in the afternoon, and she already drink and ate a lot, and pee...Yeah-- The VET is in her late 50's or early 60's, and she just e-mailed me when I question her. She said- that to lessen the workload of her kidney (less chicken), pumpkin is good, and mix with kibble? She knows replacing the protein with carbs will affect her glucose - but she suggested to mix the chicken with kibble? IS THAT A GOOD IDEA??

--- UPDATE ----
--- for couple of days, I have been putting a 1/2 teaspoon of pumpkin to her foods (once a day), and her stool is good - not very dry anymore, a little soft... and so far - I did not see her sugar was affected at all..
--- she did not like the taste of her Nordic omega 3 and Vit E, but I just kept on putting a little bit more Fortiflora, and she still licked them though.
---I got the EZ -mix and Alnutrin - but the directions says it needs to be mixed while the meat were raws.. so I will do another batch tomorrow to properly mix it, since all her meats were cooked already..

Thank you all for guidance, and continuously supporting everyone here, and giving your most precious time in explaining this to most of us.

Love always,
Len & Momo Go

 

Len, I don't know enough about these other issues to offer advice, but I just wanted to say, you're doing a fantastic job with Momo! She is very lucky to have you as caregiver.

 

With pumpkin you can give a little less f tge stool gets soft, maybe every other day, OT more if to dry. You would only use either alnutrin or EZ Cmplete. I would try EZ. when you make yiur next batch. I add the omega to their food. You just need .5 so in food it shouldn’t be noticed. .

 

@tiffmaxee, @Nan & Amber (GA),

Thank you all... I have been researching the internet and I came across with Darwin Intelligent Design.. They said for those with Kidney problems (though Momo does not have, but I am avoiding for her to progress), and I also did not want to buy that as I heard a lot of recalls from Darwin.

_ I also came across since last week this Petropolis website ( I put it here, in case she is excellent, others with their own will- maybe able to get in touch with her) - she is a holistic nutritionist, can give advice and can tailor the diet. She will even review the recent lab test to tailor the diet. She has different pricing from $99-$300, which is not that bad. "Please do not blame me, as I am not forcing anyone here to do it -- I am only sharing what I found, which maybe helpful also to others who need help.
I will call her today and see how it goes. One of the reviews she got was from a pet owner with cats with Hyperthyroidism and she gave her an excellent reviews on how she was able to help her.
--I hope she can help Momo.

---Also just to share you to story about this on call vet that took Momo's blood test and urinalysis, -- I regret I even have this "on call vet to take Momo"s blood test and charged me $600, including urinalysis). When I saw the urinalysis has bacteria in her urine, I asked this VET what was next - she said "urine culture" and I googled how to do that - wherein a needle will be put in her urethra to her bladder. So I asked that "on call vet" when is she going to come (2x), and instead of replying to me - she kept insisting to do a "fructosamine test'. That's how I realized she is not "experience at all". After realizing that, I WILL NEVER TRUST HER TO take urine culture from MOMO, no way! and that's how I brought Momo back to her original Vet. The reason I asked this "on call vet" is to lessen Momo's stress - because she had the heavy fast respiratory rate before . This on call Vet did not even analyze the blood test to me - you guys helped me analyze it. I now think she maybe not a licensed vet, because when I asked if she can give me a prescription for Momo's Lantus - she told me " when do I needed it. I said in 3 weeks. Then, she told me - we will talk in 3 weeks then.? Huh??
She was recommended to me by my co-worker (she only does vaccination to my co-worker's dog)

--- I shared this to also warn those who maybe encountered situations like this.. I am new to all of this, so I am still learning... Thank you all..

 

I looked at that site. I don’t see any credentials. I don’t think these are vets but rather they sell food. We had a holistic man here with two stores. He was basically practicing vet med without a license. My sister had suggested I consult with him for my cats with skin allergies. I looked at his site and said no way. Well recently there was an article in the newspaper about him and vets becoming very alarmed as this man had people treating their cancer patients by diet alone with dire consequences. Be very careful. You have two good products to use right now.

 

LEN My Zoe has early stages of kidney failure. Like you, I want to be PRO active. BUT I have learned here, that being TOO proactive can be just as dangerous as the disease itself. I too am searching for that "in between" help so as to slow the disease. Right now its as simple as adding water to her food WHICH ZOE HATES. You are already doing that. I think we both have to wait for that next "visit' to see how this disease has progressed.
(ANYONE IF MY THINKING IS WRONG HEADED PLEASE CORRECT ME)
jeanne

 

@jt and trouble (GA) I agree! I would watch her for any changes I observe and get labs in a few months if she seems stable, sooner if not.

 

@tiffmaxee, @jt and trouble (GA),

Hello Jeanne,

That is exactly I am feeling now... Afraid to what is next, that's why I am very persistent to do the best I can do to slow it down--- if possible, before it progress..
I actually also eyeing at this other nutritionist which has a PHD in veterinary, may be a better choice?

www.petnutritionconsulting.com

Any suggestion ---

Thanks,

Len & Momo

 

Hi Len
Personally I am not a fan of telephone diagnosis. Not to disparage ANY vet but...as soon as I find the right vet (and when money is available) I will take Zoe in for more tests. Right now I'm just trying not to make things worse. Zoe has NEVER been a water drinker.When I add it to her food well? she doesnt eat.
I am currently trying to get her to eat her Weruva. And not necessarily all low Phos. Since all of their choices seem to be Phos wary. I'm just trying to get her use to it. I do have to sprinkle fortiflora on even this food. This morning she ate almost a WHOLE can of weruva. THATS A FIRST!

 

Hello @jt and trouble (GA),

You buy canned foods? You are not doing home made food for Zoe? How old is she? I am glad she ate the can of Weruva - yeah that's what I noticed with Momo, she loves the FF. I sprinkled - then she licked the whole water, then she stopped eating, I put more water and sprinkled little FF, she licked again - then finally eat the chicken. She hates the taste of Omega 3 - so I need to put extra FF and pumpkin (she likes the pumpkin though). Thank you to all of you - without you guys guiding me, I have no idea pumpkin has beneficial effects to cat.
Funny - I am scared FF is salty and might have sodium (I actually tasted a little this morning and spit - hahaha... not salty but I don't know what taste is that? My kids and my husband would laugh at me once they find out (secret... hahaha)..

When was the last time you had a blood test for Zoe? Can I ask?

Thanks,

Len

 

Its a little complicated. We live in the low desert. We dont have AC. We have evaporative cooling (swamp cooler) The temps in this house most of the year is around 90 degrees. I do not trust raw food in these temps. Right now I have her dish in a pan full of water (to keep ants away) I add ice to the pan but it melts quickly. It barely keeps her canned food cool. using raw would be a petri of problems. Weruva I have found is a good choice for low phos food... so far anyway.

Zoe is around 11 years old. Her last vet visit was 2 years ago. (since I retired, money is a huge determination) but that is why I'm trying to do preventive measures...
LOL dont feel alone I have tasted her food before. ( I think there is a lot of closet tasters out there)
I do smell each can because that is what our cats use, their cute little noses.

 

@Nan & Amber (GA),

Thank you so much.. I think we all did and still trying our best... wish I had known before... but we can just move forward..

Take care

 

I would not feed a low protein diet. I didn’t feed my cats who had CKD a low protein diet and they did great. This lab is one snapshot in time. If Momo is drinking a lot of water, her USG from a sample done late in the day will be lower but that’s fairly low. Next time around, I’d do very first pee in the morning.

 

@Marje and Gracie, @tiffmaxee, @Nan & Amber (GA), @jt and trouble (GA),

thank you to everyone. I am so sorry- I was not able to reply right away, and did not get a chance to update Momo’s SS. About 3 cycles ago, her numbers been good. Like in 90’s - 120’s. I reduced her again and now just .50u every 12 hours.
The only thing I added to her foods (aside from her supplements) is the PUMPKIN. I totally stopped Stella & Chewy because it has additional Di calcium phosphate (which is bad). @tiffmaxee is right on this.
I wonder if you guys notice that our fur baby’s BG’s number get lower when they eat pumpkins? I noticed this to my MM? Is this true or I am just dreaming?
Thanks a lot..

 

I’m glad she’s doing well. I doubt it’s the pumpkin lowering her bg. I think it’s likely shooting every 12 hours and a depot filling.

 

I agree with tiffmaxee on the pumpkin.

 

Agree!

 

@tiffmaxee, @Marje and Gracie, @Nan & Amber (GA), @jt and trouble (GA)m

Hello everyone,

Momo’s BG has been good, thank God and to you all- and since it is always good, I got lazy to update her ss (sorry). Last night she was 88(+12). My husband was again so opposed to give her a dose. You guys gave me courage ( those words you guys told me “ you have all the data why you are scared”_ wow, those words inspired me. So I dosed her and I gave her now only less than .50, It is shy of .50( so maybe about .40 only) . This afternoon, her +12 (127).
My concern now is her protein intake- how many oz of protein do you give your cat each day? Per @Marje and Gracie, do not limit the protein intake. It has to be with fats and little carbs? To equal =100%. right ?
=== also, Momo did not want to eat her foods with alnutrin. She rather be hungry than Eat the foods mixed with Alnutrin, any suggestions what supplement should I give her? I gave her back the foods with no alnutrin and she was so hungry and ate them right away, mixed again with taurine, B12, Vit E and fish oil.
Any suggestion what food supplements should I give her? Thanks

 

Did you ever try the EZ Complete that I think you bought?

 

I have to say...I've never given supplements. I guess I just trust all the things my cat needs are already added to her, Fancy Feast, her Weruva, and her Merrick foods.

 

Oh because you give can foods.

 

actually not yet, I think it would just be the same. I will do it tonight for her tomorrow’s meal.
- did @Marje and Gracie use any? And how
Much protein (homemade) you give your cat a day? Thanks. How many grams or oz?
Take care

 

I know many using EZ and animals are eating. Try it.
@jt and trouble (GA) When make your own food you need a supplement or it’s not 100% nutritionally complete.

 

I’ve never made my own food. I wish I could with my two but one has two different skin allergies and can’t eat chicken. EZ contains egg and chicken liver. I’m pretty sure she had a react to dried egg yoke too.

 

Yes Ma'mam I know. I WOULD make her food but I dont trust it in this heat. Without AC it gets too hot in here.