Doodle AMPS 315 +9.5/152 PMPS 175 +5/248

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JenniferF

Member Since 2014
last condo http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=129185

we did see some good blues and even green the past few days. I'm guessing the 300's are from skipping the shots the night before? I hate to do that but just was not comfortable with the low 94 and then him going down the next night. Would I have been safe to give him a reduced dose last night (BG 130 down from 150) or should I have tested a third time? I just didn't want to wait to long either because right now the late night shooting is not easy to handle.
 
Re: Doodle AMPS 315

Shooting a dropping number does get tricky, it is usually the one time I will skip shots. Looking at your spread, it looks like the skip shots hit pretty hard on the next morning AMPS though, so I'd probably look to try to give something. You always have 2 options if you want to give insulin but are in a situation where giving the full dose is difficult - delay, or give a reduced dose.
If you are in a position to delay and give a full dose and still be able to give the next dose 12 hours later, then delaying works well. If you can't delay because scheduling doesn't allow you to carry over that delay, then you can look at a reduced dose. It looks like you gave a 0.5U dose on a 129 on 11/27 and that held Doodle flat in the blues into the AM shot. If it were me, instead of skipping completely I would probably lean towards trying that kind of reduced dose as long as I could catch some tests during the night to monitor and make sure he didn't continue with the drop. Hopefully that could help flatten things out so you would be able to get back to shooting full doses consistently.
It looks like this dose is producing some results in Doodle :smile: Just need to get him to settle down into it a little bit.
 
Could I have given a reduced dose with the dropping number? He went from 150 to 130 which still is a number I have shot before. I probably could delayed a bit too. I have to admit sometimes at shot time and I get a curve ball (like a really low BG or dropping #) I get into panic mode and everything that I have been told here just leaves my brain and I just freak out and get so nervous as to what to do. That is one thing I am trying to work on and remain calm at shot time. I would much rather give a reduced dose than skip so as long as the # is not terribly low I will consider that. I'm not sure how much you have followed him but a while back when he was doing VERY well I had given him a shot when he was pretty low and he got down to 36 ( I think. 30 something) and then wouldn't eat, and was throwing up, etc. I REALLY don't want to go through that again if I can prevent it so that is my hesitance with shooting sometimes now.
 
One thing to note, Jenn, is when I looked back at your ss for that incident with the 36, Doodle was becoming sick with something and the next day he started taking metronidazole and clavamox (i think.) That would be different than the ordinary "shooting low" experience.

If you get brain freeze when you're ready to shoot and not sure what to do, take a look at the "Shooting and Handling low numbers" sticky. You basically have 3 options.

You can stall without feeding and wait for the numbers to start rising, then shoot as soon as it begins upward.
You can shoot a reduced dose.
You can skip the shot.

well, really you have 4 options, because you also have the option of shooting the full dose.

In that sticky, Libby notes that most everything over 50ish can be shot at +12. Often those options above are really for the person's benefit, rather than for the cat. If you can't monitor, for example, or don't have strips, or your cat is sick/not eating, you're going to be smart to choose a more conservative option. But if you're up for monitoring and you have supplies, as long as Doodle is eating ok and seems healthy, you might want to go for it.

Even though he went from 150 to 130, while yes, that's a dropping number, it isn't low. It isn't even in normal numbers (50-120) yet. As long as you were going to be able to monitor and had supplies, you'd likely have been fine to shoot it. If you were too nervous to shoot the full dose, a reduced dose might've prevented the ugly pink amps after the skipped shot.

It would be a good idea to re-read that sticky about low preshot numbers now, when you're not in a spot where you have to make an immediate decision and decide now what you want to do when the next lower preshot number shows up. Once a cat gets one, they are likely to get another one before too long. :mrgreen: I don't know if this would be helpful to you because you already have a lot of experience, but i did bookmark a recent post with some spreadsheets to look at with an explanation about shooting normal numbers.

Here is the part from the sticky about low preshot numbers:
HOW TO DEAL WITH LOW PRESHOT NUMBERS

**** The following guidelines apply to the Tight Regulation Protocol for Lantus or Levemir ****


You just tested your cat’s preshot number, and there is a much lower than usual number staring back at you. What do you do?

There is no one-size-fits all answer, but there are some general guidelines. As with everything else, each cat is different (ECID) and each caregiver is different too.

The short answer is that most kitties can be shot at +12, almost regardless of the number, once you are data ready to do so. The exception is that shooting 30s or 40s is not recommended for most cats, so if the cat is less than 50 then usually the best option is to wait until they are above 50 to shoot. While you’re waiting, the shed is draining, so you want to get the insulin in as soon as it makes sense to shoot.

If it is your first time shooting green, then we will likely suggest that you stall the first time, even if the number is 80-100. That will let you collect data on what your cat will do when you stall. One thing you can do if you are having a low cycle is to get a +10 and +11. Those will give you a good idea of how quickly the cat’s numbers are rising (or not) when preshot time arrives.

Beyond the general guidelines, there are other factors we consider when we are helping someone with a low preshot.
If the low preshot is not part of that cat’s normal pattern or there is reason to think something might be wrong, we will be more conservative.
If the cat is not a food spiker or tends to have an early onset/early nadir then they may not want to shoot as low. If the cat has a late nadir, then they will HAVE to learn to shoot low.
We will also be more conservative in some cases because of the person – if you are not able to monitor then you want to be more careful, or if you are not sure that you can get back to the board to keep us updated throughout the cycle. Trust me, if you shoot low, we will be watching for your updates and we will worry if we don’t see them.
We have to be a lot more careful with the cats who eat only dry food, because they don’t have access to the tools the rest of us use to keep our cats safe.
Also, when it comes to very low preshots, there is an unwritten rule that whoever helps that person shoot low should expect to sit with them through any low parts of the cycle. There have been times when I knew a cat’s number was likely shootable, but I also knew that I could not be around to help if the shot resulted in low numbers later in the cycle. For safety’s sake, if I could not find someone else who would be available to support for the next several hours, I would most likely suggest that the shot be reduced or skipped. I will not encourage someone to shoot low and then abandon them.
There are a lot of other scenarios, and you always want to keep your cat in mind.

Some general rules when stalling (ECID):

** 50s or higher – don’t feed. The number will bump up on its own soon due to the insulin wearing off.
** 40s or lower – you have a couple of choices.

When 40’s occur at the end of the cycle, it can be beneficial to withhold food and test in 15-20 minutes to determine if kitty is on the rise or hasn’t reached nadir yet.
If they are hanging in the 40s for a while, or if they are still dropping, it is ok to feed a tsp or two of LC and retest. This is very tricky. You want to avoid feeding too much while you’re waiting for them to go over 50, because you don’t want to artificially inflate the number with food.
--- Example: if kitty is 43 and you feed a whole meal, or feed some HC, and the number bumps up to 52, is that the cat’s natural end-of-cycle rise, or is it food spike? What if it is food spike? Then if you shoot the 52, when the food wears off he might drop back to the 40’s (and when insulin kicks in a couple of hours later, you might have a problem). If the 52 is the cat’s natural rise, then he will probably keep rising for the next few hours until insulin kicks in. If you can’t tell whether the number is food spike or natural rise, it’s safest to wait. Your data will help you here. Study the spreadsheet. How much food spike does the cat usually get? How many hours after the shot does the insulin’s onset usually occur in this cat? At what number is the cat likely to be when onset occurs? If the cat does drop, how easy/hard is it to regain control of the numbers? How carb sensitive is he?

** Test often (every 15-20 minutes, or at most every 30 minutes). You want to catch the rise the minute it starts. With most of our cats, once they start to rise they will really zoom. You want to get the insulin in as soon as possible, because it will be another 2-3 hours before the insulin kicks in and you don’t want to let the cycle get too far ahead of you.

Perhaps the most important guideline in shooting low is that any time you shoot your lowest ever number, you should get a +1 and +2 to give you an idea of how the cycle will go. If the +1 is not higher than PS, or if +2 is much lower than PS, that means “pay attention” over the next few hours. Those tests will also help you become even more data ready for the next time you are presented with a low preshot reading.

Using the overlap by shooting low is a great way to take advantage of Lantus/Levemir’s long, flat cycles, once you have learned to do so safely.

~ written by Libby and Lucy
 
It's amazing the things that I forget! I have a 3 ring binder with a bunch of the "sticky's" printed out. I did that 1-so that I can read them when before I got into panic mode and 2- in the event my computer was not on I could just go to the binder. Now I just need to remember what's in the binder and that the binder is here (it's actually covered in cats so I should remember, lol)

One of my bad habits is that I am not on this site very much to just look around. I did back when I first started but at times it became over whelming because there is just so much to know. So although I'm sure it's annoying, I do appreciate that others here are willing to repeat themselves. Even back in my school days I used to learn everything by repetition.

I did know the 3 (rather 4 options) and now after reading what you wrote/pasted I think what I was really wanting to know was if I give a reduced dose what is the reduced amount? Is it based on the BG reading?
 
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