Do I give a shot?

Babbs and Bubbles

Babbs and Bubbles

Member
you can take a peek of Bubbs spreadsheet and advice me on if I should give him a shot? He’s usually in the 300’s and he is at 139/7.7. His normal dose is 1.5 units, I just gave him his night time wet food and will leave his 1/8 cup kibble out
 
Hi and welcome! I'm sorry no one was around last night when you posted. We would be happy to help you work on dosing, and answer any questions you have. Is your cat newly diagnosed? Is 1.5u the starting dose from the vet?
 
I wasn’t able to test overnight as I was away over night, he got his shot and food quite late today tho. I’ve been testing a bit throughout the day.

My cat isn’t newly diagnosed but I am new to switching to wet food in order to try and get a better handle on his illness. I am new to FDMB. His dose used to be like 3 units once a day at my old vet, but I’ve recently moved to a new city and got a new vet, they were unhappy with his old regiment so I’m sort of starting over. Right now his dose is set at 1.5 units.

My question today is due to his late first dose I’m uncertain if I should dose him now with his second feeding..? You can refer to his spreadsheet!
 
It would seem that most of the people are off the board when you are asking your questions.
My cat was on Prozinc for only three months and I am a new member so I don't give dosing advice.
I can tell you that most members will need much more information in order to safely help you.
You didn't state your dosing schedule or how late his last shot was given.
We add all the important information that is needed to our signatures.
Look at my signature beside Bear's SS.

The yellow sticky notes which are at the top once you click on the prozinc forum are important to read and become familiar with.

Here is a copy of some of the information from the Beginner's Guide that applies to your question: Please Read This.
When in doubt, ask the Forum or your vet for advice BEFORE dosing your cat.
  • The proper sequence for dosing insulin is: Test/Feed/Shoot. In the beginning, if your cat’s BG is not up to at least 200 mg/dL {11 mmol/L}, if your schedule allows, you can stall (without feeding) for 20+minutes, then retest the BG. You are looking for a number that is rising, not falling and up to 200 mg/dL {11 mmol/L}. If you stall once, but can’t do another round of stalling and your cat hasn’t reached a BG of 200 mg/dL {11 mmol/L}, you’ll need to skip the dose and wait until the next cycle. NOTE: Because pet-specific meters (such as the AlphaTrak2) often read higher than human meters, you may want to adjust the NO-SHOOT number to 225 mg/dL {12.5 mmol/L} or even 250 mg/dL {14 mmol/L} This gives you an added margin of safety when using an AlphaTrak2 or other pet-specific meter.
  • IMPORTANT NOTE: Do not feed your cat within the two-hour window right before the scheduled dose time; doing this can raise your cat’s blood significantly, giving you a higher BG number based on food. This could result in your giving insulin when you should not, or giving more insulin than you should.
  • FDMB has general BG references for use with human meters: A cat is considered regulated if BG is in the mid-200s mg/dL {mid-11s mmol/L} for pre-shot and in low 100s mg/dL {low 5.6s mmol/L} or double digits (U.S. mg/dL) for nadir. (BUT notbelow 50 mg/dL {2.8 mmol/L} which is approaching hypoglycemia range, which is too-low blood glucose - we commonly call this “hypo.”) If you are using an Alpha Trak2 (pet meter) your hypo range starts at 69 mg/dL {3.8 mmol/L} and below. Again: You may want to consider raising your No-Shoot number to as much as 250 mg/dL {14 mmol/L} in the beginning of this sugar dance when using a pet-specific meter. That’s your and your vet’s decision.
  • If you need help with a hypo, post right away on the PZI forum and on the Health forum with the title: 911 HYPO - Need Help ASAP to get the maximum guidance to help you steer your cat back to safer levels. If hypo symptoms are severe (seizure/loss of consciousness, etc.) go to the nearest ER vet clinic immediately.
Essential Hypo Reading:Hypo toolkit link and HOW TO TREAT A HYPO
  • Hot Tip: Print BOTH of the above documents out; the first is a great shopping list - and we strongly suggest you post “How To Treat A Hypo” in a prominent place (like your refrigerator door).
Ask for help on the forum before giving a shot if you are unsure, as you can never “un-shoot” a dose. When asking for dosing or hypo advice, make sure you indicate:
  • which type of meter you are using;
  • if your cat is on any other drugs and/or has health problems;
  • if already dosed, amount of that dose, time of day given and your Time Zone (such as Eastern, Pacific, etc.);
  • how much time has elapsed since you did the last BG test and your last shot;
  • when your cat last ate, type of food and how much.
Never give an additional amount of insulin during the same 12 hour cycle, even if you think you missed and gave a fur shot. Better to be too high for a day than too low for a minute. Safety first!
 
Thank you for the tips, honestly I’m not usually doing his cycle so late, just the last day or so I’ve been on an unusual schedule, hoping to be back on track tomorrow, or later today I should say. I will take a look on here about what to put in my signature and how to properly inform about my Bubbs
 
I am going to tag the people that helped me the most while on Prozinc but because it is very late and most will be asleep, you will probably get some responses tomorrow.
Prozinc is a smaller forum.
Also if you don't receive an answer you should post a thread on the Main Forum with a question mark in the prefix, especially if it is time sensitive, (Like whether to give a shot).
I was always told if you aren't sure whether you should give a shot (Don't give the shot), better to be too high than to low for a minute.
@Djamila @Kris & Teasel @Rachel @MrWorfMen's Mom
 
If you skip the dose (No Shot=N/S) you can return to your Kitty's regular dosing time the following cycle to get back on schedule. You can look on Bear's Spreadsheet for an example.
I wish you and your kitty well, goodnight. :)
 
Good morning! Yes, as Lora said, we're a smaller forum and most of us are in bed late at night. I'm usually the early morning person here during the week...have to be up for work and I'm on the East Coast so I'm here before leaving. I do think not giving a shot was a good choice last night. It's hard to decide on these things without much data (which I get...it takes time to accumulate data!).

Yes, today you should be able to get back on track as long as he is high enough...which he almost surely will be. :)
 
Good morning! Sounds like a good thing that you found a new vet (and the forum). I can't imagine why your vet would say once/day, but it's not the first time we've seen that. I wonder if they do it because they think it will just be easier on the human?

Anyway...great job taking control of the situation, getting the food change started, and home testing! Bubbles numbers so far look really promising.

You said you shot later than normal yesterday, so I just want to confirm: was the 133 test actually 11 hours after the dose was given? Or at the "normal" +11 time which since you shot late might not have been 11 hours after the dose?

If it really was 11 hours after the dose was given, I think the 1.5u dose might be a little too high right now. Do you think you could eyeball 1.25u on the syringes you have?
 
Babbs and Bubbles said:
Thank you for the tips, honestly I’m not usually doing his cycle so late, just the last day or so I’ve been on an unusual schedule, hoping to be back on track tomorrow, or later today I should say. I will take a look on here about what to put in my signature and how to properly inform about my Bubbs
Click to expand...
Here's how to set up your signature and what would help:
  • click on your name in the upper right corner of this page
  • click on "signature" in the men that drops down
  • type the following in the box that opens: kitty's name/age/date of diabetes diagnosis/insulin you're using /glucose meter you're using/what he eats/any other meds or health issues he has.
Another thing that will help us help you now that you've started BG testing at home is to set up a spreadsheet like the one we use here. We can all see it and look at it before offering advice: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/
 
So I took Bubbles BG an hour ago, it was at 5.7/103.. I realize most ppl go to bed before I do his PSPM and feed at 11:30. If it is the same as last night where it’s still in the blue, which I imagine it will be, do I do another no shot? Doing that last night his PSAM was quite high the next morning and I felt I had to give him 2 units instead of his usual 1.5. A trend of one shot a day seems to be happening which is what I’m trying to get away from. Recommendations for tonight? At what point do I just not give him a shot? Should I do a half shot so he gets a normal dose tomorrow morning?
 
Hi. One important thing to not to be too influenced by the PS number, especially if it is after a No Shot, when we might expect that the number will be higher than we would like. Dosing is based more on the nadir (the lowest point in the cycle), and the PS is really more important for making sure that Bubbles is high enough to give a shot.

Can I ask when you started switching over your kitty's food and how long you've been at that? Are you completely switched over now? What was your kitty eating before?
 
If a dose of 1.5 u resulted in an evening no shot two days in a row it's recommended that the dose be lowered a little so you can give that same dose both AM and PM. I suggest you try 1.25 u (eyeballed) tomorrow AM and PM. It might be another no shot tonight. As @Jenna Josie said above, the dose is determined by how low the BG goes not by how high the PS is.
 
@Jenna Josie, I started switching over my food a month ago, before he was on only the preformatrin kibble, I free fed him. He got 3/4 a cup a day and I put down another 3/4 when I went to bed. He got his shot mid day and his numbers were always very high, like at a 18-28 range. I was told to take his bg and adjust the dose to how high it was. Somewhere between 2-4 units.

I didn’t stop putting kibble down, I just started giving him wet food twice a day, and he stopped eating as much dry food.

So his food is as follows,
1/2 3oz can of simply nourish source at 11:00-11:30 am.
When he walks away from that I give him his shot and leave down a quarter cup kibble for the day. I have noticed when his bg gets low he will eat a few pieces of kibble, so I’m afraid to not have dry food available when I’m out for the day.
He then gets either half a 3oz of fancy feast, or a quarter of a 5.5 oz friskees pate at 11:00-11:30 pm.
Again I wait for him to be done and this is usually when I’m suppose to give him his second shot. I then leave another quarter cup of kibble out in case he needs it through the night.
 
It’s great that you’ve got him almost switched over to wet food! The sooner that is completed, the steadier his numbers should become, and the better his BG overall. I think it’s kind of like when a person who typically eats really healthily eats a sugar doughnut — zoom!

Probably the best thing to keep him from going too low (and therefore from seeking out that higher carb kibble) would be to lower the dose as Djamila and Kris have suggested. Hopefully that will start steadying him, and you’ll be able to give the same doses am and pm. With the slightly lower dose, you might feel more comfortable leaving out some extra canned food instead of kibble over night/during the day “just in case” when you’re not home. Typically regular carb food should be fine to help them steer themselves up, especially if — because of the lower dose — he’s not going quite so low as he maybe has been.
 
Thank you for all the help, I really appreciate it. The issue is mostly Bubbs won’t eat a full amount of wet food in a sitting, the vet said he should get a full 3oz in the AM and half a 5.5 oz in the evening, with no kibble. But he just walks away from it and I’m afraid it will spoil, plus I can’t know for sure who goes to eat it as it’s a multi cat home.
 
Babbs and Bubbles said:
Thank you for all the help, I really appreciate it. The issue is mostly Bubbs won’t eat a full amount of wet food in a sitting, the vet said he should get a full 3oz in the AM and half a 5.5 oz in the evening, with no kibble. But he just walks away from it and I’m afraid it will spoil, plus I can’t know for sure who goes to eat it as it’s a multi cat home.
Click to expand...
It's fine if left out... I leave food out all day while I'm gone. Or you could leave some in a timed feeder with an ice cube for mid day /night
 
Yes, it's absolutely fine to leave out wet food. In warmer weather sometimes we'll freeze food into ice cubes and leave it out that way so that they eat the fresh food first, then later the frozen food is thawed and they can eat that. But in winter I just leave it out all day and it's no problem at all. Getting rid of the kibble will be really important for Bubbles to have a chance at remission. Even just a few pieces can keep their numbers bouncing all over the place.

As others have said, while the PS numbers are important so you know if he's too low, it's the nadir numbers, and the impact on the next cycle that help us know if the dose is right. And moving the dose around from one cycle to the next can make it really hard to stabilize. Sometimes you have to adjust the dose like that, but you want to aim for the most consistent dose you can instead of chasing the PS numbers.

It can take some time to start to get a feel for looking at the trends and patterns over time, and not just each number as its own thing, and we're here to help.
 
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