Disappointment 10/22

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Sue and Oliver (GA)

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Wally took Costello to a vet yesterday for his eye infection. The vet suggestion is to test once daily, hold the 1.5 dose for a week and then do a curve. I explained why we see that as a dangerous idea and now I think he is going to test before each shot at least. I did explain we would not be willing to give any future dose advice if he only had one preshot daily for data.

So eye infection may enter into it but today's preshot was high at 503. He says he is going to continue with 1.5 regardless of the numbers until a week is up.

So I won't be getting any more numbers by phone unless I hear from him.
 
How sad. I'll pray for Costello.

How can vets continue to be so irresponsible. Lets hope that Wally will think it over and reconsider.
 
I just don't understand why vets would say these kind of things! I do understand they can't be experts in diabetes but this just seems like basic info. Would they tell a human to shoot without testing?

Sue, you truly are a saint. I've been reading & I know how hard you have tried to help. You have been busy lately with all the newbies. Thank goodness you are here for them! o:-)
 
Just spoke to wally. Will post more when i get off work...
carl
 
I haven't been following too much lately, but cats are pretty resilient, so hopefully he will do ok. Of course it is not ideal, but it is hard for everyone to sort out vet advice vs. other advice, I think it is very hard for most people to go against their vets advice - I know I stuggled with that for a few months before I gained enough confidence in what I knew to trust myself.

It is great you & others here can offer support & assistance. Hopefully things will improve!
 
I spoke to Wally for a few minutes this afternoon. First I wanted to let him know that according to the USPS, a package sent by dcin arrived to his mailing address last Saturday. I'm going to PM or email him the tracking number showing delivery info, and hopefully he can find out what happened to it.

He did tell me that Costello is getting oral liquid ABs for the eye infection, along with a topical cream, but he didn't remember the specific name of the AB, just that it was a "long name". It wasn't amoxicylin or baytil then. I advised him that some cats will show a reaction to ABs, and that it could be loss of appetite or diarrhea that he needed to watch for. I told him that if Costello had a reaction like that, he needed to call the vet immediately to let him know it was happening.

He does sound determined to follow vet's advice on testing and dosing. He did reassure me that he IS testing before shooting both AM and PM. I don't think he's doing any mid-cycle tests though, so he won't have any idea about nadir numbers. I sort of understand, only because my vet had the same theory. "shoot the preshots" basically. Now I understand why that is risky, but back then I didn't. Unfortunately, Wally does understand that risk, but I don't know how to convince him to at least test around +6.

We talked about dose increases, and how they needed to be small. He said that vet had discussed increases of .25u, once a week. It that's the advice, then that is good advice, and it sounds at least like the vet grasps that concept.

I encouraged Wally to check in with us whenever he had the chance to get on a computer. I hope he does that.

The other thing I cautioned him on - at some point, Costello will get past the related issues such as infections, diarrhea, lack of appetite, etc. and his BG would drop as a result of the problems. He really needed to watch the PS readings, because eventually, they'll come down, and possible quickly. I told him that when he saw that happen, he needed to either check BG more often to see how low Costello is going, or he needed to tell the vet ASAP in case a dose reduction was needed.

I am not sure what else we can do for Wally or Costello. If he doesn't communicate to us what is going on freely, then what are we supposed to do? What's frustrating is that it is Costello that might suffer.
 
If the vet scolded him for testing too much, it may have scared him off. It is hard sometimes to go against vet's recommendations and I'm sure some threaten to not treat an animal if you don't follow their recommendations. I feel fortunate every day that my vet lets me make decisions and listens to what I have to say or think about treating Henry's condition. I called her every day for 6 or 7 months to report all his numbers and doses and I still take his log book/spreadsheets in for her to go over, shes always been patient and offered her thoughts and never charged me for this. She gave us Henry's first bottle of ProZinc and syringes free when he was diagnosed when we both had no jobs and had lost unemployment.
Wally will probably be back for advice especially when Costello's numbers start dropping AM & PM.
At least he is testing before his shots and not dosing 3x aday.
Sue and Carl you have been very patient and gave him great advice. Lets all pray Costello will get better from his infections, etc. and start getting better numbers and stay safe.
 
I'm sorry, I didn't realize that the vets system was so contrary to the group's. I don't think it's that much different, as the two and a half days leading up to the vet, I was giving 1.5 units twice/day, anyway. So now I'm just continuing the same trend. And two vets said that it takes the pancreas a week to adjust to a new level, and that was what I had been thinking, myself, before even seeing them. It makes sense, as it seemed every time we changed doses, there was a bounce. I think my vet was wromg for prescribing lantus, originally, as well as the location of the injection sites. But I switched to pzi, and am not shooting behind the neck-shoulder area, but near the stomach, now. I do want to keep in touch. And if it dips below 200, I will call Sue. Actually the vet said nothing about testing, until doing the curve after the week is over. My idea was one test a day, but am taking Sue's advice, and testing twice/day.
 
Wally if you can hang for five minutes i will pm you that tracking number
 
I'm glad you will be checking twice daily, Wally. I was very concerned that the you were going to test once daily.

It's very true the doses bounced around at first, but he was coming off large doses TID and we were trying to get his numbers into safe zones. I am a little concerned at 1.5 for 500s. It isn't much insulin. But the high numbers can be due to the infection. As long as you test for ketones daily, he may stay safe. We would just hate to see him in those high numbers for a week on a pretty low dose.

And without mid cycle numbers, it is hard to really see what the insulin is doing.

As I said, he is your cat and you have to decide about his treatment.
 
Carl, sorry, I was researching cat food on the net. Looks like natural balance venison and green pea, for $1.30- 6 0z can is the best so far. I'll be around another 20 minutes or so, if you want to post the tracking #. Or email it to my sister's email. Thanks- Wally
 
Wally, I sent it in a PM. If you look at the top of the screen, it should say "1 new message".
 
london2z said:
Carl, sorry, I was researching cat food on the net. Looks like natural balance venison and green pea, for $1.30- 6 0z can is the best so far. I'll be around another 20 minutes or so, if you want to post the tracking #. Or email it to my sister's email. Thanks- Wally

I looked it up and it sounds like good food. It specified "grain free", just wish it told you the carb content. It would be nice if he can eat it and it be something he doesn't have an alergic reaction to like poultry.
 
Hi all! I'm speculating on all of this, but it dawned on me last night that, doesn't it all come down to his pancreas, and whether or not it is putting out insulin? If he has type 1 diabetes, then his pancreas is not fully operating, and more dependent on outside insulin. And it would be a matter of finding the balance between that and the liver-glucose production, which might explain the ups and downs so far. So, in that case, if 1 and 1/2 units were too low, it seems the readings would go up and stay high. At that point, an increase in insulin would be best, I'm sure, ASAP. But if it's type 2, then the BG levels should come down, gradually, with the same dose twice/day, and stabilize after 1 week. The dose might go up a little, or stay the same, for the next week, etc., until the BG's gradually went down to 100-200, and stabilized. The vets should consider that it may be type 1, and make sure to do at-least a couple of BG tests/day. Or even if type 2. They can't assume it will be type 2, even though it almost always is. And then the cat's pancreas may even totally recover, and no more outside insulin.
 
Hi Wally,

It potentially could be type 1 - I think the stat I've read says that 85-90% of the time it is type 2, but some cats must make up that 10-15%.
Either way, just about every cat diagnosed needs insulin, whether short term or long term or forever in some cases.
There's all sorts of links about it, a couple of which would be these:

http://felinediabetes.com/dummies.htm
http://www.vet.cornell.edu/fhc/brochures/diabetes.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diabetes_in_cats
http://catinfo.org/?link=felinediabetes (this is Dr. Lisa's info)

Sometimes the pancreas functions incorrectly, and it can be due to damage from infection for instance. Sometimes it quits working (at least as far as insulin production) at all. In many cases, that damage can be partially or mostly repaired, at least to the point where a cat can be regulated or controlled and have BG just over normal with tiny doses on insulin every day for the rest of his life. Some cats go into remission, but that can be short term or long term. Even in cats, there is no such thing as being "cured" of diabetes. Bob is a diet controlled diabetic. Hopefully he'll stay that way forever, but there's no guarantee of that. He'll always be one bag of dry food away from a relapse.

This is something I've read that I think is good:

Regulating your cat ideally requires an understanding of how insulin works, and the relationship between insulin and food. It requires patience, and a certain scientific detachment to overcome the instinct to make several changes simultaneously in a desperate attempt to stumble on something that works. Even if you get lucky and find that the glucose is under control, you won't know why, and when something changes (and it will) you have no knowledge to help you decide on how to deal with the sudden loss of regulation.

One simplistic approach is to increase insulin slowly until you think the cat feels pretty good. For me that is just the starting point. I believe that blood testing is the sole reliable measure of regulation -- the brain grabs it's share of the available glucose, if necessary short-changing the body cells ... the cat may be perkier and more responsive, but some organs are left in a permanent state of minor overload, and the rest of the tissues slowly deteriorate.

It hits all the main points we advise here - insulin and food interacting, going slow, and home testing, all combined to manage the disease effectively.


Another one which stresses that remission is possible in type 2 diabetes cases:
It is in most cases, it is possible to induce remission (a temporary or permanent freedom from insulin-dependence) in type-2 diabetic cats. This appears to be unique to cats. There is growing agreement among experts[10][29] that a combination of low carbohydrate healthy diet, long-lasting insulin, and well-chosen dosage plans can in many cases partially heal a damaged pancreas and allow the cat's blood sugar to be controlled entirely by diet thereafter. (A low carbohydrate diet is usually required for the remainder of the cat's life.)

Remission is a realistic goal for treatment of type-2 diabetic cats (that is, 80-95% of all diabetic cats) who are properly regulated quickly.[34] Chances of success are highest in the first few months after initial diagnosis, due to ongoing damage from glucose toxicity caused by hyperglycemia. This limited time window is a good reason to start with low carbohydrate diet and very slow-acting insulins, the most successful known combination, right away.
In both types, the ability of the pancreas to produce insulin is effected. Type 1, the pancreas' beta cells can't produce enough insulin. With type 2, there's decreased production, plus there is insulin resistance going on within kitty's cells:
There are two types of diabetes. Type 1 and Type 2. Type 2 is the more common form in both humans and cats.

Type 1 occurs when the beta cells of the pancreas are not able to produce enough insulin.

Type 2 is characterized by two problems. The first, as in Type 1, is a diminished ability of the pancreas to secrete insulin. The second issue is one of insulin resistance. In other words, the receptors on the cell wall that would normally open the door to the cell to let the glucose in when insulin 'knocks', stop 'listening' to the insulin. The cells 'resist' the signal that the circulating insulin is sending and the glucose is not transferred to the inside of the cell, resulting in an elevated blood glucose (hyperglycemia) and cellular 'starvation'. The elevated blood glucose, in turn, sends a signal to the pancreas telling it to secrete more insulin. The elevated insulin may somewhat override the insulin resistance resulting in more glucose entering the cells, but eventually the pancreas can become exhausted or 'burned out'.

Bottom line, Wally. Odds are that Costello most likely has type 2, simply because the overwhelming majority do. Most cats on the board are type 2s. Costello's numbers and results so far a pretty much "normal" for cats we see in FDMB. And the way that you describe the treatment and the improvements in BG? I don't follow the logic that for type 1's it would be initially any different. In both types,the pancreas isn't functioning well. In both types we see liver action releasing glucagon. In type 2, you still have to increase the dose until you find one that works before there's an improvement and the dose can start to come down. Consider the insulin resistance mentioned by Dr. Lisa in type 2 cases. Some type 2s never get to the "healed" stage, where the insulin dose is eventually removed. I guess what I'm saying is that no matter which type, a cat can require insulin permanently. It's more likely that a type 2 will go into remission, I suppose, but not a "given".

A cat with 400-500 bg levels is putting out little to no pancreatic insulin. Once a kitty starts to live in the pink/yellow/blue zones, we sometimes see what we call a "sputtering pancreas", where the pancreas will work some, which we always see as an extremely positive sign that healing is taking place. I think that a cat with usually high numbers is just about totally dependent on outside insulin, at least until the numbers are controlled to a good degree.

wow. now THAT's "wordy"....
Carl
 
Hi Carl- Boy, it gets complicated! I was an accounting major in college, and never much at biology, etc. It's hard to say whether he is a 1 or a 2. But I guess I based my opinions on the assumption that in type 1, the body is producing less insulin, and more dependent on outside insulin. Wheras, in type 2, the body's own insulin is being produced more fully, even though the cells are insulin-resistant to an extent, so I'm thinking there would be a better chance of the body's own insulin to supplement the outside insulin properly.
I gave the P.O. the tracking #, and they are looking into it. I did recieve the packages on monday the 17th, one which (from Cindy), included a contour meter, three things of test strips, and two packages of lancets. The other package, from Patti included money and syringes. The other was an envelope from Sue, which had a gift card. I also recieved a few things of ketone strips, but not sure which package they were in. I need to write everything down, sorry. And that's all, so far.
I tried doing a BG test this morning, and couldn't get even a hint of blood. I tried three different lancets, and different settings, still no luck. And on the vein.
 
Wally,
Yes, reading all that stuff made my head spin too.
Have you ever tried using the lancet "free hand"? Some people, me included, felt a lot more in control of the testing/poking by just holding the lancet like it's a sewing needle. Does one ear bleed better than the other? Bob is "left eared" I guess.

Is Costello eating okay? Outward signs good? Keep us updated on how he's doing, even beyond just the numbers, OK?

Carl
 
Hi there. I was able to get a draw out this morning, and BG was 369. I was wrong, I think, about either keeping the dose for the second week the same or slightly higher if the numbers are coming down. I think it should be slightly lower dose in that case. My friend is diabetic, and he said he has to take aspirin every day just to get enough blood for tests. So maybe it's not uncommon. Plus the fact that I had been taking draws twice a day. Neither ear worked, yesterday. The numbers seem to be gradually easing downward, so I'm pretty sure it's not type 1. I called the P.O. again, and still nothing. You sent a contour meter and strips, also, didn't you? I only have the one from Cindy. So it couldn't have been mixed in with her's.
He is eating fine. Still not going as regular as should be, even with the milk of magnesia. I should have given him enema at home and saved my sister $200.00! I didn't know. TC-
 
Hi Wally,

If his numbers are still in the 300-400 range, I do not think you should reduce the dose. What numbers are you getting? The ones we have talked about have all been 300-400. Are you getting lower numbers? We tried reducing for a few cycles early on (check your ss attached to my signature) and it did not improve the numbers.

Haven't seen much about milk of magnesia. Here is the only thread that mentions it:

Since his magnesium level tested on the lower end a few weeks ago I had been supplementing with 1ml of Milk of Magnesia daily and his constipation issues had completely disappeared
But his magnesium level was high when we tested again last week and my vet is concerned that continuing the supplement might cause kidney stones. So, I've reduced the amount to 0.5ml and he's not quite as happy in the poop department.

The more you poke, the easier it is to get blood. (The explanation I heard is that the capillaries get larger the more they are poked.) If you have reduced testing, that could explain why it is harder to get him to bleed.

If you want advice about changing the dose, I can call and get your most recent numbers to fill out the ss.
 
Hi Wally,
Don't know what the deal is with the post office. According to the info on the tracking number I sent you, their computers say it was delivered. Can you go to the post office that delivers your mail? Tell them to ask the guy if he remembers delivering it?
It was a contour meter, 200 strips, some lancets and some keto-stix, mailed from Deleware to you, priority mail on the 13th, so it only took 2 days to get there, which is incredible enough in itself!

I agree with Sue. Those numbers are still too high to indicate a dose reduction is needed.
Until he starts dipping down into blue numbers, you have plenty of room to come down with his BG.

Ear poking - Weird how your friend needs to take asprin (as a blood thinner?) in order to get enough blood for a test. Do you know what kind of meter he uses? How many times a day does he have to test? I poked my finger a couple times with a lancet (not on purpose) and I bled like a stuck pig! Not for long, but a lot more than the tiny drop I needed to test with - the first time I did it, I had the meter out for Bob, so I figured, what the heck, test myself. I think it was 103 after 2 or 3 coffee w/cream and sugars, so I didn't think that was too bad.
Are you super positive you are poking Costello in the right spot? Between the vein and the edge of the ear? You can use the whole edge of the ear, it doesn't always have to be in the same area. I usually look for a spot where the vein is most visible, so I can see it to make sure I don't hit it directly.

I'm not sure on the MofM either, but I'll ask in Health if anybody uses it for constipation. There might be something else people have had good success with.

Also, what Sue said....about advice. If you want us to advise on dose, it has to be done here on the board (peer review). None of us can give you one-on-one advice over the phone without everyone else having a chance to discuss it first. It's against the terms of use for FDMB and none of us wants to get kicked off the board for breaking the rules. We are all happy to discuss Costello's SS and figure out how to help, but it has to be all-hands-on-deck. There's another kitty right now in the same situation - no internet at home, and a member is speaking to her and posting on Health for dosing advice. It's sort of chaotic, but it's better than nothing.

Let us know how it going,
Carl
 
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