disappointed in progress

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Anyname

Anyname

Member Since 2010
I've read that PZI is more in tune with the feline's natural chemistry - might Little Boy do better on PZI? (if I can even get it in Australia) I'm quite disappointed with Little Boy's results to this stage. He is being cared for by two intelligent people in their late 50's who are treating him like an invalid. (he's lapping up the attention). We have increased Lantus to over 3 units but can't be more specific coz are waiting for syringes from the pharmacy that measure half units. I'm thinking we need to move up to 3.5units. We are two and a half weeks on 3 units and I believe the numbers are too high still - not really that different to when he was diagnosed. He is on 100% protein diet since before dx. Tested blood for ketones mid morning - 3 hrs after morning injection - still showing 0.1. Not much point us being prepared for a hypo session as only had one blue number in 36 or so blood glucose tests. :cry:

marilyn
 
Wondering what the 100% protein diet consists of....can you say what you are feeding....
What syringes are you using now?

ETA: I just found a previous post: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=18039

We each open up a thread or "condo" for each kitty each day and put the previous day's link in that one...
Sorry if you have posted previous to that ~I must have missed it.
Good job linking your SS to your posts!
 
Hi Marilyn

sorry you're seeing these numbers, but I will say, and you may of heard it before, Lantus takes patience and time.
Trust me, you sound like a wonderful mom to Little Boy. Like you said, he's loving the attention.


I found this over in the health forum, you mentioned you are feeding Science Diet MD.
Health thread June 24

I can't seem to find the carb % on that brand, is it canned? I'm hoping someone has the info, I'm curious what the carb content is.

Also, is the expiry date on your ketostix box ok?
I'm glad to see you do check, often is best, even with just a trace. You don't want it sneaking up on you.
 
Here is the link to Janet & Binky's food chart...
http://binkyspage.tripod.com/CanFoodNew.html

If you are indeed feeding Hills Prescription MD, the carbo count is rather high. WOW!!!
We try to feed low-carb foods found on the chart ...prices are more reasonable than the prescription foods too. I use Wellness flavors and Evo 95% chicken & turkey and people here have had success with Fancy Feast foods too. The lower carb foods are what you want....

Canned foods have the required vitamins necessary for good health. Protein alone doesn't give the kitties the necessary nutrients. There are websites that give the additional vitamins needed if you are going to make homemade cat food. Dry food is high in carbos too so that is a no-no.

Ronnie brings up a good point about the ketone test strips....it is great that you test often. But the expiration date is important.
 
Expiry date ketone stiprs june 2011. Syringe measures only in units. ordered half unit syringes meant to arrive today. MD Science diet (1 tin only), introduced last nite. Purchased from Vet clinic as high protein wet food for diabetic cats. Only bought 1 tin to trial. He ate it thru the nite. Rest of food is all fresh, high quality raw meats plus tinned tuna (in springwater).

Obviously we have no choice but to be patient. But I am worrying that LB is suffering long term damage from too high levels of glucose. If he was a human would they go so long with these high numbers? If he's getting insulin that is designed to do what his pancreas should be doing, then why aren't the numbers coming down more?
 
Sorry Marilyn, just a couple of questions....what does the raw food diet consist of? You're adding supplements to it?
Is he drinking water? How often does he go to litterbox? Oh, I guess that was a few questions.

I wouldn't go towards the vet cans either. If thats the range of carbs I wouldn't use it.
Is there any other heath issues Little Boy has?

hang in there ok? We'll try to figure it out with you.
 
OK LB was diagnosed how long ago? Less than a month. How long has LB been sick? Judging by the info in you profile, I'd guess LB did not get in his current condition overnite, so I am not understanding how you can expect his little body to snap right to perfect health. It's going to take some time.

Take a look at my two ss, or any of the others around here and look back to the start of their ss numbers. If you can find one where the cat was getting good solid blues and greens after less than a month, ask how that happened.

I think you have lost sight of LB - stop looking so closely at the numbers and focus more on how LB is doing.

Seriously look at how LB was before dx and how he is now. What's improved? I am sure in time you are going to start seeing little things you had forgotten LB did before and had stopped. You will see his coat becoming healthier, smoother, shinier. You will see a more relaxed LB, and if drinking lots, you may see that decrease over time, if urinating alot, that too will decrease with time. There are so very many things that are MUCH more important than the numbers.

Yes, the numbers matter, but to a certain point. If high numbers, then be sure to test for ketones often as possible, but other than that, you need to realize that YOU are not the boss in how things are going to go. LB is the boss and when LB is ready, that's when you will see things move more.

You can't rush LB and changing insulin after less than a month is not going to do much.
Lantus and Lev are very good insulins, but it's going to take some time. Look for the little successes, and over time you will see a slow movement in less of the higher number and more of the lower number

Aim for a happy Litttle Boy and the rest will follow.
 
Hi! I do not believe that PZI is being made anymore to my knowlledge--
I assume that you have read all the stickys at the top of the lantus page, and got all that good good info on how to care for a cat on lantus-
Right??--OK. Please Know that these things count-

What you are feeding the cat--your cat needs to be eating low carb foods in order for bg to go down.-see Janet & Binky"s food lists

Is your insulin new & have you checked with our dosing helpers to see what dose will be good for you(I wouldnt decide to raise or lower your cat's dose with out asking our dosing people.)

Being Consistant-- with the protocol & with a dose for at least 5-7 days, sometimes it takes a while for the dose to settle in cat's body.

BE PATIENT...Your kitty will do well, look at all our success stories..
You will see progress, but ECID every cat is different--Please be patient, ask questions, there is much to be learned here..
Welcome to Lantus Land!
 
Hi: Welcome to LL. Science Diet MD is 14% carbs. He should be eating something under 10% carbs. That could be part of the problem with his numbers.
 
The long acting types of insulin (Lantus and Levemir) do not have an immediate response. In addition, they have less of a potency which is made up for in duration and overlap between shots. They are also less harsh so you don't have the sudden onset and sudden drops that are more typical of the shorter acting insulins. In other words, it boils down to being patient. Do not expect that every cat here will be in remission in under a month. I have been treating Gabby's diabetes for over a year. This is a marathon, not a sprint.

A 100% protein diet of raw meat and tuna is problematic over the long term. There are trace minerals and other nutrients, such as taurine and calcium, that are essential for a cat's diet. If you want to feed a raw diet (and I feed both of my cat's raw), you need to add either a pre-mix of supplements or purchase the individual items and add these to LB's food. Apparently, Australia has fairly strict oversight of pre-mix products and the company I use doesn't ship there. However, there is a website authored by Lisa Pierson who is a vet with an interest in feline diabetes. The section of her site on feline nutrition has an entire section dedicated to making a making raw food .
 
I thought I would try one tin of Science diet so as to introduce the extra vits that he's not getting with raw meat diet. I am not sure that we get the sort of products that you talk about in Australia. I have to go back to find the URL that was written for Australian's with cats with diabetes. I personally don't want to give LB Fancy Feast any more.

Little Boy is presumed to have an eosinophilic granuloma on his tongue - I didn't let them biopsy it when he was last under anesthetic - there is no treatment for it so why cut his tongue open for a diagnosis. He's had the growth for about two years. Then recently it started to interfer with his chewing/swallowing hence he went on to the cortizone. Prednisone (sp?). I hated giving it to him. He was on one morning and nite for a while. I decreased the dosage before receiving permission from the vet and then I stopped it without permission. I could tell it was upsetting LB a lot. Vet kept saying "it's only a small dose", but I could tell it was really upsetting him. He seemed very agitated and kinda startled all the time. Then started pee'ing and drinking and eating too much. So the diabetes has only come on since March or April. Prolly in the pipeline though...

Vet says granuloma has shrunk with the treatment but it's still there - not interfering with his eating now though. I'm hoping that maybe the switch to fresh meat diet will help - less opportunity for allergies. For the moment it's forgotten in favour of sorting out his diabetes. He wasn't meant to finish prednisone till mid June and he's been off them for 5 or 6 weeks.

Ok, I will calm down and stop worrying. I know that the raw meat diet isn't good enough - will find the other site about what's available in OZ and study that up.

Sorry I don't know how to link my previous messages to a new thread.

marilyn - and thanx for input.
 
There is at least one other member from Australia who was feeding Ziwi Peak brand.

In all likelihood, the steroid is what triggered the diabetes. There are a number of cats here who have conditions that require a steroid, such as prednisone. Insulin can be adjusted to offset the effects of a steroid, if it's needed. Just a side note for the future - steroids should not be stopped abruptly. The dose needs to be slowly tapered down.

I don't think a can of food every now and then will be sufficient to supply all of the nutrients that LB will need. The canned food is formulated to be nutritionally complete. If you feed it intermittently, the components that are necessary for a balanced diet won't be there on a regular basis. It would be like eating only steak every day and then eating a vegetarian meal for lunch one day in order to get all of the other vitamins in. You'd still be missing out on a balanced diet overall.

The info from Dr. Lisa's site contains the list of supplements that you would need to add to a raw diet. They should be available at a good health food/vitamin store or from a source on-line.

As far as the granuloma, you may want to avoid products that are high in allergens. These would include any food made with gluten. Also, beef and fish can be a source for allergy. Look at novel proteins -- duck, venison, etc. -- as a possible source of protein.
 
:::There is at least one other member from Australia who was feeding Ziwi Peak brand.

Never seen anything like that brand here. Sounds like NZ. Ziwi --- Kiwi which is a fruit in NZ.

:::: Just a side note for the future - steroids should not be stopped abruptly. The dose needs to be slowly tapered down.

Yes I was already tapering him when I stopped him. He was meant to be taking it every other day. I made it every three days and then stopped it.

:::::I don't think a can of food every now and then will be sufficient to supply all of the nutrients that LB will need.

No, but this was my first attempt to improve LBs diet new high protein diet. I am aware that the new diet is not acceptable but I've been concentrating on the spread sheet and home testing. I will have to try to purchase supplements on line - which may be problematic due to strict import regulations for australia. I will also ask the vet next monday if he knows where I can buy feline supplements. (vet already thinks I'm crazy!)

As far as the granuloma, you may want to avoid products that are high in allergens. These would include any food made with gluten.

Apart from the experimental tin of food last nite, LB is on a gluten free diet.

thanx
 
[quote="Anyname] I will have to try to purchase supplements on line - which may be problematic due to strict import regulations for australia. I will also ask the vet next monday if he knows where I can buy feline supplements. (vet already thinks I'm crazy!)

thanx[/quote]

Hi Marilyn

Sienne has already given you the link, but here it is again:

http://www.catinfo.org/makingcatfood.htm

I'm not sure what special supplements you think the diet needs, all of them are available in your normal pharmacy or health shop. My SIL lives in Sydney and she uses these and they are freely available. They are human vitamins that are added in the correct ratio to the food. Please see the link. Taurine is not a "cat" vitamin, it's available at health shops as it's also a human antioxidant.

Please be patient with the Lantus. Chopping and changing things without given them a chance to work is not doing LB any favours. Also, your expectations need to realistic. Although, the protocol that is followed here is probably the best chance your cat has of going into remission, remission is never guaranteed. Every cat is different. Some will take longer than others, some might never achieve remission at all, but the correct dose and monitoring keeps them as comfortable as possible for as long as possible. Ultimately this is your goal considering the alternative is a very sick kitty.

Also, one more question, are you still feeding LB close to his pre - shots? how often are you feeding him a day and how close to pre-shots? What is your feeding schedule?
 
:::They are human vitamins that are added in the correct ratio to the food. Please see the link. Taurine is not a "cat" vitamin, it's available at health shops as it's also a human antioxidant.

I think I only process about 25% of what I read. I will go back over all the posts where I've received advice and jot down more notes on things that I now realise I need to pay more attention to. Taking notes is the answer.

We are not feeding LB 2 hours prior the testing. I relent maybe 10% of the time and feed him an hour earlier if he's really distressed. Instinct tells me that it's better for him to be happy than distressed by hunger. He has a low ketone reading so if he's really agitated from hunger I assume something in his body is telling him to eat quickly. The morning one is easier as he's waking us around 3am for food. So I am feeding him around 5pm and can do the nite insulin with 2 hours before food. He has about 7 little meals in 24 hours.

I'm just going to cool it and not test him quite as much for a couple of days and keep giving him a little over 3 units and wait.
 
Hang in there, things will get better. My Logan was on prednisolone (steroid) for several months and it caused a great deal of insulin resistance. We've been tapering him off for the last couple of months. He was up to 7.75 units and not moving much while on the pred. How long ago did you stop the pred? I've noticed that it takes quite a bit of time to work out ofthere system so that could be part of his lack of response. Logan is also an overweight kitty and fat can cause resistance. How's LB's weight?

Logan has Inflammatory Bowel Disease (IBD) so we've tried to find diets with limited ingredients that are also low carb. I tried the Ziwipeak with him and he really liked it at first but will no longer eat it. It comes in Lamb and Venison flavors. I know Andrew (look for "Andrew and Mim" in the profile look up) fed Mim Ziwipeak for a while and he's in Australia. It comes from New Zealand. It's supposed to be closer to what they eat in nature. It's not raw but it's lightly cooked in some way. We've also tried the EVO 95% varieties. I'm not sure if those are available in Australia or not.

Just try to be patient. And don't get too frustrated - there is a ton of information out there and it's tough to absorb or even know what to absorb!
 
I won't be able to put LB back on steriods if the tongue thing grows back too much - so I need to get him on to low allergy foods too. The vet keeps telling me to put flea chemicals on him but he doesn't have fleas. He's not had fleas for a couple of years. I can't really blame the steriods for LB's diabetes but they certainly were the last straw.....coz he's such a hungry cat and steriods did nothing to discourage his appetite/weight. His top weight was about 9.2 kilo's early in the year (sorry too late here to do the conversion on Google). He was down the 8.2 kilo's at dx. He felt much lighter. He's a big build of a cat. The vets never went on about him being too heavy but he was IMH.

He's been off the steriods about 6 - 7 weeks.

I'm going to work harder on the old posts to get all the info out that I've so far not managed to retain. I've felt like crap all week. Bad headache - maybe not enough sleep. But both hubby and I are looking after the little guy really well. He's loving it. He purrs when husband picks him up to test his BG. At least we manage the testing with effortless ease. It's not all bad.

thanks for the encouragement and advice. I will look for the ziwi food.

marilyn
 
Just to clarify about the timing of meals...

You don't want to feed 2 hours before you give a shot. As numbers come down, you don't want to get a pre-shot test that reflects a food spike. It will be a false high number. It's less of an issue now, but if you have a 150 and you fed an hour before the shot, you won't know what the actual number is that you are shooting. If LB is really begging, I'd suggest LC treat -- maybe a bit of cooked chicken or something along those lines rather than a meal.

Marilyn & LB said:
So I am feeding him around 5pm and can do the nite insulin with 2 hours before food.
Click to expand...
I may be misunderstanding here so bear with me. What I understand you to be saying is that you are giving LB his insulin 2 hours before you feed him. If this is the case, it's best to test, feed, and shoot all within a few minutes.

The front end of this learning curve is overwhelming. It takes a while for all of the information to come together. We've all been there. Keep asking questions.
 
There is so much to absorb in the beginning....we are all here to help you but it does take time to get everything to sink in.
Please read the stickies at the top of the page of this forum. "New to the Group" and all the others.....they contain important information for you as you begin this journey.

Food greatly influences the BG numbers. The carbo value of the food and the timing of the food as Sienne was saying. above.
We test before feeding and do not have food in the system for about 3-4 hours prior to the testing.
Twice a day we test first, then feed, then shoot. Other times during the day it's best if you test before you give a snack.
If you test too soon after eating, the BGs will show a higher number=food spike.

This is a slow process and the reading for us at first is overwhelming. Try to take deep breaths and take a break so you are not too overwhelmed at one time. During your reading of the stickies, if you have any questions, come back and post.
You have this forum Marilyn so you do have the tools now to handle this.... :YMHUG:
 
You are doing great with LB! Raw food is really good for cats, but the supplements are needed. As others have stated the supplements that are needed should be available at you pharmacy. Here is the recipe from Dr. Lisa:
The Recipe 
I use the following ingredients - in amounts listed - per 3 pounds of raw meat/bones/skin. 
• 1 cup water (or more if your cat will eat it with more water) 
• 2 eggs - use the yolk raw but lightly cook the white 
• 2000 mg wild salmon oil (a good source of essential fatty acids) 
• 400 IU (268 mg) Vitamin E (powdered E in capsules is the easiest to use) 
• 100 mg Vitamin B-complex (You may want to start with half of this amount for the first batch.  B vitamins have a pretty strong odor and I would not want this odor to deter the cat from eating the food.  Once they are eating the food well, then go to the 100mg amount.) 
• 2,000 mg taurine (use powdered - either in capsules or loose) 
• 3/4 tsp Lite salt when using chicken parts - see below** (Contains potassium and sodium.  Make sure that it contains iodine.) 
• Liver - If using ground rabbit (which includes liver) from wholefoods4pets.com, do not add additional liver.  If using chicken legs, thighs or a whole chicken carcass minus the organs, add 4 ounces of chicken livers per 3 lb of meat/bones/skin.
• Psyllium - I no longer use psyllium in my cats' food.  However, if you want to add some as a fiber source, use 2 tsp if using psyllium husk powder.  If using whole psyllium husks, use 4 tsp.  If using psyllium, be sure to add at least 1 cup of water to this recipe, if not more.
Most cats eat 4-6 ounces/day.  Therefore, this recipe yields enough food for one cat for approximately 10-14 days.
Click to expand...
Something to remember is that if you are not using meat ground with bones, you cat is not getting the calcium that it needs. See the recipe on this site for a recipe for meat without bones.http://www.catnutrition.org/recipes.php

One last thing that might help is this video. i watched it several times when I started making raw.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzxL4LBAPsI By the way, don't buy the salmon oil in bottles at the pet store. Get "Fish OIl" capsules and look in the ingredients to be sure that it is from Salmon OIl. I made the mistake of buying the bottle, it goes rancid very quickly and is very hard to determine the mg. amount.
 
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