different protocols

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There is another site that uses close variant of that protocol - kind of an updated YDC. Unfortunately I do not know the name of the site. Venita does though and you can PM her if you like for the name of it.

I'm a little tired so I'm not sure I will do any explanation justice. But basically there was some concern a while back that Dr. Hodgkins belief that cats on low carb diets cannot hypo. Also, that protocol is more geared for TR or tight regulation. It took me just until very recently to appreciate the fact that we herein PZI land really don't have a set "protocol" per say. What we advise is much more nuanced and really open to the owners interpretation to do what they think is in the best interest of the animal. Usually people here start out with some variant of SLGS [start low go slow] then sometimes move [one they gain experience] to a "sliding scale" type dosing that is what Dr. Hodgkins protocol uses. We are actually very open here to any technique that you would like to use with your kitty and we will try our best to support you through that. I posit to say that I don't think any of us here in PZI do exactly the same thing [but it's all close to the same thing and very much related]. I think the one thing that is universal though is to get your kitty off any dry food and on low carb [less than 10% as %Kcal] wet food only. And even then, there are exceptions in fairly uncommon situations [usually for cats with certain complications that involve inappetence]. Since you are familiar with the YDC site you should read the part about where they had EVO tested and it had 13% carbs - not the 7 or 8% they advertise:
http://www.yourdiabeticcat.com/diet.html
I believe they are anti-dry food too. So basically the first thing I would encourage you to do is drop the dry food unless your cat has certain complications.

From what I hear the YDC site is not traveled much these days. If you are gung-ho on tight regulation sliding scale with PZI I would def investigate the new splinter/sister site.

If you have more specific questions please ask. Also it helps if you would tell us about your kitty. I would suggest creating a profile and linking it in your signature so we can read about Ginger. Instructions for this can be found in the top of the Tech Support Forum in the stickies. Once we have the background, also detail your goals for your kitty and what you would like to get out of the DM treatment path you choose.

We would love to have you here and if you chose to go elsewhere please keep us advised of your progress. We are all open to new, fresh and good ideas. :smile:
 
On that site, she does state that cats on low carb diets cannot hypo.....

She also states the dry food company claiming 7% carbs (which she says is really 13%) has potatoes in it.
EVO's ingredient list does not have any type of potatoes.
Regardless if that is true.........EVO is still better than any other dry, until I can get her to eat only the wet.
The food she use to eat probably had 30-40% carbs! I use to always get the weight Maint because my cats were overweight....

Since Ginger is feeling awful, she is not eating much at all.
She is only eating 1-2 tsp of wet 2-3 times a day. If she will not eat it at all, I put water in it.
I also take away her regular water bowl, so if she wants water, she has to get it from the food bowl which causes her to also get a little of the food.
I cannot sit there and ward off the other 2 cats for hours, so after about 30 minutes, if she is not eating it anymore, I put out 1/4 cup of the dry Evo and her water bowl.
She will eat maybe 5 morsels and go back to the water bowl.

I will do that profile. I am usually in the Lantus support group. This is Gingers 16th day on Lantus. For 3 weeks before that she was on Humulin N.
The doctor now wants to try her on PZI so I have been trying to find out info about that before I make my decision on switching so soon.

I will see if I can find Venita and PM her about that other site.

Thanks for the info.
 
just a fwiw, so far your cat hasn't been on any one insulin long enough to give it a chance to work. so i'm not sure i'd be changing again already or if you do, because pzi is more flexible, please ask your vet to give it a fair chance before moving to yet another one or giving up on your cat as i've seen happen before when a vet not up to speed on feline diabetes hopscotches around too much. just wanted to put that out there.

and another fwiw, ydc basically fell apart a bit ago as the administrator got all freaky on people. the old timers from there broke off and started diabeticcatcare.com and there you will find the most help in regards to my old vet's protocol. it is indeed a protocol that works for some kitties butttttt, in takes alot of time and dedication and learning.
 
Cindy + Mousie said:
just a fwiw, so far your cat hasn't been on any one insulin long enough to give it a chance to work. so i'm not sure i'd be changing again already or if you do, because pzi is more flexible, please ask your vet to give it a fair chance before moving to yet another one or giving up on your cat as i've seen happen before when a vet not up to speed on feline diabetes hopscotches around too much. just wanted to put that out there.

and another fwiw, ydc basically fell apart a bit ago as the administrator got all freaky on people. the old timers from there broke off and started diabeticcatcare.com and there you will find the most help in regards to my old vet's protocol. it is indeed a protocol that works for some kitties butttttt, in takes alot of time and dedication and learning.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link.
I am thinking to wait awhile and have a feeling the vet uses the same start slow protocol as this site has, so I would be starting all over............again.
I will read more about the other protocol, but it sounds kinda scarey if you do not really know what the heck you are doing.
My main concern is what these high numbers are doing to hurt her more tho.
 
What are the LL folks saying. It looks like this dose isn't high enough to get good results.

I would think about sticking with the Lantus alittle while longer to avoid starting over. If things don't improve then switch.
 
And/or do your research on the benefits of each insulin and make the choice that best fits you and your kitty. There are certain benefits to PZI and certain benefits to Lantus even certain other benefits to Levimir. Generally if you take the research and your reasons to the vet they will listen - if not, then it might be new vet time. :smile:
 
If you go with a Dr. H approach the keys things I think to know are that cats can and do hypo (not sure why she still has that text in? I don't know details, but I'm certain that notion has been proved wrong by people using the protocol), and that any sliding scale suggested in the protocol is simply a generic starting point, and may or may not have doses that work well for your cat. I believe the original scale (that was about 4u at the top end) has been scaled back (maybe on the new site?) to more like 2u at the high end. Which I agree with - that was my biggest objection to that protocol - 4u might be appropriate on dry food, but it a pretty high dose for many cats on LC, and I can't imagine shooting it unless you have tried lower doses & proved they are not enough.

What I have seen here is that many cats do well on PZI shot BID, and no more aggressive or nuanced approach is needed. Other cats get shorter duration, and benefit from earlier shooting. Some have succeeded with TID, or as-needed. Both of those can be exhausting to attempt, so I usually recommend to people to start with a SLGS-type BID approach (though don't go super-low or super-slow IMO, I like increases of 0.5u every 3-5 days unless you are in pretty good #s and more fine-tuning, then I like 0.2 or even 0.1 for real fine-tuning at whatever pace the #s suggest). And for the cats where that doesn't quite seem to be enough, like if you can see in the #s the insulin is wearing off a lot before +12s, then consider a more custom approach.
 
I am going to stay with Lantus a bit longer.
If it ends up I need to do a more custom approach, I will probably then switch to PZI because of the strict 12 hour lantus regulations.
 
I can see why your vet would want you to switch over to PZI. Looks like Ginger's numbers are getting worse as you increase the dose on Lantus. The YDC protocol, or what is called tight regulation here on FDMB, is basically what you were using when you were on N. It looks like you were shooting every 6-8 hours and getting much better results than you are seeing with Lantus. But I know that's a hard schedule to maintain. The goal of tight regulation is to build up overlap--or when two doses are working at the same time.

Have you tried Ginger on raw food? You can also try mixing canned food in with the Evo and then systematically lower the amount of dry until she's eating all wet.
 
I think the problem was that I did not start on a high enough dose with the lantus and tho I was following the modified Lantus protcol of every 3 day increases because of her readings, I was not giving the proper .50 increase. Instead I was only doing a .25 increase which was not correct for how high her nadairs were.

I am staying on Lantus for awhile longer but going to a More aggresive tight regulation protocol, possibly every 2 days depending on the readings.

Eventually I may go to the PZI, but not just yet.
 
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