Day 7 and Playful

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Kira & Max

Kira & Max

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I'm not sure is this is the right place to post this, but since we're using Prozinc, I thought I should put it here.

Last night, at seven days on Prozinc, Max played without encouragement from us, for the first time in as long as I can remember. We put down a ball/feather toy that twirls around with a battery, and he stalked it for 20 minutes! Usually we have to use a fishing pole type toy to get him interested, and drag it right in front of his face. He spotted this new toy from across the room and actually got his butt up off the couch :) And when he was done playing, he didn't conk out right away, either. The change is amazing!
 
Great news, Kira. It's always nice to see our kitties play again - then you really know they are feeling better. Let us know if you need help setting up your spreadsheet. It's always helpful to see your kitty's numbers.
 
ahhhh yes, i remember when tom was first dx'd years ago, the first time i noticed him feeling so much better. ain't it great?
dancing_cat dancing_cat dancing_cat the happy dance!
 
Vickie and Dusty said:
That is such good news! I have decided to switch to Prozinc when my PZI runs out ---fingers crossed
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Good luck. ProZinc sure is expensive, but I think you can use the bottle to the end, so that's something.
 
"expensive" compared to what?

At Drs. Foster & Smith's a 10ml bottle of Lantus costs the exact same price as 10ml bottle of ProZinc. And it doesn't go bad in 3 months! I've seen this "expensive" argument thrown around and I'm not understanding where it's coming from? I just posted the ProZinc Sources list in the sticky at the top of this forum. I've found it as low as $80 per bottle. One should be able to get ProZinc overnighted to ones doorstep [shipping and everything] for a MAX of $95/bottle. Or one might even be able to get their vet or local pharmacy [that dispenses pet meds] to PRICE MATCH the $80.

Sorry if I'm a little touchy on the subject. :smile: It's just that this board can have a bit of an echo chamber effect - one person says it's "expensive" then all of a sudden everyone is claiming ProZinc is expensive [perhaps, for some, with the motivation to get people to look to other insulins].

Vickie,
Please keep us updated on your progress.
 
Gator & H said:
"expensive" compared to what?

At Drs. Foster & Smith's a 10ml bottle of Lantus costs the exact same price as 10ml bottle of ProZinc. And it doesn't go bad in 3 months! I've seen this "expensive" argument thrown around and I'm not understanding where it's coming from? I just posted the ProZinc Sources list in the sticky at the top of this forum. I've found it as low as $80 per bottle. One should be able to get ProZinc overnighted to ones doorstep [shipping and everything] for a MAX of $95/bottle. Or one might even be able to get their vet or local pharmacy [that dispenses pet meds] to PRICE MATCH the $80.

Sorry if I'm a little touchy on the subject. :smile: It's just that this board can have a bit of an echo chamber effect - one person says it's "expensive" then all of a sudden everyone is claiming ProZinc is expensive [perhaps, for some, with the motivation to get people to look to other insulins].

Vickie,
Please keep us updated on your progress.
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I didn't know you could get ProZinc that cheaply. I paid $128 at the vet and nearly swooned. At $95, you're right. Thank you for correcting my misconception!
 
A friend of mine (in private practice), sold it to me at $87. His cost was $80 and the $7 was a dispensing fee. He didn't charge me a markup like he would for clients. I think the customary markup is 10-20% (at least that's what they taught us in vet school). So: $80+dispensing fee (ranges from $5-$10)+ 10-20% = ~$94-$108. I wouldn't pay more than $108.
 
I used to pay $25 for a vial of Vetsulin. So compared to Vetsulin, PZIR is expensive.

I think shelters can sometimes get a deal on food and medicine. If I was willing to feed to Science Diet, I could get it very cheap.

Vet markup for supplies around here seems to be about 50%.
 
Please keep in mind that while the upfront cost is steep, you can use the insulin to the end of the vial. One vial would last Lucy for 5-6 months making the unit cost of PZI cheaper than Lantus and about the same as I pay for Levemir. Only Vetsulin or NPH is cheaper.
 
Gator & H said:
Donna & Buddha said:
I used to pay $25 for a vial of Vetsulin. So compared to Vetsulin, PZIR is expensive.
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Just being devil's advocate :twisted: , but why are you using ProZinc now? ;-)
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If I don't get Buddha regulated soon I'll be needing some Proz - ac myself soon! Hmm, is that a $4 generic now?

I have 3 small vials of Vetsulin in my fridge. I'm prepared for anything.
 
MicheleS said:
Donna & Buddha said:
Vet markup for supplies around here seems to be about 50%.
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You must be KIDDING!!! wow.
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Well, I might be misremembering, but it seems like some joint supplements and incontinence medicine my old dog took were horribly overpriced at the vets ...

OK, Buddha's last uti, I paid $4/tab for 21 22.7mg Orbax tablets at the vet's office and googling it today, I could order the same online from several vendors for under $2 a tablet.
 
The markup is probably at least 100% in my neighborhood. For real. Some thing like $6 for an IV set and $8 for a mirtazapine pill. Crazy. Luckily I don't let them sell me much. And this is from one of the cheaper vets in my area!

They really get me on the blood tests - VCA has the lockdown on Antec and all the rest are Idexx which seems to be big $$. $130 for blood chem & CBC w/T4. I think about $230 for a GI panel. $52 for urinealysis [+$25 Ultra Sound guided fee]. nutzo. HA and I love this one - $38 to take his BG once on their OneTouch Ultra!

My theory is that vets have been spending a little too much time at the business development seminars and not enough time at the diabetes seminars at their conferences. Things have gotten a little crazy recently.

I've thought about a business model for offering low cost lab tests for animals. For humans one can order blood test online then go straight to the lab. Not so for animals. The low cost shot clinics at pet stores would be an ideal distribution point [sales point]. I'm not sure why those companies that administer the low cost shot clinics don't also offer blood tests too. Seems like there's an opportunity to disintermediate these darn vets!
 
I can see a high markup WRT services. Vet school is $$. When you get a CBC/chem, you are paying for the venipuncture, the test, and the interpretation. So... testing is a place where you cost recover for vet school, the machines to do the test, and technician salary. However, drugs are another story. The client has already paid for your advice (the exam and test fees) and expertise. All that needs to be cost recovered in the pharmacy is technician salary (dispensing fee) and shipping/packaging (10-20%)... at least that was what I was taught. But, it has been a looooong time since I attended practice-building seminars. I spent my last CE learning about bunnies so what so I know?!
 
MicheleS said:
But, it has been a looooong time since I attended practice-building seminars.
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Times have changed. Now they just tell the vets to have their "girls" call around to the other local vets and find out what they are charging. Prices have nothing to do with reality.

Here's some interesting reading specific to drug pricing strategies [a la 2009]:
http://wvc.omnibooksonline.com/data/pap ... 9_V652.pdf
By far, the largest and most common mark-up of prescription drugs was 100% or 2 times cost. Overall this was 49% with a slightly higher amount in the NW. The second highest group was almost 27% at 150% or 2.5 times cost. There were slightly more in this group in the SW. The next largest group was “other” with a wide variety of individual methods. All the other choices averaged 5% or less.
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Here's the TOC for WVC 2009 - lots of reading on the business side of things.
http://wvc.omnibooksonline.com/data/09_toc.htm
Makes my stomach churn a bit when I read this stuff. I can only take it so long. What happened to the days of having a good ol' country vet one could take their animal to?

My point is that the vets [and yes schools] have gotten greedy and they've created ample room for players to figure out lower cost delivery mechanisms. And I'll be happy to see it when it happens. Kind of like record companies and video rental stores, their time is up. FDMB is a great example of the disruptive forces at work on vets who [unfortunately must] spend too much money on an education that often teaches outdated modalities.

Don't get me wrong, I do think vets are entitled to make money. If I could ever find a good one I'd be more than happy to pay 'em on a handsome hourly for their time maybe like the human model for concierge medicine.
 
Re insulin costs Vetsulin vs. PZI, the difference there is that Vetsulin you are only supposed to use for a month or two (BID shooting) as it degrades each time you roll the vial, vs. PZI you can use to the last drop. Of course it depends on what dosage your cat is on as to how they compare. For Bix, I think the costs over about 8 months on each insulin have come out fairly even. Kind of suspicious that, in terms of how the manufacturers have priced the two insulins. Seems like a funny coincidence that the one is cheaper and hmmmm, you have to replace it frequently. Is there a "I'm feeling cynical?" smiley? I guess twisted evil will have to do, hehe :twisted:

[ETA: California vet costs are shocking, shocking, shocking :shock: . When I moved out here from the DC area about 5 years ago, across the board my vet costs doubled overnight, from exams, to bloodwork, to specialists.]
 
Vickie and Dusty said:
That is such good news! I have decided to switch to Prozinc when my PZI runs out ---fingers crossed
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We just switched over from Vetsulin 6 days ago, and so far, so GREAT!!!! SugarKitty is doin' wunnerful!!! Let's all hope for the best for our babies with the new ProZinc!
 
Gator & H said:
Donna & Buddha said:
I used to pay $25 for a vial of Vetsulin. So compared to Vetsulin, PZIR is expensive.
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Just being devil's advocate :twisted: , but why are you using ProZinc now? ;-)
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Back in November, the manufacturers of Vetsulin found it to be inconsistent over time and questionable for treatment...The website strongly encouraged all veterinarians using it to start switching over to another insulin...ProZinc is a human insulin that just came into the big picture in the past couple of months, we have switched to it this week...So far it seems terrific for my little SugarKitty...Keeping fingers crossed here! dancing_cat
 
Very good news Terry - so glad to hear things are going good.

Do you have a spread sheet?

We are in need of folks to show the results of ProZinc. Please keep us posted of your progress.

How many units of Vetsulin were you on and how many units of ProZinc are you dosing now?
 
Gator & H said:
by Gator & H » Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:29 am
Very good news Terry - so glad to hear things are going good.

Do you have a spread sheet?

We are in need of folks to show the results of ProZinc. Please keep us posted of your progress.

How many units of Vetsulin were you on and how many units of ProZinc are you dosing now?
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I keep my own spreadsheet log on my desk, not online here, sorry....Puttzer was up and down the past few months on 'questionable' Vetsulin, 2BID, started him on ProZinc at 2U and just raised his dose yesterday to 3U as he is holding about 380bg...I home-test and am able to adjust accordingly, testing about every 3 days...He eats only canned FF gourmet, low carbs, no dry food in his diet..He is doing great for an 18 lb, 8 year old male...Thank you for asking, and yes, I will keep posting my results, say once a week? How is that?
 
Gator and H...(We are in need of folks to show the results of ProZinc. Please keep us posted of your progress).

Will someone be posting a special Topic for this?
 
Day 4 of switch from Vetsulin to ProZinc -

2 U BID until this morning as Puttz was running high 300's for the past three days. I think the ProZinc finally kicked in today, Day 4.

AM - 3U (no bg reading)
+ 3.5 BG 90 (0 units)
+ 5 BG 142 (0 Units)

Next reading will be at +12

What I read in the brochure is that the field study control was considered adequate if the glucose nadir from a 9 hour blood glucose curve was between 80 and 150 mg/dl. I personally think Puttz showed signs of being too low at the 90 BG reading. I will most likely reduce to 2.5 BID and retest him in 3 days.
 
Terry -- Buddha is on PZIR and he has had low bg at +3 on several occasions, usually after an unusually low ps. (I'm still working on getting him regulated and finding his proper dose.) Anyway, I just share that because its possible that before Puttz's +3.5 90 he was lower and is on the rebound. Something to consider. Also, because occasionally and unexpectedly Buddha is low at ps and can go lower quickly after his shot, I have learned to always test before a shot. Unfortunately, I haven't figured out yet how much insulin to give him when his bg is lower than expected, but I do know that I need to monitor him more closely that day.

I don't know that any other cat here has had reactions like Buddha's, but I think most everyone else has their cat under better control.
 
Yes Donna is right, you do need to be testing before every shot. I'm not convinced though that was rebound, IMHO it seems more like a sharp drop from too much insulin.

How are you feeding? Feeding on Vetsulin is different than on ProZinc, with PZI free feeding is best - not times feeding like is often done with Vetsulin.

If you can get your spread sheet going it would be a big help. Instructions can be found in the tech support forum for this:
http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=16
 
Thank you everyone, I will get a spreadsheet up this weekend...By the way, I think 3U BID the past 24 hours was indeed too much, and Puttz did go too low, and possibly did rebound...His +11 came in at 489! I reduced his dose to 2.5U and will retest AMPS...He is free feeding, and I am still up against the uncertain, questionable Vetsulin he had been using for the past three months, and I am now working with a brand new, fresh, ProZinc...It is a marathon sometimes, isn't it?
 
Awesome work Terry and getting the spread sheet going! That will really help.

Maybe I was wrong about the rebound - I'm not doing well at getting things right lately it seems. :oops:

Are you guys on low carb wet food only at this point per Janet & Binky's tables?
http://binkyspage.tripod.com/canfood.html

You are definitely going to want to get those AMPS & PMPS numbers all the time. Those number are going to be how you will know how much insulin to give. Also it looks like a couple "2"s that were probably the dose ended up in your PMPS.

Again excellent work on the spread sheet! The only other tasks I would have for you at this point would be to potentially create a profile which will help others here help you better. Instructions for that can be found here:
http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=531

And please do consider the U-100 syringes.

And if you post again, please do make a new topic so you will get noticed. Make sure to make the subject noticeable and descriptive something like "ProZinc from Vetsulin - eyeballs needed"
 
Gator and H, thank you for helping me get noticed with the new insulin! I will get a profile started (sheesh, the SS had me working up a sweat), and will keep updating...Yes, Puttz has been on FF canned from the list for almost two years, no dry food...And yes, thank you for noticing the '2's that were Units, not BG numbers...fixed.
Thanks again, I will start a new topic when I get back online with more info...Hugs to your SugarKitty, also
 
Terry and Puttz said:
Back in November, the manufacturers of Vetsulin found it to be inconsistent over time and questionable for treatment...The website strongly encouraged all veterinarians using it to start switching over to another insulin...ProZinc is a human insulin that just came into the big picture in the past couple of months, we have switched to it this week...So far it seems terrific for my little SugarKitty...Keeping fingers crossed here! dancing_cat
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I am so glad that ProZinc seems to be working well for Puttz. Gator's right, we do need success stories, or at least lots of data, to show people so more of them will get on the ProZinc wagon and see how well it works for our little furbabies. :)

Just for accuracy's sake, I do have to point out that ProZinc is not a human insulin. It was made for kitties, actually, the only one on the market which was. (From the ProZinc website found here: http://www.prozinc.us/ ) That is perhaps another of its selling points, since there aren't any others specifically formulated for kitties. :)
 
I have started a new topic for ProZinc New Users....Hopefully, we can start comparing notes together! Thanks to all on this forum...T and P
 
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