Cosmo - 30 lbs- questions

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shore1709

Member Since 2013
Cosmo is just 6 yrs old, part maine coon and weighs 30 lbs. (down from 38lbs 2 yrs ago) What alerted us to his problem was he started peeing on the floor and drinking more water... off to the vet last nite ! Luckily he peed in the carrier, and the vet determined
it was diabetes (very high on the stick) but luckily no ketones at all were present. He is now on insulin 5mg 2x a day.... my question is... has anyone experienced their cat having a hard time walking? His back legs are not right, and I hoping with proper care he will feel better soon. The vet said it takes a week, and we should see a great improvemnt. Luckily he has been eating a Royal Canin low carb food for the last 2 years. Probably saved him from high ketones! :oops:
 
Yes, diabetic cats can have issues with their back legs. The diabetes and subsequent high glucose levels causes nerve damage. It's called diabetic neuropathy. People get it too. getting the BG's under control and some methylcobalamin can help with the neuropathy. Also, some additional weight loss can help immensely.

My foster cat Wink had horrible diabetic neuropathy. Walking on his hocks, could not jump or climb up more than 1 foot, could not walk more than 3-5 steps without stopping to rest, wouldn't/couldn't play. Neuropathy is painful but the nerve damage can be healed with improved blood glucose levels. Wink jumps everywhere now, no problem, plays and runs and chases my other 2 cats. You can hardly tell he has the diabetic neuropathy, mostly walks up on his tiptoes now like a normal cat.

Get a really low litter box so it is easier for him to climb in and out. Or cut the opening down in a box you already have. My box is only about 3-4 inches off the floor and easy for not so mobile cats to get in and out of.

Where does your cat fall on this body condition score chart?

Which specific Royal Canin food is Cosmo eating? dry, wet?

Being male and overweight are two contributing factors to insulin resistance in cats.

Which insulin? Hopefully, you mean 5 units, not milligrams (mg).
 
Thanks for the info... after having cats for 30 yrs this is the first one that has diabetes! The doctor prescribed the dosage for him.... we hve the small needles, and it has numbers form 0-25... he prescribed "5" 2x a day.
Is it ok to give right after his meal?
 
Welcome to the group. would you mind answering a few questions before I answer yours?

He is now on insulin 5mg 2x a day....
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What kind of insulin are you using? Oral or injection? We strongly recommend using injection insulin only for cats as the oral insulins are harder on the cat's system and can create kidney issues among other problems.

There are three types of injectible insulin available that are good for cats. Lantus, Levimer or Prozinc. They are gentle insulin and given twice (BID) per day in 12 hour increments. Please read up on the insulins available, here is a link to the Insulin Support Groups:

Insulin Support Groups

And 5mg sounds like a pretty high starting dose. We always recommend starting with a lose dose and slowly with home testing over time adjust the dose. Since we recommend injectible insulin we suggest a starting dose of 0.5 unit or even 1.0 unit.

Luckily he has been eating a Royal Canin low carb food for the last 2 years.
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Is this a dry or wet cat food?

ALL cats, and especially those with diabetes, do best on a species appropriate diet that is high in protein and low in carbs. Dry food DOES NOT fit that bill and prescription food, even canned, just really isn't that great as far as quality. Most here on FDMB feed low carb/high protein canned, raw bought from a pet store or they make there own.

Here is a link to a site by a vet "Dr. Lisa DVM" ... who also posts on this board from time to time ... http://www.catinfo.org

If you look on the right side of her site, she has a food comparison chart to help you figure out what food you want to get based on the carb %.

You want to keep the carb % below 10% and around 7% is great. (Personally, I stay between 0-6% carbs.)

While on her site, you can read about in-depth info. on nutrition and how to make raw food, etc.

Here is another link that will give more information about food/nutrition

Nutrition/food info

The good thing with feeding your diabetic cat this way, is that it is ALSO good for any non-diabetic cat too. All your cats can safely eat the same food without worry and it may save you some costs and headaches of having to do separate feedings and keeping track of what they are eating.

has anyone experienced their cat having a hard time walking? His back legs are not right, and I hoping with proper care he will feel better soon.
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This very possibly sounds like diabetic neuropathy. The way to help this, is by getting the cat regulated on proper insulin and giving the cat Methylcobalamin B12 - this comes in pill or capsule form. You can by pet specific or human type.

If you buy pet specific, zobaline is the brand to purchase - you can buy it directly from the manufacturer - http://www.ilifelink.com/zobaline-for_d ... blets.html

Or look for it elsewhere online.

If you buy a human version - be sure it only contains the methylcobalamin B12, and doesn't contain any sugar, xylitol or other sugar type ingredients.

This is a link to the one that I used for Maui: http://www.vitacost.com/vitacost-vitami ... 0-capsules

You can easily mix it into the food and you want to give 3-5 mg once a day. You can give twice if you like, however, whatever the cat's body cannot absorb, he will pee it out, which is why once a day is suggested.

Some more questions, did the vet discuss home testing with you?

It is impossible to convey the value of testing your cat's BG (blood glucose) level at home. Some vets will "suggest" this, but most won't even mention it. They will send you home with insulin and an amount to shoot and maybe some instructions about hypoglycemia (blood sugar dropping to a dangerously low level).

Well, the thing is, human diabetics don't EVER give themselves insulin without checking there BG to make sure it is safe to do so, so why shouldn't it be the same for our kitties. Here on FDMB it is. You will notice that the vast majority of people here test their cat's BG at least 2x/day (before giving each shot to make sure the level is safe enough) and periodically at other times to see how the cat is responding to the current dose. We use a human glucometer, test strips and lancets - which are all very readily available and easy to use.

Our kitties get lots of love and treats for "putting up" with this and most of them actually come out to be tested on their own 'cause they want those treats . Here is a collection of great links that "Carolyn and Spot" pulled together about hometesting. See what you think ... it truly is the best way to not only keep Your cat safe but also really get a handle on this disease and help him to live a healthy life with FD (feline diabetes).
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Home testing Links


Last question for now, I promise. How did the vet determine that your cat is diabetic? Just with the pee stick test? Or did the vet do a blood test - BG test, fructosamine test maybe?
 
I see that we posted at the same time.

What type of insulin are you using? What kind of syringes do you have - do they say U-100 (with orange cap) or U-40 (with red cap) on the syringe or packaging?

If you are giving 5 units to start with - that is considered a very high starting dose and not one that we would ever suggest starting out with. How did the vet determine this dose?
 
Thank you ... you are a wealth of info! On Friday his bloodwork was perfect EXCEPT for his glucose. It was
near 400! The vet told us this could be elevated dur to stress, but needs a urine sample. Easier said then done.
Finely I was ablde to obtain it when he peed on the floor on Sat nite, but by Monday of course the sample was
no good. OK, so i call the Vet to get him in there, as I was so concerned he started drinking and urinating too much.
Went in last nite, and he peed in the carrier (thank God)... the urine was being sent out to see if there were any
infections, but the vet did a strip test, and he was dark pruple. As I stated before, no Ketones were present.
My head is still reeling from all this. I dont know the name of the insulin (Injection), as I am @ work but the needles have orange tops and are disposable. Realize he is a very big cat and I believe the vet wants to get the sugar down. Again, I have never used needles before, and all I know is he did the calculations and determined he need "5" on the needle line.
He is on Prescription Satiety food, and the vet said it was ok to stay on right now. I will absolutely purchase the methylcobalamin today!
 
Darn,

I had a huge response typed in and hit delete instead of send... darn, darn darn.

OK, I'm going to give a shorter response :lol:

Please take a look at your syringes when you get home and tell us what they look like: (scroll to bottom of link for pics)

http://www.bd.com/us/diabetes/hcp/main. ... 7&id=63631

It sounds like the vet based the dose on the cat's weight and while that is one way to do it, 5 units in my opinion is a high starting dose.

And in order to know if it is safe to give insulin, you need to home test. Are you willing to learn? We can help you.

Since you are going shopping for the B12, add to your shopping list the following:


heres a shopping list below and some home testing tips. https://docs.google.com/document/d/13c_ ... PPhEag/pub

let us know how you get on with the testing - some cats bleed better than others.

1. Meter ie Walmart Relion Confirm or Micro.
2. Matching strips
3. Lancets - little sticks to poke the ear to get blood . new members usually start with a larger gauge lancet such as 28g or 29g until the ear learns to bleed. Optional - lancing tool.
4. Cotton balls to stem the blood
5. Neosporin or Polysporin ointment with pain relief to heal the wound
6. Mini flashlight (optional) - useful to help see the ear veins in dark cats, and to press against
7. Ketone urine test strips ie ketodiastix - Important to check ketones when blood is high
8. Treats for the cat - like freeze dried chicken
9. Karo syrup/corn syrup or honey if you dont have it at home - for hypo emergencies to bring blood sugar up fast
10. A couple of cans of fancy feast gravy lovers or other high carb gravy food- for hypo emergencies to bring blood sugar up fast


Regarding meters - the walmart relion are the least expensive meters and strips to get. You can get other meters - just don't buy any with TRU in the name or Freestyle brand with butterfly strips - members have had problems with these meters when testing on cats.

I looked up the food you are using and the ingredients are:

Chicken Meal, Powdered Cellulose, Tapioca, Wheat, Wheat Gluten, Corn Gluten Meal, Natural Flavour, Chicken Fat, Chicory Pulp, Potassium Chloride, Calcium Sulphate, Monosodium Phosphate, Fish Oil, Ground Psyllium Husk, Monocalcium Phosphate, Choline Chloride, Taurine, Vitamins (DL-Alpha-Tocopherol [Source of Vitamin E], L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate [Source of Vitamin C], Niacin, Biotin, Riboflavin [Vitamin B2], D-Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride [Vitamin B6], Vitamin A Acetate, Thiamine Mononitrate [Vitamin B1], Folic Acid, Vitamin B12 Supplement and Vitamin D3 Supplement), Marigold Extract (Source of Lutein), Glucosamine Hydrochloride, L-Carnitine and Trace Minerals (Zinc Oxide, Ferrous Sulphate, Copper Sulphate, Manganous Oxide, Zinc Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Calcium Iodate and Sodium Selenite). Naturally Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols, Rosemary Extract and Citric Acid.

The bold ingredients are actually carbs and not something we recommend feeding a diabetic cat and one that you want to lose weight. You want to think of the atkins approach for a cat - high protein, low to no carb food. I don't believe the Royal Canin meets that criteria - not to mention it's a dry food product and well read Dr. Lisa's site about that.

I can't recall what else I initially wrote, so I'll leave it at this. Oh tell us where you live - city, state or province, country as we may have members nearby who can help in person.
 
I also noticed the 911 icon on your original post. We typically reserve that icon for emergencies - such as a cat with ketones, DKA, Hypo, convulsions, etc.

Would you mind removing it from your original post. Also note that the candle and rainbow icons are used for when a cat has died. So, you won't want to use those either.

I know, just a bit of lingo here, soon you will get the hang of it, now that you found us!
 
Make sure the methylcobalamin has no sugars in it or xylitol. Not good for cats.

A 30 pound cat may require a higher starting dose.

Did you mean the vet was able to catch Cosmo in the act of peeing while he was in his cat carrier and got a free catch sample? Or was it collected from the bottom of the carrier? Pee collected from the cat carrier is likely to be contaminated with bacteria from the carrier. Not a very good way to test the urine for infectious agents. Even free catch samples are more likely to be contaminated with exterior bacteria.

When you get home, if you could look at the insulin vial you were given and let us know what it says, we would appreciate that info.

He is on Prescription Satiety food,
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I see that Royal Canin Satiety food is for obese/overweight cats. Is that the reason your vet has you feeding that food? Does your cat like wet/canned food?
 
You posted that the urine on the test strip was a "dark purple". Are you correct in that because if so, dark purple only shows up on a strip that tests urine for not only glucose but also ketones? Glucose shows up from light green to dark brown. Ketones show up from a pale color all the way to a dark purple. If that vet read it right, dark purple showed up on a KetoDiastix or full test strips that reads a lot of other things from the urine, then your kitty has major ketones. Please check with the vet or better yet, buy some KetoDiastix urine testing strips at a pharmacy today and try and catch him urinating.

http://www.chesvetmobile.com/Files/Urine Glucose.pdf
 
Wow! Thanks for letting us know the correct color there on the urine/ketone test strips. We were starting to get worried because ketones can be very serious and life threatening to your cat. Now we can breathe a sigh of relief.
 
Sorry, I M JUST SO NEW TO THIS WHOLE THING! My vet gave me this website to checkout, and will speak to him tonight concerning the food Cosmo eats.
 
Hey, we are glad that your vet sent you here.

The fact is that most vets are not knowledgeable about nutrition and pets. When in vet school, I believe it's just one class they take on the subject and their knowledge comes from the pet food companies that visit and sell them the expensive prescription/specialty food. They really don't know.

And many of us, see the TV commercials and believe what is said and buy the product thinking we are doing something good for our pet.

It's not until something like diabetes happen that one goes on the search and gets the rude awakening that everything you were told and thought you knew, was totally wrong.

This is what happened to me. After being here, seeing first hand the difference the food makes to my cats, I make sure that I read the ingredients and understand what I'm feeding them. I also don't discuss food with my vets as they still think that dry food is good to use and prescription even better.

And don't believe the nonsense that eating dry food is good for their teeth. It would be the same as telling you that eating potato chips is good for your teeth and better than brushing them.

Don't get upset, you didn't know, but now that you are here, you will learn, we will get you to "drink the koolaide" and you will be amazed at the changes in Cosmo and your other pets (if you have others) as a result of changing food. :lol:

The Methylcolbamin B12 will help with the walking issues. It's not an overnight fix, so don't expect immediate results. Depending on the severity of the neuropathy will determine how much he will recover from it. Not all cats recover 100%. Just want you to be optimistic but realistic.
 
You gave us Cosmo's name but you did not introduce yourself. What is your name?

I'm Deb and that tuxie pictured over on the right is my extra sweet kitty Wink Wink Nudge Nudge. I usually just call him Wink unless he is being pushy or crabby then he gets called Nudge or Nudgie.

It's ok to be new. We were all in the same place you are now, new and trying to learn about feline diabetes.

I always suggest deep breathing exercises. Yes it sounds hokey, but if you can relax yourself a little bit, then Cosmo will be more relaxed too. Diabetes is a very treatable disease and cats can live long healthy lives with diabetes.

This is a good post to read. A message from your cat

Sorry if we have overwhelmed you with information. We don't mean to, but sometimes we get really enthusiastic about welcoming someone new or we are concerned about something we see in your post and give new members too much information.
 
shore1709 said:
Sorry, I M JUST SO NEW TO THIS WHOLE THING! My vet gave me this website to checkout, and will speak to him tonight concerning the food Cosmo eats.
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I think it's fantastic that your vet gave you a link to this site! I hope that indicates he thinks along the same lines as we think. Ask him if he based the starting dose on Cosmo's weight per the AAHA guidelines, and what he feels Cosmo's ideal weight should be. 5 units is pretty high to start, but if you can find out his logic, it might help us make more sense out of it.
 
shore1709 said:
... On Friday his bloodwork was perfect EXCEPT for his glucose. It was near 400! ...
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Vet stress may raise glucose 100-180 or so mg/dL.
A change from a high carb diet to a low carb diet may reduce the glucose 100 mg/dL or more.
... Which means if you can get on low carb food and test at home, you might see numbers closer to normal ones for cats.

You might find the following helpful, especially if you start home testing (which we strongly encourage, to keep your cat safe)

Here are some glucose reference ranges used for decision making using glucometers. Human glucometer numbers are given first. Numbers in parentheses are for non-US meters. Numbers in curly braces are estimates for an AlphaTrak.

< 40 mg/dL (2.2 mmol/L) {< 70 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- Treat as if HYPO if on insulin
- At nadir (lowest point between shots) in a long term diabetic (more than a year), may earn a reduction.

< 50 mg/dL (2.8 mmol/L) {< 80 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- If before nadir, steer with food, ie, give modest amounts of medium carb food to keep from going below 50 (2.8).
- At nadir, often indicates dose reduction is earned.

50 - 130 mg/dL (2.8 - 7.2 mmol/L) {80 - 160 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- On insulin - great control when following a tight regulation protocol.
- Off insulin - normal numbers. (May even go as low as the upper 30s (1.7 mmol/L){60s for an AlphaTrak}; if not on insulin, this can be safe.

> 150 mg/dL (8.3 mmol/L) {> 180 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- At nadir, indicates a dose increase may be needed when following a tight regulation protocol.

200 mg/dL (11.1 mmol/L) {230 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- no shot level for beginners; may slowly reduce to 150 mg/dL (8.3 mmol/L) {180 mg/dL} for long-acting insulins (Lantus, Levemir, and ProZinc) as data collection shows it is safe

180 - 280 mg/dL (10 - 15.6 mmol/L) {may be 210 - 310 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- Any time - The renal threshold (depending on data source and cat's renal function) where glucose spills into the urine.
- Test for ketones, glucose is too high.

>= 280 mg/dL (15.6 mmol/L) {may be >=310 mf/dL for an AlphaTrak}, if for most of the cycle between shots
- Uncontrolled diabetes and thus at risk for diabetic ketoacidosis and hepatic lipidosis
- Follow your insulin protocol for dose adjustments
- Test for ketones; if more than a trace level of ketones, go to vet ASAP.
 
Green is still better because dark purple means he is dealing with major ketones which require hospitalization.....cannot be dealt with at home and can become life threatening in no time.
 
Hey there

How are things going? What did the vet say about the food?

And did I miss what kind of insulin you are using?

Wendy
 
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