Concerned about continuous high numbers

[Pumpkinhead Jack]

Hey everybody,

It's been a struggle to do home glucose testing because I'm not around at all during the week to help my parents test our cat and I'm only sometimes around on the weekends. He's on ProZinc, 2.5 units. We tried and tried to get a reading this morning before his shot but it just wasn't happening so we tried again 3 hours after the shot with success. He was at 435. It still seems very high, and he's still peeing a lot. What concerns me is that he looks smaller so I'm worried he's losing weight from the diabetes, but it's hard to tell because he's had his diet changed to almost all canned food with little to no carbs. The vet called and said to do 3 units tonight, but I'm also worried that since his BG numbers have never read below 420 that he's at higher risk for having ketoacidosis. I'm going to see if I can fill a box with some sand and get a pee sample tomorrow or even tonight and test with the ketostix we got.

 

[Pumpkinhead Jack]

Hey everybody,

It's been a struggle to do home glucose testing because I'm not around at all during the week to help my parents test our cat and I'm only sometimes around on the weekends. He's on ProZinc, 2.5 units. We tried and tried to get a reading this morning before his shot but it just wasn't happening so we tried again 3 hours after the shot with success. He was at 435. It still seems very high, and he's still peeing a lot. What concerns me is that he looks smaller so I'm worried he's losing weight from the diabetes, but it's hard to tell because he's had his diet changed to almost all canned food with little to no carbs. The vet called and said to do 3 units tonight, but I'm also worried that since his BG numbers have never read below 420 that he's at higher risk for having ketoacidosis. I'm going to see if I can fill a box with some sand and get a pee sample tomorrow or even tonight and test with the ketostix we got.

Should I be really concerned? It's going to be taken care of either way but I just was wondering how much of an emergency you guys think it is

 

[Larry and Kitties]

If Jack is eating well and acting normally the likelyhood of DKA is remote. Howeer, it is a very good idea to test his urine with a urine test strip.

You said "his BG numbers have never read below 420 ". What were the specific BGs and whne were they taken with respect to the insulin shot. It would be very nice to get a BG right before shot time and then again at about 6 hours after the shot.
Yes with high BGs it is easy for a cat to lose weight since he is not processing the food well with the high BGs. How much are you feeding and how much does Jack weigh?

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

Changing his food to a low/no carb diet wouldn't cause him to lose weight...it's like the difference between eating 200 calories from potato chips or 200 calories from celery sticks....both are 200 calories but the celery sticks are a lot healthier and lower carb, so better for a diabetic (human)...but 200 calories are 200 calories either way

How much are you feeding? Until he's better regulated, he's going to need a LOT more food. Our diabetic kitties lose weight because they really are starving to death....without insulin, the nutrition he's eating can't get into the cells to "feed" them so they eat lots more to try to make up the difference. Think of insulin as a "key"....The key unlocks the door to the cells and let's the glucose in...without that "key", the glucose stays in the bloodstream and the cells starve.

400's are high, but without being able to get more tests in, there's no way to know if he's routinely in the 400's, or if he's dropping a lot lower and then "bouncing" high again. We've had cats here that went from 400 to 40 and back to 400 in a 12 hour cycle!

Yes, as long as he's running high, getting ketone tests in is a good idea, so get those when you can

What kind of problems are you having with testing? (other than not being home) Are your parents willing to learn how? If not, it's even more important for you to get tests in on the days you are home....A test every 2 hours for 12 hours or every 3 hours for 18 hours on the days you're home can really help tell what's going on inside his body

 

[Pumpkinhead Jack]

If Jack is eating well and acting normally the likelyhood of DKA is remote. Howeer, it is a very good idea to test his urine with a urine test strip.

You said "his BG numbers have never read below 420 ". What were the specific BGs and whne were they taken with respect to the insulin shot. It would be very nice to get a BG right before shot time and then again at about 6 hours after the shot.
Yes with high BGs it is easy for a cat to lose weight since he is not processing the food well with the high BGs. How much are you feeding and how much does Jack weigh?

The last time he went to the vet, in early August his BG was 472 before getting his morning shot. We gave him his shot as soon as we returned from the vet and upped it to 2.5 units like the vet said. on August 17 (about 2 weeks after his dose was increased to 2.5) we were able to get a reading 10 and a half hours later and that one was 456. He seems to be eating the same as he has since he started insulin, a little less ravenous than previously but he's still pretty hungry a lot. He also seems to be acting like he normally does, but I will make sure to keep an eye on him for any changes in behaviour or appetite. Right now he's getting 1/3 cup of DM prescription diet (comes out to about 200 calories) a day (1/6 cup twice a day) along with 1 can of FF Classics per day which is 92 cal per can. How many calories should he be getting? my dad weighed him this morning and he was 13 lbs. I read 20 cal per lb. but I realize that's for indoor cats that aren't diabetic. Does anyone have a similar way of figuring out how many calories to give a diabetic cat?

 

[Pumpkinhead Jack]

Changing his food to a low/no carb diet wouldn't cause him to lose weight...it's like the difference between eating 200 calories from potato chips or 200 calories from celery sticks....both are 200 calories but the celery sticks are a lot healthier and lower carb, so better for a diabetic (human)...but 200 calories are 200 calories either way

How much are you feeding? Until he's better regulated, he's going to need a LOT more food. Our diabetic kitties lose weight because they really are starving to death....without insulin, the nutrition he's eating can't get into the cells to "feed" them so they eat lots more to try to make up the difference. Think of insulin as a "key"....The key unlocks the door to the cells and let's the glucose in...without that "key", the glucose stays in the bloodstream and the cells starve.

400's are high, but without being able to get more tests in, there's no way to know if he's routinely in the 400's, or if he's dropping a lot lower and then "bouncing" high again. We've had cats here that went from 400 to 40 and back to 400 in a 12 hour cycle!

Yes, as long as he's running high, getting ketone tests in is a good idea, so get those when you can

What kind of problems are you having with testing? (other than not being home) Are your parents willing to learn how? If not, it's even more important for you to get tests in on the days you are home....A test every 2 hours for 12 hours or every 3 hours for 18 hours on the days you're home can really help tell what's going on inside his body

We have problems keeping him still to poke his ear for blood. We've tried doing it while giving him his favorite foods but he gets very skittish. We've worked on desensitizing him to the sound of the lancet near his ear while he eats and whenever we pet him. His veins aren't like any pictures of where to prick, they are closer to the tip of the ear, and not really near the edge on the side or upper side even. I'm thinking if we get familiar with where his veins are we should have an easier time. It's frustrating, but I want to keep trying because I want him to be healthy and happy.

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

You're really not supposed to aim for the veins....the edges of the ears will actually grow more capillaries the more they're poked! We call it "learning to bleed". If you continue poking, in a few weeks time (maybe less) you'll find it gets easier and easier to get the blood. I swear I could just look at China's ears now and they'd start bleeding....LOL

Also, a lot of us "freehand" instead of using the lancet device....sometimes it can be easier for you to control but it's something each person has to experiment with to find what works best for them and their cat.

Here's something I wrote up for another person that's helped others....hopefully it'll help you too!

It can be really helpful to establish a routine with testing. Pick one spot that you want your "testing spot" to be (I like the kitchen counter because it's got good light and it's at a good height....it also already blocked 2 escape routes due to the wall and the backsplash) It can be anywhere though...a rug on the floor, a table, a particular spot on the couch...wherever is good for you. Take him there as many times a day as you can and just give his ears a quick rub and then he gets a yummy (low carb) treat. Most cats aren't objecting so much with the poking..it's the fooling with their ears they don't like, but once they're desensitized to it and learn to associate a certain place with the treats, they usually start to come when they're called! Or even when they hear us opening the test kit!

You also have to remember...you're not poking him to hurt him...you're testing him to keep him safe and understand what's going on inside his body. There's just nothing better than truly understanding what's going on inside your kitty's body and with this disease, the more knowledge you have, the more power you have against it. The edges of the ears have very few pain receptors, so it really doesn't hurt them. Also, if you're nervous and tense, it's going to make your kitty nervous and tense too. As silly as it might seem, try singing! It forces you to use a different part of your brain!

It's also important to make sure his ear is warm. A small sock filled with a little rice and microwaved or a small pill bottle filled with warm water (check temp against your wrist like you would a baby bottle) works well

Finding the right "treat" will be a great help too! Freeze dried chicken, bonito flakes, little pieces of baked chicken...whatever low carb treat you can find that he really enjoys will help him to associate the testing with the treat! China's Achilles heel was baked chicken, so I'd bake a piece, chop it into bite sized pieces, put some in the refrigerator and freeze the rest to use as needed. It didn't take long for her to come any time I picked up the meter!

 

[ctmorris]

You all are amazing! Seriously - there is so much to learn about to truly manage this disease in a cat that can't "tell" you how they feel. Some day I hope to be as smart and capable as the rest of you. Thanks and keep the articles and education coming!

 

[Squalliesmom]

Right now he's getting 1/3 cup of DM prescription diet

Are you feeding him Proplan DM dry food? That's what my vet put my cat on, when he was first diagnosed. I thought I was doing the right thing by giving him "prescription" food until someone here pointed out to me that Proplan DM dry has a whopping 31% carbs! As soon as I weaned my guy off of the DM his BG numbers started to go down drastically. Just PLEASE don't change foods unless you do it slowly, and you MUST be home testing, and available to test frequently, otherwise you put you kitty at terrible risk for a hypoglycemic episode. I know this from personal experience; even having done everything properly my kitty went hypo and if I hadn't been home testing, and hadn't had the help and advice of the great folks here on FDMB, the situation could well have had a tragic outcome. I'm not trying to scare you, and I seriously hope I haven't, I just want to pass on information you will need!

 

[granadilla]

Something else that may help with testing: put a thin layer of Vaseline or Neosporin (the clear ointment not the white cream) on his ear before you warm up the ear. The Vaseline helps the blood bead up. My cat has dark ears and the blood spreads into her fur so it's hard to see but when I started using the Vaseline, I found I can get a nice drop of blood. (Welcome to the vampire club! )

 

[Sue and Oliver (GA)]

I am with everyone else. First get home testing down, then a switch to lower carb wet, maybe lowering the dose before you do that. The situation now is like a human diabetic eating donuts every meal and increasing the insulin to compensate. The numbers are going to be high.

You might try the kitty burrito. You wrap the cat in a towel with his head showing. The first few times, maybe give low carb treats while you are poking. Also, put a flashlight behind his ear so you can see the veins and the capillaries. You're aiming for the capillaries. The other thing that helped us was to have a big enough lancet. The one they use for humans (30-31 gauge) may not work for cats at first. 25-27 gauge may work better.

One you get home testing down, I'd suggest posting on the PZI forum and ask for dosing advice. I am not sure you should continue with the high dose while changing food, unless you can really monitor carefully.

We put together a protocol for ProZinc. It's in blue in my signature.

 

[BJM]

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