Changing from zero carb to low carb food

[JeanW]

Hey all, thanks for the wealth of information you all have shared. This place is a treasure trove for sure!!!

My kitty, PrettyGirl, is about 10 years old and is a great cat, a rescue I took in when she was about 6 months old. She's all white and so sweet. She was diagnosed with diabetes about 8 months ago.

I am trying to get her regulated and have been trying for 6+ months. I left 2 vets after scary and unpleasant experiences and now have 2 different vets that I mostly think are quite good. One is local at the vet clinic and one is at the pet hospital 3 hours away where I board her when needed. She is now on Lantus 1 unit twice daily. She is losing weight. I have an AlphaTrak tester and test her BG numbers at home which are quite high but are even higher at the vet - I think due to stress.

We've tried quite a few different foods with almost no success. All of the vets - previous and current - have wanted me to increase her insulin which I've reluctantly done. I did it initially with the very first vet and had some really frightening experiences with Pretty Girl when I knew so much less about it. And I did it again at the beginning of March after picking her up from boarding. After seeing how she acted on the increased insulin I put her back on 1 unit twice a day and she is better. I feed her twice a day and she is hungry a lot of the time.

ECID is different and I think Pretty Girl needs low carb food rather than zero carb food and that that may regulate her. She is currently eating Fancy Feast Ocean Whitefish & Tuna Feast. Per the cat food chart here, it has zero carbs. I want to switch her one of the Lotus foods (better quality food for sure) which has a higher amount of protein 59 vs 58 and 10-12 carbs per serving. It also has more calories 151 vs 82.

If you've read this far, Thank You. How do I go about making this change and make sure she doesn't have too much or too little insultin?

 

[Sharon14]

Welcome! If her numbers are high and she’s losing weight, it maybe that she does need more insulin. Since you are now testing, you can prevent or manage any low blood sugars and get PrettyGirl on the road to recovery. If she seems to feel bad on the higher dose it may be simply because she is not used to the lower numbers and her body needs time to adjust. As far as food a better quality food is great, but try to keep it below 10 carbs. If you would set up our spreadsheet that would help us to see what’s going on with PrettyGirl

 

[Veronica & Babu-chiri]

Hi , welcome!

As they've said the only way to know what's going on is with the tests, that's how you are going to know if the dose is okay or not it would help for the people in this forum to give you better opinions and suggestions if you could give us some more information about your kitty

What insulin is she on?
Does she have any other issues besides diabetes ?
Your test results (for this it would be great if you could put the in the spreadsheet we use this is the link with the instructions http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/ )

If she's hungry all the time is usually a sign that her diabetes is not regulated and if she's not overweight you could feed her more of the low carb food more than twice a day even let her free feed

 

[JeanW]

Hi , welcome!

As they've said the only way to know what's going on is with the tests, that's how you are going to know if the dose is okay or not it would help for the people in this forum to give you better opinions and suggestions if you could give us some more information about your kitty

What insulin is she on?
Does she have any other issues besides diabetes ?
Your test results (for this it would be great if you could put the in the spreadsheet we use this is the link with the instructions http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/ )

If she's hungry all the time is usually a sign that her diabetes is not regulated and if she's not overweight you could feed her more of the low carb food more than twice a day even let her free feed

Thank you. I will check into doing the spreadsheet.

She is on Lantus 1 unit twice a day.

She has had some pancreatitis but it doesn't seem to be an issue lately.

I think I need to feed her more than twice a day and will start doing that. She could stand to gain several pounds.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[Squalliesmom]

Love the pic! She is a Pretty Girl, indeed!

 

[Veronica & Babu-chiri]

Thank you. I will check into doing the spreadsheet.

She is on Lantus 1 unit twice a day.

She has had some pancreatitis but it doesn't seem to be an issue lately.

I think I need to feed her more than twice a day and will start doing that. She could stand to gain several pounds.

Thanks for your reply.

Good looking at her test results will help get an idea of what's going on with her in the meantime here's some information about Lantus that may help

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...the-basics-new-to-the-group-start-here.18139/

 

[Kris & Teasel]

Very pretty kitty!

 

[JeanW]

Thanks for your sweet comments about my pretty kitty.

 

[JeanW]

Pretty Girl is not eating enough in the last couple of days. She's definitely eating and sometimes really enthusiastically but not enough for me to give her insulin shot. I've been told by both my vet and the animal hospital that she needs to eat at least half a small can of food to give her insulin. She is not eating that much and so she hasn't had a shot in a couple days.

I've tried the Fancy Feast classic she's eaten for quite a while, Rachel Ray Nutrish chicken, and a very tiny amount of dry food. Her BG a couple of hours ago was 444. She sometimes has bouts of pancreatitis and the vet says nausea usually goes with that. She clearly doesn't feel too good but is eating and drinking water.

Thoughts, suggestions, ideas? Is it better to get her eating something/anything halfway decent so I can give her a shot?

 

[Kris & Teasel]

Most of us would say that as long as she eats a few teaspoons of food you can give her shot. Lantus is slow in onset so you have 2-3 hours afterward for her to graze or for you to gently coax her to eat a bit more. With no insulin and high BG she’s at risk of developing ketones.

 

[JeanW]

Most of us would say that as long as she eats a few teaspoons of food you can give her shot. Lantus is slow in onset so you have 2-3 hours afterward for her to graze or for you to gently coax her to eat a bit more. With no insulin and high BG she’s at risk of developing ketones.

Thank you. I suspect she has maybe had ketones before or multiple times as her BG has remained high in spite of a lot of treatment and increased insulin over the last 8 months. I didn't know enough about ketones to ask and none of my vets has mentioned it to me. I will go today and buy a tester.

Due to eating so little she hasn't had a shot in going on 3 days. Do I need to worry about giving her a Lantus shot again after this amount of time? Or worry only about not giving it to her?

 

[Kris & Teasel]

Thank you. I suspect she has maybe had ketones before or multiple times as her BG has remained high in spite of a lot of treatment and increased insulin over the last 8 months. I didn't know enough about ketones to ask and none of my vets has mentioned it to me. I will go today and buy a tester.

Due to eating so little she hasn't had a shot in going on 3 days. Do I need to worry about giving her a Lantus shot again after this amount of time? Or worry only about not giving it to her?

I'd worry about not giving it to her.

Here's my new member's "info handout". Might be helpful. Ask a lot of questions!
______________________________________________________________________________________________

Here's the basic testing routine we recommend:

1. test every day AM and PM before feeding and injecting (no food at least 2 hours before) to see if the planned dose is safe
2. test at least once near mid cycle or at bedtime daily to see how low the BG goes
3. do extra tests on days off to fill in the response picture
4. if indicated by consistently high numbers on your spreadsheet, increase the dose by no more than 0.25 u at a time so you don't accidentally go right past a good dose
5. post here for advice whenever you're confused or unsure of what to do.

.................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Here's an explanation of what we call "bouncing". It explains why a kitty's BG can go from low to sky high:

1. BG goes low OR lower than usual OR drops too quickly.
2. Kitty's body panics and thinks there's danger (OMG! My BG is too low!).
3. Complex physiologic processes take glycogen stored in the liver (I think of it as "bounce fuel"), convert it to glucose and dump it into the bloodstream to counteract the perceived dangerously low BG.
4. These processes go into overdrive in kitties who are bounce prone and keep the BG propped up varying lengths of time (AKA bouncing).
5. Bounce prone kitty repeats this until his body learns that healthy low numbers are safe. Some kitties are slow learners.
6. Too high a dose of insulin can keep them bouncing over and over until the " bounce fuel" runs out and they crash - ie., have a hypo episode. That's why we worry so much about kitties that have had too high a starting dose prescribed by the vet and the owner isn't home testing.

.................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Here are some tips on how to do urine ketone testing (VERY important if BG is high and kitty isn't eating well!):

• put the end of the test strip right in his urine stream as he's peeing
• slip a shallow, long handled spoon under his backside to catch a little pee - you don't need much
• put a double layer of plastic wrap over his favourite part of the litter box and poke some depressions in it too catch pee.

Most test strips have to be dipped and allowed to develop for 15 seconds before viewing the colour change in very good light.

 

[JanetNJ]

You are increasing her chances of developing ketones by not giving her insulin. No food +high bg=ketones.

 

[JeanW]

She is eating somewhat better today - 1/2 can of Fancy Feast Classics this morning so I gave her the 1 unit Lantus shot.

Her BG was at 398 and went down to 348 two hours later - no food in between. One half can of Fancy Feast is very few calories. Lately she is free feeding - a very tiny bit of dry food along with more Fancy Feast . I will take another BG reading before feeding her tonight.

I just read a long thread about ketoacidosis and got the wits scared out of me. Someone help talk me off the ledge please. I'm leaving the house in a few minutes to get the testing stuff for ketones. There are no vets open here on Sunday and the nearest 24 hour ER vet is 3 hours away.

 

[JanetNJ]

She is eating somewhat better today - 1/2 can of Fancy Feast Classics this morning so I gave her the 1 unit Lantus shot.

Her BG was at 398 and went down to 348 two hours later - no food in between. One half can of Fancy Feast is very few calories. Lately she is free feeding - a very tiny bit of dry food along with more Fancy Feast . I will take another BG reading before feeding her tonight.

I just read a long thread about ketoacidosis and got the wits scared out of me. Someone help talk me off the ledge please. I'm leaving the house in a few minutes to get the testing stuff for ketones. There are no vets open here on Sunday and the nearest 24 hour ER vet is 3 hours away.

While you're trying to just encourage her to eat giving the dry is ok, but ultimately you want to eliminate that dry.

 

[JanetNJ]

She is eating somewhat better today - 1/2 can of Fancy Feast Classics this morning so I gave her the 1 unit Lantus shot.

Her BG was at 398 and went down to 348 two hours later - no food in between. One half can of Fancy Feast is very few calories. Lately she is free feeding - a very tiny bit of dry food along with more Fancy Feast . I will take another BG reading before feeding her tonight.

I just read a long thread about ketoacidosis and got the wits scared out of me. Someone help talk me off the ledge please. I'm leaving the house in a few minutes to get the testing stuff for ketones. There are no vets open here on Sunday and the nearest 24 hour ER vet is 3 hours away.

Good idea getting the ketone strips... It will either put your mind at ease or let you know what you're dealing with.

 

[JeanW]

While you're trying to just encourage her to eat giving the dry is ok, but ultimately you want to eliminate that dry.

Thank you for your responses. I agree with you on the dry food and it really is pretty rare that I give her any dry food at all. But late yesterday and today fall into that rare category. I appreciate your insight.

Thanks again.

 

[JeanW]

Following what I’ve read here I bought Fancy Feast Tuna Feast Flaked rather than the Fancy Feast Classi. Ocean Whitefish and Tuna I’ve been giving her.

The flaked is slightly higher in protein, lower in fat by close to 10% (lower good for her sometimes pancreatitis) 5% carbs rather than zero and nearly 200 less in phosphorus which should be better for her 10 year old kidneys.

Am I on the right track here? Also about 25% more calories which may help her gain some much needed weight.

Please let me know what you think.

 

[JeanW]

How do you reconcile when various food lists don’t match each other (protein, fat, carbs, phosphorus etc) and / or don’t match what the manufacturer tells you by phone?

 

[JeanW]

Another question - seems I should know this by now but apparently not.

What is the threshold where I don’t give her an evening shot? I suspect maybe she bounces but don’t have proof either way so far.

I stayed up with her all night last night and can not do that again. I’m like a zombie today. In the past I have sometimes gotten up at 12:30 or 1 halfway through the cycle to give her the 4th feeding. I can do that tonight but not stay up.

What do you all suggest?

 

[JeanW]

Well no worries about not giving her the shot. BG was way high - probably due to the bit of dry food and the free feeding which I don’t usually do either.

 

[Sharon14]

How do you reconcile when various food lists don’t match each other (protein, fat, carbs, phosphorus etc) and / or don’t match what the manufacturer tells you by phone?

I mostly read ingredients labels. Look for no starches, and I try to avoid carrageenan. I have a lot of cats and can’t afford to feed the better quality foods all the time, but I just do what I can.

For the dosing advice, you may want to start posting on the Lantus forum.

 

[rhiannon and shadow (GA)]

What treat do you give her after her test?

Some cats need a little enticing by adding some sort of sprinkle of a favorite on their food.

Feeding several small meals a day is better for their glucose levels, keeps it steady instead of up and down.
You don't have to pick up her food when you go to bed. Find out if she will graze a little on her own while you sleep.
Cats do get tired of the same flavors so maybe you can rotate and try something new.

 

[rhiannon and shadow (GA)]

btw, My Shadow was an example of a cat who did better with some carbs rather than trying to be zero.
She did best on 8 and 9% I learned by trial and error. When I fed her zero percents, her numbers would go up slightly.

 

[JeanW]

btw, My Shadow was an example of a cat who did better with some carbs rather than trying to be zero.
She did best on 8 and 9% I learned by trial and error. When I fed her zero percents, her numbers would go up slightly.

Thanks for both replies. I agree about several small meals though that's the opposite of what all the vets have told me. Such a learning process.

Today I gave her one small piece Temptations after her test.

Yesterday I changed from the zero carb food to 5% carb food - both Fancy Feast. Clearly she feels at least a little better and is caring for herself more. I'm looking into Lotus Just Juicy Chicken canned food. The manufacturer told me by phone that it has 4% carbs and no carrageenan. I ordered some yesterday and will see how it goes.

Thanks for the info.

 

[JeanW]

Do you all stick your cat for BG check twice each and every day? I've now poked Pretty Girl about 8 times in the last 2 days or so. We both need a break.

I've been feeding her small meals today and / or mostly letting her free feed. It seems to be helping.

 

[Kris & Teasel]

Do you all stick your cat for BG check twice each and every day? I've now poked Pretty Girl about 8 times in the last 2 days or so. We both need a break.

I've been feeding her small meals today and / or mostly letting her free feed. It seems to be helping.

Have a look at a bunch of other spreadsheets to get an idea of how often people test. Some do the minimal amount and others are self described testaholics. Mine is average I'd say.