Cat's BG at 480, freaking!

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We tested Spot's blood this AM and it was 480. Last night around 6 pm it was 177. We are giving him Lantus insulin in the AM only, 1 unit. I read posters here did not agree with that but once it dropped down to 55 so we have been giving it once. The vet approves only giving it once a day. (I also know posters here don't care what the vet says, but I DO.) Anyway, his numbers have been very up and down since we have been home testing since March 31. I have a call in to the vet to see if we should start giving him 2 shots a day. This number freaks me out!!! On April 6 we had very low numbers. This morning the only thing we did different is warm his ear with the rice sock. Could that affect this BG number?

p.s. I have him on Fancy Feast classics diet but he was always raised with canned cat food, and very little/to no dry food.
 
Ask the vet if two shots of 1/2 unit every twelve hours would keep his numbers more consistent over a 24 hour period than one shot of 1u will. If he says "yes", then he's right, and there'd be no reason for him to tell you to not do it. If he says "no", then he really doesn't understand how Lantus (or any) insulin works in cats, and you should seek a 2nd opinion for the good of your kitty.
Insulin does not work in cats the same way it does in people. Any vet should know that, even if they've never treated a diabetic cat (because you'd hope one with little experience would either "look it up" or consult with a more experienced vet).
The reason you are seeing such a swing in numbers is because the insulin doesn't last for 24 hours in a cat. Once the insulin wears off, there's nothing stopping his numbers from climbing, so you would continue to see a wide range of numbers.

There is no logical reason why your vet would tell you to shoot once a day. I know you care what he says, and so do we. What we care most about is that no matter what anyone is telling you, that what they are saying is correct. We aren't vets, but that doesn't mean we don't understand how feline diabetes works better than some vets do.

Please ask your vet to read this:
It was written by scientists, not by "crazy internet cat people" :lol:
http://www.uq.edu.au/ccah/docs/diabetesinfo/link4.pdf
And give him this link, so he'll understand where FDMB is coming from:
http://www.felinediabetes.com/
Bottom line.....we all want what is best for your kitty.
Carl
 
Bandit's initial vet also had him on once a day dosing to start. This was because she was very familiar with once a day dosing because she had a lot of experience using Lantus with dogs. Cats' metabolisms are twice as fast as dogs or humans so insulins that last 24 hrs in dogs or humans only last 12 hrs in cats. Once I came here and found out that she was dosing Bandit incorrectly, I stopped following her dosing advice and made adjustments myself based off of the Lantus dosing protocol. Vets are general practitioners have to know many diseases for many different animals, and it's very rare that they get every detail of treatment right. My vet was very knowledgeable and I trusted her, but she wasn't a specialist in feline diabetes and was not aware of the Lantus dosing protocol, so her dosing advice was not correct.

If you need information to convince your vet to change to twice a day dosing, Here are the AAHA diabetes guidelines: http://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocuments/AAHADiabetesGuidelines.pdf. Note on p. 4 (218) where it says initial insulin therapy should be 1u per cat q 12hrs.

Here is the dosing protocol for Lantus: http://www.uq.edu.au/ccah/docs/diabetesinfo/link4.pdf. Note where it says on the second page under Initial dose where it states "Begin with 0.25 IU/kg of ideal weight BID".
 
A cat's metabolism is about twice that of humans. Lantus is dosed once a day for humans but is best twice a day for cats. Giving them a single dose a day causes what you experienced - a very low number and a high numbers. That is a huge roller coaster ride for your baby and doesn't feel well.

Carl explained a lot of things very well...I second....

We're all about the FD kitties...

BIG HUG!
 
Giving shots twice a day doesn't need to mean more insulin, you can give the same dose split into two shots so that you don't have to worry about those really low numbers, but also don't see those really high numbers.

Think about it like driving a car. You use the same amount of gas, but instead of holding the accelerator down evenly, you floor it the first part of the trip and get the car going really fast, in order to coast the last half of the trip. That is really what you are doing when giving a cat one shot a day. They metabolize that shot in half the day (can go low) and they have to coast on their own the second half (sailing into high numbers).

Discuss your concerns with your vet. If you have a good vet he/she will do some research and will quickly find lots of information the 2X/day dosing is the best treatment for cats.
 
Well that is an icky BG number. :-Q
I had a cat who sat in some pretty high numbers for a while. I understand how unsettling it can be.

I just read through what I think was your introductory post. Your concerns of listening to a bunch of people on the internet vs the vet are valid. I had the same worries when I started posting. Fortunately I had a WONDERFUL vet. I was able to bring the information and suggestions from here to discuss with him. 95% of the time he agreed and even admitted later that he learned something from us (because he would go research it on VIN, or where ever). I thought that was really great how open he was to learning. He gave me his blessings to tinker with Latte's dose as I felt fit. BUT, I always let him know either right before or right after. He had access to my spreadsheet so he could help me make decisions when I was unsure. Now, did he agree with EVERYTHING I did regarding dose and feeding? Nope. But he respected and understood my logic enough that he supported it.

I wonder if your vet is open to having a relationship like I did with mine? When you are unsure of what others are telling you on here, can you have a dialogue with him/her and have him research it to help you make decisions?

Anyway, regarding the high number and insulin...others have explained it quite well. Next time you give insulin, its probable his BG will go down again. 10-12 hrs later it will start to go up and stay there until you give insulin again. Since your cat is not getting insulin for "x" amount of hrs each day, and sitting in high numbers at times I would highly recommend doing regular checks for ketones, which can be life threatening. You would use ketostix, which can be bought at most pharmacies. The box will look like this:
30193288050_450x450_a.jpg


If Spot is ok (other than a high bg), would you consider taking the 911 off your subject line? People see that and panic about a kitty having a life/death situation.

Oh- and I fed my FD kitty wellness and ff too! :mrgreen:
 
A couple things stand out to me. One, everyone is correct, you need to have a discussion with your vet about how Lantus works and how it is dosed. A low number means a reduction in dose, not getting rid of a dose. If you're using a human meter, a reading of 55 isn't so low that it would call for a reduction at all, unless you suspect the number was even lower and the 55 was on the rise, or it was before the peak action of the insulin and still falling. Lots of us would LOVE to see mid-50's; I know I do! The latter can be controlled by food if you're vigilant. 55 is not a hypo number on a human meter. We talk reduction when they fall below a 50.

Second, One thing that can happen with some cats is what we call a "bounce." When a cat becomes diabetic, their body becomes used to the higher numbers. That's not a good thing, but what can happen is, that when the cat gets on insulin and the numbers get lower, the liver kind of freaks out and says "hey, the BG is dropping lower than I'm used to! Eek!" and in response to a number that it perceives as too low, dump glucagon into the system, raising the BG. For a cat that has had numbers over 300 or even 400, a drop to 177, even though that's not in the "normal" range, could have been enough to trigger the bounce, which can take up to 72 hours to clear the system once it happens, and that's on 12-hour insulin dosing. When you couple a bounce with dosing only half as much as the cat needs, numbers like you saw would be expected.

If you take a look at Mikey's spreadsheet in my signature, you'll see that he bounced this morning after some really nice numbers last night. The reason that the bounce was not as big as your cat's could be a variety of factors, but probably mainly because he's getting a proper dose (for him) of insulin given regularly and that he's been on insulin longer and is getting used to lower numbers. If you look back to December and January, you'll see that the bounces were much bigger, and you'll see when they stopped being so big as his body adjusted. Some cats take longer than others, but they can and do even out.

I don't think anyone here doesn't care what their vet thinks. I know i do, but I also know that I can follow the accepted Lantus dosing protocol without her having to give permission for every single step. The way the protocol is written is so that it's doable without taking the cat to the vet every time you want to change the dose...there are specific guidelines that we follow that tell us when we should adjust dose, and from there, we learn to take our cats' individual situations into account. I value the opinion of my vet very much, but I'm also capable of following the protocol without her holding my hand.
 
ammonzon said:
We tested Spot's blood this AM and it was 480. Last night around 6 pm it was 177. We are giving him Lantus insulin in the AM only, 1 unit. I read posters here did not agree with that but once it dropped down to 55 so we have been giving it once. The vet approves only giving it once a day. (I also know posters here don't care what the vet says, but I DO.) Anyway, his numbers have been very up and down since we have been home testing since March 31. I have a call in to the vet to see if we should start giving him 2 shots a day. This number freaks me out!!! On April 6 we had very low numbers. This morning the only thing we did different is warm his ear with the rice sock. Could that affect this BG number?

p.s. I have him on Fancy Feast classics diet but he was always raised with canned cat food, and very little/to no dry food.

of course you should be giving shots twice a day.... every 12 hours.
that's why you got the 480! because you did not give insulin in the evening.
your dose is likely too high and you should be giving maybe .5units am and pm, but you need to cut out that dry food, even if it's just a few pieces...those few pieces are enough to give you high numbers.

You will continue to see highs and lows because your cat is running out of insulin after about 10-12hrs and you are not giving the next shot, so up the numbers will climb, all nite long until the am, when you will get another high number.

Do your syringes have 1/2 unit markings on them? If not, you need to get some as you are likely going to need to give a dose like ..5u twice a day.

And the 480 is not an emergency, so you can take off the 911.
 
p.s. I have him on Fancy Feast classics diet but he was always raised with canned cat food, and very little/to no dry food.

Ah but even just a few pieces can send numbers soaring in a carb sensitive cat.
And even dtry treats, the crunchies, can be enough to wreck numbers.

if my cat Shadoe got just a small mouthful of even 3 pieces of dry food, her numbers could jump fro the 100s up to the 400s.... it does not take much, so that's why it is important to eliminate ever last piece so that you know that any bad numbers are not from high carb food.

I am sure that once you lower the dose and give shots every 12 hours, you are going to have a happier cat with much better numbers.
 
No, you never mentioned dry food in this thread, so some people apparently hadn't noticed that.

One other thing that has been mentioned is about reducing the dose. I'd just point out that the experienced Lantus users that have chimed in mentioned the normal "reduction point" of any number below 50 means a dose reduction should take place.
The assumption there is that you are following the dose guidelines in the "Tight Regulation Protocol". It seems like that isn't what your vet has had you doing, but I would like to let you know about another protocol which is encouraged on the board, and that is the "SLGS" (start low, go slow) protocol, which calls for dose adjustments differently:
Five Steps to Regulation:

Step 1. Start at a low dose of PZI, Lantus, or Levemir insulin, as recommended by your vet. (Note: Humulin and Novolin Lente and Ultralente, two insulins with good track records in cats, have been discontinued by the manufacturers.) A conservative starting dose is 1.0-2.0 units, twice per day. If your cat’s blood glucose was less than 400 mg/dl (22.1 mmol/L) at diagnosis, or if your cat is on a low-carbohydrate diet, the starting dose should be only 0.5-1.0 units twice per day. Fast-acting insulins such as Humulin Regular, Humulin 70/30, and Humulin N (NPH) are not suitable starting insulins for cats, in the experience of FDMB members because of the high risk of hypoglycemia; Humulin N may be appropriate later on if you discover that longer-acting insulins cause problems for your cat. Vetsulin, also known as Caninsulin, is less harsh than Humulin N, but still appears to carry a risk of hypoglycemia, particularly for cats who are not meal-fed high-carbohydrate food, so please be aware of the risks.

Step 2. Don’t increase the dose until your cat has been on it for at least a week. If you have reason to be concerned about hypoglycemia, or if your cat won’t eat, do decrease the dose and contact your vet. Do test your cat’s urine frequently during the regulation process using Ketostix or Ketodiastix, and contact your vet immediately if the cat tests positive for ketones. Do be consistent in the timing and type of food. Do give the shots at about the same time every day.

Step 3. After 1-2 weeks at a given dose, you or your vet should perform a serial blood glucose curve (blood glucose tests every 2 hours, starting at shot time and continuing until the next shot). Follow the cat’s normal feeding schedule during the curve. The curve should be evaluated by someone experienced at interpreting feline blood glucose curves, in order to check for signs of rebound and other possible problems. If no rebound is present, follow these guidelines for dose adjustment (smaller adjustments may be appropriate for cats on PZI or Lantus):
a) If the lowest point of the curve is above 150 mg/dl (8.3 mmol/L), increase the dose by 0.5 unit.
b) If the lowest point of the curve is between 90 and 149 mg/dl (5.0 and 8.2 mmol/L), keep the dose the same.
c) If the lowest point of the curve is below 90 mg/dl (5.0 mmol/L), decrease the dose by 0.5 unit.

Step 4. Repeat the cycle of curving and waiting 1-2 weeks. As your cat’s blood glucose begins to fall mostly in the desired range [lowest point of the curve approaching 100 mg/dl (5.5 mmol/L) and pre-shot value around or below 300 mg/dl (16.6 mmol/L)], do lengthen the waiting time between dose increases. If you decide to change another factor (e.g., diet or other medications), don’t increase the insulin dose until the other change is complete (but do decrease the dose if your cat's glucose numbers consistently fall below 90 mg/dl (5.0 mmol/L) as a result of the change). Don’t be tempted to rush the process along by increasing the dose more quickly or in larger increments-- no matter how high your cat’s blood glucose is! Rushing towards regulation will cost you time in the long run, because you may shoot past the right dose.

Step 5. Once you can no longer increase the dose without the cat dropping below 90 mg/dl (5.0 mmol/L) at the lowest point, evaluate the duration of the insulin’s action. If your cat’s preshot blood glucose values are still consistently above 350 mg/dl (19.3 mmol/L), or if your cat’s blood glucose usually returns to preshot values more than an hour before the next shot is due, ask your vet about longer-duration insulins or possible adjustments to your cat’s food or feeding schedule.

That’s it — 5 steps! These steps are general guidelines that work for the majority of cats. Because every cat is different and exceptional situations may arise, your cat’s progress should be closely monitored by someone with experience regulating feline diabetics.
http://binkyspage.tripod.com/SLGS.html
You could share that with your vet and see if they would agree with SLGS as being a good plan to follow?

Carl
 
You could share that with your vet and see if they would agree with SLGS as being a good plan to follow?

It's important to note that the 84% remission rate associated with Lantus is with Tight Regulation. No studies have been done on the efficacy of SLGS. While it's an option for people who are unwilling or unable to do Tight Regulation, you have a better chance at remission if you start with TR, especially since there is a window that significantly lowers the remission rate over time. And to be clear to everyone, I am NOT saying that a cat can't go into remission without TR, just that it has a high, scientifically proven remission rate, where the remission rate of SLGS is unknown.

However, I think discussing the merits of protocols is a little much right now-first thing first is bringing the information provided to your vet, and convincing him/her to read over the material so that you can at least get your cat settled on twice a day dosing. Then once you're on a good, steady dose every 12 hours, take the time to read over the information and figure out which dosing approach you'd rather take.
 
Gayle, my cat's not on dry food. I don't know why you are not listening. When I raised him, yes, I gave him canned food and a small amount of dry. BUT THAT IS NOT NOW. For the past 3 weeks, he has been on canned food and raw (Nature's Instinct) only. I appreciate your feedback but enough already. I feel guilty enough.
 
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