Bubba out of remission?? - was otj since 2010

Status
Not open for further replies.
chubbabubba

chubbabubba

Member Since 2012
Hello everyone,

Bubba is now 10 yrs old ( Tuxedo) and was the only kitten to survive in his litter ( stray born in my garage) Since he was 5 yrs old he has had asthma, Not knowing much he had shots of steriod about 2x per yr. Well in 2010 he got very sick and I was told he had diabetes. At that time he not only had diabetes that he also had fatty liver from not eating during regulation. He was yellow, and well dying. Went from 18lbs to 12lbs. Then rushed to emergency room here in NJ.Where he stood for about a week
Needless to say it was a rough road. They thought he would need a feeding tube but after a stimulante he started eating!
Bubba was put on insulin ( Humulin) back then 1 1/2 units for about two months. We switched his diet thanks to this board and his numbers were steady, for the last few yrs. Ranging 110-140. ( no insulin needed) We used the original Alpha Trak to test and ran blood work.
We went to the top hospitals with him the last being Philadelphia. We joined the asthma board as well and were given the Areo Kat from Philadelphia.

Bubba despite all the help, would not take to it, He would get so upset, he would end up having attacks on us.
I know I should have kept trying, ( tried for a month or longer) Could not get the proper dose in him. Bringing him back and fourth to the vet having him put in Oxygen was heart breaking. They moved away from the Areo Kat and gave him Terbutaline and it didnt control anything, only made him jumpy and hide.
Then gave him small doses of Prednisolone . He was taking it for over two yrs with no rise in bs.Minimal attacks

and we continued to run blood to check his levels. Right now, I feel 100 percent guilty for not only the numbers rising again but the weight gain.
I couldnt get the image of him on deaths row out of my head. I dont want anyone to think I dont love him to death, I do. I knew better yet I did what made him feel comfortable and didnt look at the big picture. Pred could have caught up with him ( now on backorder worldwide) he was taking a componded version- ( perhaps different, I dont know) Thats the only thing that changed. He was fine up until Nov ( end of) or its a combo of the URI, or teeth, or for the sudden change in numbers.

Again today I went to the vet and said I am very worried about his numbers and not eating. (Before going I stopped and got the Halo chicken treats for his food)
I asked if we could run the following- test ( Fructosamine ( although he is home tested, still want to know) and also a chest xray to see how his lungs are
His numbers are ranging from 200-300's and (two times in the 300's). I asked if we are going the insulin route what would be his insulin of choice for Bubba?
He said Lantus.

Last night after the vet visit he shot up to 332 ( around, I dont have his chart here) This morning after food he was at 252, tonight at 270 before food.
I gave him some FF with the Halo on top ( very little and he ate like a champ)

My questions are this- Is Lantus very different then what he was on before? If his numbers are between 200- 300 what dose do you think he will be given?
I know you need to test, eat, shoot ( over 200) I cant remember if thats the order? If when you test in the evening and his numbers dont call for it you do not shoot to prevent Hypo? ( that did happen to him before he went into remission)

I know Bubba and I have a lot to work on. My ideas are this

First regulate his numbers-
Get back to the Areo Kat ( even if I have to pay someone to help me this time)
Get his weight back down
Get him a cleaning

Tests ran- CBC, Urine at home to test for Ketones ( neg)

Original post below- First time numbers were up since 2010


Since its been over two yrs, and my memory is a bit rusty, if you have any info or suggestions on ways to help Bubba, please let me know. I have been a mess this last week or so and felt it was important to give you his entire history. __________________________________________________________________________________________________________-

Bubba has always been a food junkie, waking me up like clock work for his food. Although big he is pretty active.
When the new Alpha Trak 2 came out I bought it since mine had died. Sunday Bubba did not wake me up for his food which is so out of the norm.
I grabbed the meter ( which was set up already and tested) and tested him. It said 358! I jumped in the car and off to the vet,
All the terror of almost losing him last time was rushing in my head and I was trying to stay calm. Bubba had a temp of 103.4, and the dr gave him a shot of baytril.
The vet felt the numbers may have been up as he feels he has a URI .
That night I came home and tested him later on in the night ( Back to back ) as I was now questioning the meter! 271, 178, 191??????????? Within seconds apart.

Today I brought him back to the vet and he used the original Alpha Trak- came in at 208 ( no food) we tested him with the new Alpha Trak 2 it came in at 278
BTW his fever was down today. Bubba is eating but not like he was. I am in panic mode and my vet wants to wait a few days.
I just ordered those strips you put in the litter and told the vet I want to get bloodwork and urine.
I am aware of all of the signs, as he had them all Before- Ordor like nail polish in mouth, soaked litter, drinking, eating and then stopping.

Bubba is not eating great, drinking is so so. Sleeping a bit, he seems sluggish yet alert.
The numbers are so crazy that I dont know if he's heading down the path or is it the cold? I am so confused! Which test would be best first?> Urine , blood?
I was thinking urine first? What is the highest #'s most cats should be
I am sorry, I realize this post is all over the place but my mind is as well. I really am in a state of panic. Any information or thoughts, suggestions would be appreciated.

Ps- He is on a all wet diet ( Fancy feast) and I have contacted the maker Abbott about the crazy numbers) they are sending a new unit.
 
Re: Back again since 2010 kitty out of "remission"??

It certainly could be the UTI that is causing the higher numbers. I would do both tests - ketones (urine) once daily until he is eating and feeling better and blood glucose several times a day. He is in the 200s or lower so insulin probably can wait till he is higher (if that happens)

Your meter numbers aren't that far put of line. There is a 20% variance in any meter for readings, even those minutes apart. The ones you got are generally in that range.

He does need to eat. You can syringe feed him if he doesn't start on his own. You can warm up the wet food until nice and stinky, put Parmesan cheese on top, or dress it with any treat he likes.
 
Re: Back again since 2010 kitty out of "remission"??

Hi Sue,

Thank you for your reply. How do you guys test ketones? Any tips or tricks are welcomed for that too.
 
Re: Back again since 2010 kitty out of "remission"??

I got those ketone test strips that are found in the same section of the store where you can pick up diabetic supplies for humans. To test you just stick one of the strips (mine has got a small square of test paper on it) in the urine, pull it out when wet, and wait for 15 seconds. The square will change color in the presence of ketones (and, at least with mine, get darker with a higher level of ketones in the urine). The tough bit for me is being at the right place at the right time to catch my cat peeing (and then in the mood for me to stand there and stick a test strip in her urine stream).
 
Re: Back again since 2010 kitty out of "remission"??

Thank you Michelle. I ordered some from Purina. Also was looking at that smart box, but unsure how that would work if one of my other cats went in and used it.
Would it dilute the others reading? So many questions when trying to help control things for him.
 
Re: Back again since 2010 kitty out of "remission"??

The only way we could get a ketone test was to fill a clean litter box with aquarium gravel and put Oliver in the room with it, alone. He felt the need to put something in that clean box, so we could go in a few minutes later and get our sample (the urine won't be absorbed by the gravel). He was not a cat that would pee while anyone was watching so putting a ladle in his stream was never an option.
 
Re: Back again since 2010 kitty out of "remission"??

Chubabuba, my kitty had diabetes in 2011 then went in to remission. He just recently showed signs of diabetes again this November, and after taking him into the vet and confirming his diabetes was back and treating him, he is back in remission after only 3-ish weeks. Anyway, this summer (when he did not have diabetes) he had a minor emergency when he had an impacted anal gland, and when we rushed him into the vet, his bs was sky high, in the upper 300s. Just a few days later, it was back to normal, in the low 100s. That day, his liver values were way off, too. But after a few days of antibiotics and rest, all the numbers were back to normal, safe levels. Yet in the meantime, I was convinced his liver was shot and his diabetes had returned. The point is, if your kitty has a uri, it is very possible his numbers are just responding to that pain and stress of an infection and will normalize after it is treated. Also, my kitty wasn't eating well at that time, so one thing I did was cook him lean chicken breast, and he ate it up.
Good luck with your boy. I know how scary it is when they are sick, and its even worse when you're not sure what is going on.
 
Re: Back again since 2010 kitty out of "remission"??

See my signature link Secondary Monitoring Tools for several options in checking urine ketones, urine glucose, and other indicators of health.
 
Re: Back again since 2010 kitty out of "remission"??

Thank you everyone for your replies. Bubba went back today for bloodwork and I bought the ketone strips and happily followed him to the litterbox with a large spoon behind my back. Obtained the sample and it came out negative. You would have thought I won the lottery how happy I was to get his urine!!
His numbers were still high this morning at 230. ( testing another two times tonight) So we are waiting for the bloodwork. He started eating again today and he is acting playful.
I dont know what is going on, but I have such a close eye on him I am sure I am driving him nuts! I am hoping it / is/ was the URI that uped his numbers but if they dont continue to decrease I know we will do what needs to be done and hopefully go on a little "honeymoon" yet again. (if)

Do you guys know what the normal range of glucose levels for a cat in remission ( honeymoon ) sorry, I dont know which is correct?

Ps...I am super excited to not only test his blood, but test his urine! Just helps ease the mind having access to both for a guide for me and my vet.

Thanks again.
 
Re: Back again since 2010 kitty out of "remission"??

Who else beside cat people could get excited about getting a urine sample? (we all understand your happiness)

The range for a cat off insulin in remission is between 40-120(off insulin) with the majority of time in double digits, for 2 weeks. Also, be aware his 230 is not a high number. We urge new diabetics not to shoot under 200 until they have lots of data to know what the cat might do, so he is close to that threshold.

Stress and infections often cause higher numbers. We'll keep fingers and paws crossed that when he gets well, his numbers come down.
 
Re: Back again since 2010 kitty out of "remission"??

Hi Everyone,

Thank you for hanging in there with us! I got Bubba's bloodwork back today and it was done late Tuesday night. His blood glucose came in at 310.
I dont know what to think, if it could have shot up due to stress ??( he has been to a million hospitals and vets since 2010, he really has " white coat syndrome")
Last night after food he went down to 145, and he ate well last night! This morning he was just picking ( not normal for him) and after a tad of food he was at 210.
So the mornings seem to be high for him yet they are creeping down a bit. I came hope and he ate some, but not like normal. I will test him again later.
I guess just like everyone else I am on eggshells as I dont know whats going on and why his numbers are out of whack. No more sneezing, fever etc.
So I guess I will wait it out and continue to test, test .... He was also dehydrated a tad- Dr said to keep a eye on water intake and at this time since his numbers were dropping no insulin that he would like me to watch his numbers and alert him if it goes over 300 again?????

Just lost my Baby Sammy ( Blue Russian) in Feb at a young age due to intestinal Lymphoma, Bubba is not acting right and now my oldest Jetter who is 17 ( Acts like a Spring chicken most times wont eat today as well and is much more talkative today then ever. He will be going to the vet as well!
My mind is just crazy with worry I guess. Thank you for listening. I am off to get some baby food to see if I can get that and some chicken into them.
 
Re: Need advice Back again since 2010 kitty out of "remissio

Hi all,

Bubba went back to the vet again today as he is really not eating. He wants to eat yet pushes the food around to extract any liquid in it.
The Dr said his mouth was a little inflamed and gave him liqiud meds Clindimycin ( sorry dont have the bottle here)
When I spoon feed him, and mush up the FF he will eat some so I think within the day he is getting like 1 1/2 to two cans of FF
Is this enough food for such a big cat??
Mind you he is a big cat at 22 lbs! ( diet yes I know) but my concerns are fatty liver ( as he had last time in 2010)

His numbers have been all over the place from 190- 368? This morning before the vet he was 238 in the morning 630am
We went to the vet , had to wait for some time so I am sure he was stressed and tonights reading is 331
I know you guys have been thru it all. Bubba has but at that time it wasnt a waiting game, he got sick, they gave insulin, helped the fatty liver and we were on our way.

I am concerned with the decrease in eating and numbers that are up and down but not going back as they were.
He was ALWAYS 110- 170 MAX and that was normally when he was sick.

When should I be looking at insulin here? How much should a cat his size truly be eating to stay healthy? I dont want to panic, but I am and my vet
isnt worried. Please tell me what you would do? Tonights # and the lack of eating is freaking me out.
Tried baby food, spoon feeding ( works better then anything) etc
Should I be insisting on insulin yet? Financially things have been rough since 2010 when he first got sick at that time the bills were over 8000
between the Dr'S, Emergency hospitals and second opinions. etc I dont care about the money but I am trying to aviod things getting so bad that we wnd up there again.
Please guys, tell me what you would do. Tests, etc. He is truly my best friend in this world and I am feeling lost right now.
 
Re: Back again since 2010 kitty out of "remission"??

330s are numbers that need insulin. Do you have insulin or have to get it from the vet?. If his mouth is sore, would he like warm water mixed with the wet food? It makes kind of a gravy which lots of cats like.
 
Hi,

I finally posted a more detailed history above of my little man. My mind has been jumpy and all over the place. Any suggestions, please let me know. I am so sorry for the long post above, but I wanted to give a full picture.
 
Have you talked to your vet about insulin? We like slow long lasting insulins like Lantus, Levemir or ProZinc. I would think you might consider dosing by drops at the beginning....

We don't think cats need to stay at the vet to be regulated. Since most of them are very stressed at the vet and we know that stress raises bg levels, we figure numbers vets would get in their office would be higher than those we see at home. The first shot (drop) could be at the vet and then you take him home, monitor with tests and keep the vet informed.

If I were you, I would work hard to increase his eating. Spoon feed him watered down wet food if that's what he will eat. Get a ketone test of his urine. Get some more at home numbers so you can get a real feel for how high his numbers are and post them here. Do it in this format : food and number, +2-3 or how ever many hours later and number etc. is there a chance your vet might have part of a vial in his or a colleague's practice that he might sell at a reduced rate? You might tell him you are considering just a drop of insulin to bring down his numbers?

Iif his mouth hurts, has the vet prescribed anything for pain?
 
Hi Sue,

Thank you for your reply, Bubba ate well so far tonight with the help of a sprinkle of the Halo chicken treats.
The Dr said for his weight he should be eating 3 cans of FF a day. I did talk to the Dr tonight and asked that we run the Fructosamine test tomorrow.
I have all his numbers written down from the home testing, this may be overkill to run that test? But, wanted to have a bigger picture since I am pretty sure it started early Dec. with the numbers rising.

I did talk to him about insulin and he would use Lantus. I am so afraid of the dose and like the idea of drops! How do I explain that?
Are you talking like one small line on the needle? I am sorry to sound stupid, but want to make sure I understand to explain.
He said he would start him off at half a unit, and I think I would want to go lower, that feels like a bit much to start
Also, If I could keep the numbers in the 2's I would like to start over the weekend so I could test like crazy. I am nervous that if something else is going on and we put him on insulin, I will harm him/ Yet I know his numbers are not in normal range.
I am just so afraid. I really am.

When first starting again and on lantus, what are the normal times between dosing ( if needed) I read that they want you to test 3 times a day?
I wish I had unlimited funds, so the hospital could regulate him and he would have 24 hr care in case. I did it before, and we made out fine but at that time they had him 24/7 and had the dose correct, I kept testing and when it started staying within the normal range he finally went into remission. Only one time with a low number.
I am going on and on here- No sleep. was up most the night with him.
 
That sounds encouraging! I am glad he is eating better. A fructosamine test will tell you what his bg levels have averaged the past few weeks. If you are testing at home, you can get the same information. But if your vet wants one and you can afford it, it wouldn't hurt.

Lantus is a good insulin. We have a forum of Lantus users here that can help you. I'll post over there to see if someone will come over.

It's time to set up a spreadsheet. It's a great tool for you to keep track of his numbers and doses; it will be easy to send the info to your vet and if you want help here, it gives advice givers a quick look at Bubba's history. Here are the instructions:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18207

It's a little tricky so if you need help, just ask.

For now, can you post the dates and times you took bg tests and the results and whether they were at the vet or at home?
 
Thanks Sue! Maybe I will do that spreadsheet when I have had some sleep. It looks rather tricky. :(
Sue, what did you mean by drops? I want to talk to his Dr about that.

I will look for the Lantus board as well and read it after I have some sleep!!

Thanks Sue, Bubba and I appreciate all of your help and everyone on the board.

High Paw!
 
Sleep would be good before trying the spreadsheet. :mrgreen:

You can dose lower than a half unit - like .2 or .4 units. I don't use your insulin so you should get advice from some Lantus users about starting.
 
Sue posted about Bubba on the Lantus board and asked us to stop by. I'm a denizen of Lantus Land!

I'm sorry to hear that Bubba fell out of remission. Lantus and Humulin are very different. First, there is a formula that can be used to calculate initial dose: starting dose = 0.25 x ideal weight in kilograms. If 22 lbs is Bubba's ideal weight, his starting dose would be 2.5u. Obviously, you can start at a lower dose. I'm pointing out what the starting dose could be since staring with drops could make it quite some time before Bubba was even close to a dose that would have an effect on his numbers.

Humulin is a potent, harsh insulin with a relatively short duration. It is no longer a preferred insulin for cats. On the other hand, Lantus is less potent, is gentle, and has a long duration. It is also a depot-type of medication. The insulin depot is what gives Lantus its duration and allows for overlap between doses. With Lantus, we test, feed, then shoot -- all withing about 5 min. You do not need to feed well in advance of giving a shot. In addition, Lantus dosing is based on the nadir, not on the pre-shot values. These are the primary differences between Lantus and Humulin.

The starred, stickly notes at the top of the Lantus Board include a great deal of information about Lantus and its use. Below is a brief description of the notes and links to them.
  • Tight Regulation Protocol: This sticky contains the dosing protocol that we use here. There are also links to the more formal version -- the “Tilly” Protocol developed by the counterpart of this group in Germany, which was also published by Kirsten Roomp & Jacqui Rand, DVM in one of the top vet journals.
  • New to the Group: Everything you wanted to know about this forum and more. Info on our slang, FAQs, links to sites on feline nutrition and to food charts containing carb counts, how to do a curve and the components to look for, important aspects of diabetes such as ketones, DKA, and neuropathy, and most important, info on hypoglycemia.
  • Handling Lantus: how to get the maximum use from your insulin and what to not do with it!
  • Lantus depot: This is an important concept for understanding how Lantus works.
  • Lantus & Levemir: Shooting & Handling Low Numbers: What data you need in order to be able to work toward remission or tight regulation as well as information if you have a low pre-shot number or a drop into low numbers during the cycle.
 
Sienne gave you some very good information with regards to the protocol, and starting doses. My cat, Blackie, was diagnosed March 2010. Lantus is a very good insulin for diabetic kitties. Blackie's been on it for well over 2 years, and it's doing wonders. Good luck!
 
Thank you all, I am going to read some more on the Lantus boards to try and get a better idea.
To update you guys

This morning at 545am no food Bubba was at 200
Ate like a champ
( No testing again due to work) and at 6pm (no food) at 283
At 853 pm with almost 3oz of FF behind him he was at 281


I will be back after reading, I still dont understand the spreadsheet and have been keeping track on a phone app ( on track)
and also writing them down so as soon as I master how to do it, I will.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top