August 10, 2020 New Member

Hi everyone,

I'm so glad that I found this website! Some backstory: My cat Ash was diagnosed last September and it feels like a constant uphill march (his numbers are way worse now then they were last year). I test twice a day using the OneTouch Ultra meter and they're usually 10 or higher (generally in the mid-to high teens). His insulin dose is 4.5 in the morning and 4.0 in the evening.

He's on the Natural Balance Limited Ingredient High Protein Chicken dry food. I wish I could get him to eat wet food, but he has absolutely refused every attempt I've made since I brought him home in 2009. He genuinely will not even acknowledge that wet food is food. I tried at the start of this and he didn't eat for days, I had to mix a tiny amount with water and syringe it into his mouth so he wouldn't stave.

Any tips or suggestions from anyone on how to start bringing his numbers down would be so greatly appreciated.

Thank you!

 

Welcome Amanda
First thing could you please set up your signature, it's important we need to see this
We then have a spreadsheet that we use to put in our cat's BG readings
It's the only way for our experienced members to give you advice on doses

I will give you the link and if you could fill in any tests you have done so far
We don't what insulin you are using , the dose, etc, that's why we need your signature and spreadsheet

If you have problems with the spreadsheet we have an amazing member you can set it up for you

Take a look at my spreadsheet to get an idea how it works
I will give you the link o understand how it works
Can you tell us where you live or your time zone
Insulin should be the same dose for each cycle
As you know dry food is very high in carbs

You have come to he best place you could ever be

1. 
   
2. 
   Diane Tyler's Mom
   Joined:
   Sep 21, 2018
   If you could set up you signature that would be great
   • On the left, under Settings, Click on Signature. This is where you will put information that helps us give you feedback.
     • There is a limit of two lines which may include two links; you may separate pieces with commas, dashes, | etc. This is where you paste the link for your spreadsheet, once it is set up.
     • Add any other text, such as
     • Caregiver & kitty's name (optional)
     • DX: Date
     • Name of Insulin
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https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/

Instructions for setting up the spreadsheet

 

https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/understanding-the-spreadsheet-grid.156606/

Understanding how the spreadsheet works

 

https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/creating-a-fdmb-profile.159626/

Creating your profile

 

https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/dr-pierson-new-food-chart.174147/

Here is the food chart most of us feed Fancy Feast Classic Pates, we like to stay under 10 percent carbs

 

Hello and welcome!

That's a fairly high dose, and it's somewhat unusual to have different amounts in the morning vs. evening. Are you using Caninsulin/Vetsulin or some other insulin? How did you and your vet get to that dose?

Just to give you an idea of where we're likely going with this: to figure out what's going on, you'll likely need to start testing more than just (I'm assuming) at pre-shot. Pre-shot is often the highest numbers of the day, but we need to know how low the insulin is taking Ash before we can say anything about the dose.

One thing that is really common is a phenomenon called "bouncing": insulin takes a cat low, then the cat's body reacts and the BG shoots up. If you're only testing at pre-shots, you'll never see the low and it will look like the insulin "isn't working". Then the vet says to increase the dose (often by big jumps, like 1.0U at a time), and the problem gets worse... this is one way you get to where you are now,

That said, 10 isn't that bad a number, really (we see cats who spend a lot of time in the 30's!), so hopefully it won't take much to get Ash straightened out!

 

Here are tips from Dr. Lisa Pierson's website for transitioning a cat from dry to wet food. It looks like you are already trying some of it!
https://catinfo.org/#Transitioning_Dry_Food_Addicts_to_Canned_Food_

 

Thank you so much for the info! I should have mentioned that he's on the Lantus insulin.

It's basically just been trial and error with his dose, I think he started at three. I've done a couple of glucose curves, and I would like to test more often, but the strips are so expensive (on top of everything else) that it's really hard.

 

As Nan said you should be testing more than just twice a day or you will never know how the insulin is working for Ash. That's where the spreadsheet comes in

 

Most of us use the human meter from Walmart, don't know where you live if you have a Walmart there
The meter is/9 bucks and the strips are 17.88 for 100 strips

 

This may be part of the problem... a starting dose of 3u is high and it may be that you’ve skipped over a dose that would suit Ash better. Have you considered dropping back to 1u and seeing what results you get on that? But, bg may still be high if you are feeding dry food - unfortunately there’s no getting away from that. We have certainly seen kitties here who stubbornly refuse to eat wet - if you’ve tried everything and Ash still refuses, maybe there are alternatives that are at least slightly lower in carbs. But anything you can do to find a wet food he will eat will be well worth the effort.

 

We don't increase by full units , we increase by 0.25 units , so you don't skip over a good dose

 

Hello Amanda and WELCOME.
Sounds like its a good thing you found us. We are dedicated to helping ANY kitty cat to feel their best even though they have this terrible disease.
You have found a safe place to land! As you can see the knowledge here is forthcoming and USEFUL. .
We welcome you and Ash with open paws!
Its going to get better.
jeanne

 

Thank you for the welcome, I really appreciate it! Ash did increase in small units until he got to 4/4.5 (and I really wish he wouldn't refuse to eat wet food, I've tried everything!).

I can't believe that the strips are under twenty dollars in the States. At a Canadian Wal-Mart, they're $80.00 for 100.

 

Looks like the dry food you are feeding has 27 carbs

 

Did you mean refuse to eat wet food
Maybe you could try to add a little of the Fancy Feast Classics to his dry food a little at a time, stir it up so it coats the kibble

 

I did. He won't eat wet.

 

Maybe you could try to add a little of the Fancy Feast Classics to his dry food a little at a time, stir it up so it coats the kibble

 

Great job setting up your profile and signature one thing can you just add to your signature about the respiratory infections
We have many members here from Canada, you might want to ask them what meter they use, maybe the strips would be cheaper

 

Have you tried crushing the dry food and sprinkle small amount on top of wet food? Freeze dried food?

If you can get both preshot tests, then 1 other during the day and one before bed (always a good idea) then that is sufficient to follow TR protocol. Of course more is better, but 4 is minimum. Lantus should be same dose AM/PM shots unless it's time for increase or decrease.

 

Waving from the Kawarthas.

 

I think it's something about the texture, he just won't allow it in his mouth. I've also never had luck with freeze dried food.

 

Waves back! Do you mind my asking which meter/strips you use and how much they cost?

 

Ahhhh that was Troubles problem. All he ever knew was kibble until he came to live with us. He seemed to look at canned food as a treat. BUT ALWAYS went back for the dry. I tried everything.. I finally just took the bowl of dry away. Poor Trouble would sit and stare at the empty spot where his dry food use to sit. Made me feel like a monster but once that dry was gone? Troubles numbers dropped 100 points. I have no luck with raw, freeze dried (have 2 packages of purebites chicken and Minnow) Zoe snubs with great delight.)
anything that ISNT FF.
I have been trying Weruva "PLAY" canned. Shes at least showing interest.

 

I should add

Be VERY cautious removing dry food. Do it slowly, a little less every day till its gone. Otherwise complete removal all at once can drop blood glucose numbers into DANGEROUSLY LOW levels and cause a Hypo episode.
j.

 

It's so frustrating. In my experience, people just won't believe that he will not touch wet food. He was put on a supplement for his respiratory infections just after I brought him home in 2009 and I used to have to mix the powder with water and shoot it into his mouth, instead of just mixing it into wet food (which would have been so much easier). I'm sure this sounds melodramatic, but I have tried and he would genuinely stave instead of eating it.

 

Trust me I KNOW lil stinkers

 

We do believe you, we have seen it here before. Most kitties can be persuaded to eat wet food eventually, but some are very very stubborn indeed. You can only do your very best!

 

@Nan & Amber (GA) and @Diana&Tom have raised valid points.

A glucose curve gives you only one day as an example. The next day or even the next cycle might be completely different. That is why it is strongly suggested that people get a couple of mid-cycle tests in each day. This will tell you more about how your cat is reacting to insulin that any glucose curve, and it is the only way to keep your cat safe.

Lantus craves consistency. We can help you find the dose that is right for your cat.

Strips in Canada are expensive. Lantus is not.
In the US, it's the opposite way round.

I used the FreeStyle Lite meter. $80/100 is the norm in Canada from what I can tell.

Ways to save on strips.
If you live near the border (I know, not much help at the current time), you can cross over to the US and buy strips if your meter is also sold there.
Save up and use your PC points. If you are a senior or have one handy, take advantage of Seniors' Days at Shoppers Drug Mart. That's what I did.

Some people have success on ebay. It is very important to check the expiry date on any items. And factor in the shipping costs.

There is one Cdn meter with cheaper strips – the Bravo meter. There are some drawbacks. This meter requires quite a large drop of blood (0.6) which can be hard to get sometimes from a cat's ear. The major drawback is that if you run low on strips, you cannot run to the drugstore and pick some up. You will be going through more strips that you can ever imagine. You should always have 200 strips on hand (keep a bottle in your hypo tool kit). If you have to get strips online, then you should have 300-400 strips on hand, ordering more when you get down to 200. A low or hypo event can use over 20 strips in a blink of an eye, and possibly more if you use a meter that requires a large blood drop.

The Bravo meter can be found here: https://diabetesexpress.ca/products/bravo-meter
If you live near Markham, you can buy directly from the retail outlet.
Strips are $40/100 + shipping.

Unfortunately, there is no dry food in Canada that is low carb.

I have not had a diabetic cat for a couple of years now. I did some searching then. One of the lowest dry foods I found was Orijen Red and Orijen Tundra and they are both considered as high carb for a diabetic cat (roughly 17% carbs). Low carb is considered to be under 10%.

Here is a link containing tips to transition from dry to wet.

• Transitioning your cat from dry to wet food

 

Wait a minute. I just did a random check on one of the two low carb dry food available in the US.
It looks like you can order and have it shipped through Petsmart.
Dr. Elsey's Clean Protein
https://www.petsmart.ca/search/?q=dr elsey's

 

Thanks for the info!

Lantus costs $150.00. I'd consider that pretty expensive, especially on top of syringes, strips and special food.

 

Lantus is the US costs hundreds of dollars.
Are you using the vial to the last drop? The 28-day limit on Lantus is for humans only who do not refrigerate it constantly because they carry it around with them.
If kept refrigerated properly (not in the side door), Lantus is good well beyond the 28 days and you can use it to the last drop.
A box of 5x3m cartridges - roughly $110. It will last 6 months to a year depending on the dose. And you have back-up insulin in case it hits the floor and breaks (it's happened).

 

27% carbs? Ideally you need a food that’s 10% or less carbs, hard to find in a dry food. So that 27% is almost definitely contributing to the high bgs. I don’t know what’s available in Canada but maybe if you research some other brands you might find something with a lower percentage of carbs. How about starting a new thread with a title asking Canadians to give you their suggestions - not only for foods but for where to source diabetic supplies?

 

That's a really good idea.

This is actually the third food he's been on. First it was Hill's W/D and then Royal Canin Glycobalance. His numbers kept going up, so I wanted to try something different.

 

I know about kitty addicted to dry food all to well. My civvie Trip was dry food fed only the first 15 yrs of her life. When I had my 1st diabetic, I tried getting her off the dry food for 3 yrs. Clean protein wasn't out then, the Young Again caused digestive upset big time. Tried everything wet out there. Made my own food, she would not touch it. Then Vital Essentials came out (not available in Canada) dehydrated freeze dried raw. I mixed a little water but kept it on the dry side, she gobbled and never went back to the dry. Started crumbling on wet food and eventually she started to eat FF beef pate, only that flavor. Then clean protein came out and she ate that. Husband started giving it a lot to her. Just found out she is allergic to that. Back to vital essentials again and she will now stay on that exclusively. Just got to keep trying until you find the one he likes.

 

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• Answer This Question. Theses are questions that were asked on the Chewys site .they have size bags but they are pretty expensive. Maybe you can grind them up and then sprinkle some on the Fancy Feast Classics. Just so you know they are very high in calories so I would watch that 554 calories a cup
• What is the protein, phosphorous, carbohydrate, fat, sodium and fiber % on DRY MATTER basis?
  This variety contains approximately 59% Protein content on an as fed basis (62.6% on a dry matter basis), 0.95% Phosphorus content on an as fed basis (1.08% on a dry matter basis), 4.12% Carbohydrate content on an as fed basis (4.69% on a dry matter basis), 18% Fat content on an as fed basis (19.46% on a dry matter basis), 0.51% Sodium content on an as fed basis (0.58% on a dry matter basis) and 4% Fiber content on an as fed basis (4.5% on a dry matter basis).
  
  By on Jul 15, 2020
  

 

If your cat is already on insulin, which I see he is, stopping the dry food completely could easily drop his BG levels by 100 basis points or more. Please be home testing the blood glucose before you totally stop the dry food.. You don't want him to have a hypo, just make sure if you do get the Dr Elsey's Clean Chicken Flavor and start to sprinkle it on the fancy feast (try to crush it up so he doesnt notice it, mux it in good with the wet) to transition him to all wet, you do it slowly and absolutely monitor him both cycles to make sure he is safe.
Each couple of days you can add a little less of the dry food