Assistance with PZI dosing please

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Meowluv

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I am really not sure how much insulin to be giving my little Ferdi muffin. Vet wants him on 3 units am and pm which I am convinced after reading on this forum is WAY to much for him. I apologize that my ss isn't updated. For some reason it won't automatically update! Today looked like this: amps 301 gave 1.50 units.+2 hours he was at 277. I had intended on testing more today but my 2 year old has contracted chicken pox so it just didn't happen. At +11 his levels are 139. At shot time they are still 139. Looks like I will be skipping the shot tonight. Although I am going to test him again in another 20 minutes.

So for you those of you who are experienced with this insulin what should I do dosage wise at this point? Is it possible that if I can find the correct dosage he may only need one shot per day? Are there cats that are good with just one shot?

Thanks!
Melody
 
Hi and welcome to our group.

Sorry but all insulin needs to be dosed every 12 hours. Prozinc usually lasts about 10 to 14 hours. So your AMPS will probably be high due to the skipped shot tonight so don't panic about that.

Usually a long cycle like you had today with an unshootable PMPS indicates that the dose is too high. I would go with 1 unit tomorrow morning and stick with that for a few days to let Ferdi get used to it.

3 units is a lot of insulin for someone just starting out. The Prozinc web site recommends starting at 1 unit.

Ask whatever questions come up, we'll do our best to answer them.
 
Welcome to PZI ;-)

The key is to support the pancreas with insulin in hopes maybe it will work on its own again. In order to support the pancreas it is best to give insulin on a consistent time schedule, spaced at 12 hrs apart. It actually strains the pancreas to give just once a day if the BG drops & then jumps high.

Getting the right dose is important. Unfortunately some vets just don't know how much to tell there patients to give. Only if there were diabetic vet specialist. :-D Every cat is different so some doses might work for one cat & it might not work for another.
3 units is extremely high. It's better to start low & work up.

I am with Robin...start with 1 dose stick with it for a few days & get some nadir numbers to see how low the BG is dropping on the 1u. Nadir is +6. I know for some it's hard to get a +6, but a +7-+8 is always helpful too.

What kind of diet is Ferdi on? Some feed 4 small meals a day & some feed 2 meals a day.

Remember consistency is important for meals & shots.

Hope you child feels better soon too.

Jenn & Baxter cat_pet_icon
 
Thanks everyone! I will drop his dose back down to 1 U in the morning and see how he does for a couple of days. I feed Ferdi 2 large meals in the am and pm. He gets a shot about 2.5 hours after he eats. At that time he receives a small meal. He seems to like this schedule and does pretty well on it.
 
One thing I forgot to add.
You want to give the insulin right after Ferdi eats. When waiting 2.5 hrs after food....the food has already kicked in at that point & the BG is already on the rise from the food. In turn causing the pancreas/insulin to work a little more to try to bring the BG down.
Since you feed 2 large meals a day it should be plenty off food in the body for the insulin. You don't want to give the insulin with no food.

Here is a little remember of the sequence

1.Test- get a BG reading before food....this will help you with dosing.
2. Feed
3. Shot

You can still give the small meal a few hours after food. Keep in mind tho, a reading a few hours after food will be food induced BG. Meaning it might be a little higher because of the food. You don't want to give food a few hours before a AMPS or PMPS. Let the food clear.
 
Cats metabolisms are just too fast for the insulin to last long enough for once a day dosing.

Out darn spots, chicken pox spots, go away and never come back another day. Hope your baby feels better. Boy or girl? Name?

You're part of the FDMB family now which is why I asked.
 
Thanks for asking about my son! His name is Caspian and he is 2. He does not have chicken pox according to the doctor but hand and mouth disease. :o So while highly contagious it is not as serious. He is feeling better today but the last few days have been rough!!

I'm still shooting the 1 U but today his am bg was 180 so I was afraid to shoot anything. Oh and while I do feed 2 large meals a day I give him a snack at shot time, which is about 1/2 his normal portion. Ferdi is a large cat and needs to eat more than just 2 meals I think. I did not give him his snack this morning though so I didn't shoot. Should I have given him a smaller dose this am?
 
When in doubt, skip the shot. Yes, maybe you could have given a smaller dose, but wait until you have enough data to make you comfortable with shooting a lower number.

In relation to shot times, when are the two main meals given?

And yes, some cats do better with multiple feedings rather then two meals per day. You don't increase the total food for the day, but you can split it into three or four servings, for instance.
 
I'm sorry your baby is sick, I hope he gets well soon.

If you could update your spreadsheet (in your spare time :lol: ) we can better see if the 1 unit dose needs to be adjusted.
 
I apologize about the ss. For some reason it won't automatically update! I'm going to ask my tech savvy dh to look into the issue. Shots are given at 9:30 am and pm. He is fed at 6:30 am and around 5:00 pm.

I'm also leaving on Sunday for 2 weeks to take classes toward my Masters. My dh will be in charge of all this so I'd like to have something dosage wise anyway worked out for him.
 
At google docs, under the "File" menu, after you pick "publish to the web", make sure the box that says "Automatically republish when changes are made" is checked.

Shots are given at 9:30 am and pm. He is fed at 6:30 am and around 5:00 pm.
Click to expand...

OK, now that makes some sense.... Most people feed the "main meals" just before the shot (test, feed, then shoot is the routine). What you're doing is fine, but it also has an influence on his curves.

This is what normally happens with Prozinc -

You test with no food for the past two hours at least, so you are seeing a BG number that is not increased due to food and carbs. So it's a "fasting BG" pretty much. Then you let him eat, and then give the shot.

For the first couple of hours, the food makes the BG go up. About 2-3 hours after the shot, the insulin reaches "onset" and starts to work to lower the BG. It keeps doing that until around six hours after the shot, then the effect starts to taper off. That would usually be the "low point" in the BG curve. Towards the time for the next shot, at +12, the numbers would continue to climb as the insulin wears off. Then you repeat the whole cycle.

What you have been doing is feeding a few hours before the shots. The effect is that the food has come and gone, probably before you give the shot. Then a couple hours later, the insulin would reach onset and start to work, and there's no lingering "boost" in BG from breakfast or dinner. In theory, that should give you a steeper drop than "normal". And your data would show what looks like it might be "short duration" because as the insulin is starting to wear off by 5PM, you're adding food to the mix, which would cause the BG to increase. It isn't that the insulin isn't working long enough, but that the food is making the BG go up as the insulin is wearing off.

One thing you might try. Take what you feed in a 24 hour period, and split it into four meals. You can continue to feed when you have been, but also give him one fourth of his daily food just after the AMPS and PMPS test, and just before you give the shots.

Food and insulin, while they have opposite effects on the blood glucose levels, also "work together" in terms of timing.

Does any of that make sense?
 
It is time for him pm shot and his levels are at 156. I didn't shoot this morning because bg levels were 180.

So Carl if I'm reading you correctly I should go ahead and test and then give the shot at breakfast and dinner, and then feed two smaller meals at some point in the day?

I've done all of that in google docs but for some reason it still won't update. My browser has been kind of wonky lately and it may have to do with that.

Yesterday his levels looked like this:
amps 300 +6 387 pmps 358 +2 298 At shot times I gave 1 unit.

Today amps 180 and pmps 156

That just seems really weird!
 
Don't shoot at 156. If you can, wait 20 minutes without feeding and retest. If he is 200+, then you could give him maybe .5. He went a long time on his own with no insulin. It's a good thing! :mrgreen:

I don't understand yesterday's numbers in relation to today's, but I would reduce the dose.
 
I gave Ferdi his "snack" and then tested. Still at 156. I guess no shot again tonight. I'm wondering if yesterday he might have eaten some dog food. While he enjoys the wet food he does miss the dry. I caught him a few days ago and then this morning, trying to eat the dog's food. Mojo eats dry food and won't stop Ferdi if he comes over to eat his food. In fact Mojo just stands back and watches will Ferdi eats it! Of course I ran him off and then Mojo jumped in and gobbled it all down lol. We will just have to really watch Ferdi with this.

Curious as to what his levels will be coming morning.

Melody
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
I don't understand yesterday's numbers in relation to today's, but I would reduce the dose.
Click to expand...


Do you think I should reduce the 1 unit? If so how much should I reduce it to?

Melody
 
This is great news! He is bringing himself down, without insulin, and is in normal numbers! So here's the plan: we generally consider cats OTJ if they stay between 40 - 120 without insulin for 2 weeks. I'd watch his numbers, getting tests midcycle and at his usual shot time. Giving small frequent meals during this time may help support his pancreas and get it working again.

If he over 200, you may want to consider a tiny dose to help out. Be sure to ask advice about giving a drop of insulin.

Fingers and paws crossed he is on his way!
 
I took his bg at 9:30 am this morning and it had gone up to 193. At that point I gave him .5 U. Now at +2 he is down to 176! So this is a vast improvement at this point. I was reading links on here yesterday about how to dose your cat when numbers are low. I knew such a small dose wouldn't hurt him and it looks like it has helped! :) I would love to see him go into remission but even if that never happens I would love to be able to just give him a very small dose of insulin.

Melody
 
Ferdi has done well today! :) I wasn't able to get a +6 as I wasn't home at that time however I did get the +2 at 176 and just now took his bg for his pm shot and he was at 170. So I gave him another dose at .5 U. I will try and get another reading before I go to bed. Really pleased with these numbers and hoping they hold out. I can also tell he is feeling better. He is more playful and also fidgeting around when I prick his ear for the bg test. Before he just lay there mostly. He has also swatted at my toddler several times today which is another good sign. And we haven't had an inappropriate pee pee in several days!

Melody
 
So Carl if I'm reading you correctly I should go ahead and test and then give the shot at breakfast and dinner, and then feed two smaller meals at some point in the day?
Click to expand...

Yes, that's the idea. :smile: Give the bigger meals at shot time, and the smaller meals at whatever times work for you and the rest of the kitties.
 
About your spreadsheet. Are you sure updating the original in google docs, not the one in your signature? The url in your signature is a read only; you can't edit it.
 
I don't know why the ss in my siggy is read only. Shouldn't it update when I enter my info in it from the ss on my desktop?

Melody
 
It's read only so no one else can edit it or mess it up. We can all see it but we can't change anything on it. The copy you can edit is the one you first put together on google. If you search Goggle docs after you are signed in, your ss should be there. Save it in your favorites so you can return to each and edit daily.
 
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