Aria *new*

[Hope and Aria]

Hey all! I'm Hope and I have two wonderful 15 year old girls who I picked out when their litter was born. My Aria was diagnosed w/ diabetes last year after we noticed that she had all of a sudden gotten SO skinny and bony. We were told by our vet that we would probably have to euthanize her, but she had always been healthy before (and this was such a shock to us) that I took her home, cried, cried again then told him that I wasn't prepared to do that.

In the last year, she's been on PZI, then Vetsulin when PZI ran out and now they switched us to ProZinc. I learned how to home test about 3 months after Ari's diagnosis and now I'm at the point of disagreeing with some of the younger vet's decisions. I found one of the vets (there are several at the practice) is very willing to work with me and my home testing and she's on board with helping me through TR. Every time we switch insulin's the regulation process starts over and it's just exhausting.

She's on a complete FF wet food diet and I've run 3 days of 12 hour curves (every 2 hours) to see how she reacts to ProZinc. The nadir for her seems to be right at 7-8 hours instead of 6. I had one time where it was at 8. Her numbers suggest that she drops 130-150 per unit of ProZinc. I keep her numbers in an excel sheet that does all my graphing and calcs for me which is quite nice. I'm not sure where I should post my numbers for help here, so if this isn't the right place, I apologize confused_cat

2/23/10 - Odd day - coming off a rebound
+7 FF Fish (husband fed w/o telling)
+9 FF Chicken
amps +12 - 364 - 2 units
+2.5 - 346 - FF Fish (didn't realize hubby had done this earlier)
+4.5 - 279
+7 - 246
+8.5 - 241 - FF Chicken
+11 - 376
pmps +12 - 411 - 2 units

2/24/10
+10 - 502 - FF Chicken (beggars)
amps +12 - 477 - 2 units
+2 - 353
+4 - 227 - - FF Chicken
+7 - 163
+8 - 178
pmps +11 - 431 - 3 units - FF Chicken(vet said to make her night dose earlier if numbers rising)
+2 - 388 - tested because she fell off the couch while sleeping on the arm. She's done this before and it always freaks us out.

2/25/10 - starting TR
amps +12 - 68 - No Shot Given -- FF (saw her eat a little. she's eaten well the last few days)
+14 - 176 - .5u (here we go! whiskers crossed)
+2 - 256 (273 on ReliOn - got a 2nd monitor for cheaper strips)
+4 - 279 (ReliOn) - hasn't hit over 300 so that's nice.
+6 - 259 - huh? Ok. that's odd. Going to get another reading.
+6 - 259 - 1 u - (Accucheck) so that's correct.. Since her bg usually drops by @150 per unit, I'm going conservative.
+3 - 256

(ETA latest reading)
If anyone has any advice/insight, I'm all ears. I've read so much about FD in the last 6 months, my mind boggles.

Hope & Aria (and her civvie sister Gira)

 

[Maggies Mom Debby]

Re: Aria *new* - ProZinc

I'm not familiar with your insulin, but you seem to be shooting all over the place. 2 units, 1 unit, 3 units. Is this what your vet told you to do? You may be dealing with constant rebound. If this was me, I would try 1 unit twice a day (BID) for 5-7 days and see what happens, but remember, I don't have any experience with your insulin. (Maggie was on Levemir).

So hang it there and someone more with more knowledge will be along soon.

 

[Sue and Oliver (GA)]

Welcome Hope and Aria,

Looks like you have really done your homework. Congrats on the hometesting. It makes such a difference! We used PZI but not ProZinc. They do seem to be similiar. You are good on this board, since there is good traffic here. You might want to copy your post and paste it over on the PZI board also (viewforum.php?f=24) It is not as busy as this board, but they are the experts on PZI.

Looks like 3 units may be too much, since it sent her too low to shoot at her regular time - and then she shot back up. You could try 2.5 units and see what you get. The nice thing with PZI is that you don't have to wait days until you change the dose. Usually people wait a cycle or two. But since she dipped so low on 3, if I were you, I would try 2.5.

A great way to actually "see" what is happening is to do a spreadsheet: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=16 It also makes it easier for others to see your progress.

 

[Larry and Kitties]

You are doing a good job. It is a lot easier to find the right dose if you feed consistently every day. Although most of us feed twice daily, it is OK to have a midday meal. However, you should do it consistently since the timing, amount and type (carb content) effects BGs.

 

[Ele & Blackie (GA)]

Hi Hope and Aria. Welcome to FDMB. I do hope you'll visit us in the PZI forum. I have lots of quesionts. You mentioned twice that you are going to try TR. I am assuming you mean Tight Regulation. Are you planning on using the sliding scale from Hodgkins? I don't know much about that protocol, but I'm sure there are others in the PZI forum that do know this. It also looked like you shot at a +6. Did I get that wrong? That is a little scary. I've never seen anyone shoot at mid-cycle.

I hope others with more experience will be on soon. I hope we'll see more of you here.

 

[Hope and Aria]

Hey there! Thanks so much for the replies. Since you all brought up some good points, let me give some more information.

We've been BID for the past 9 months. We had huge problems with Vetsulin (it's overlap was causing serious issues) so we switched to ProZinc (ouch on the cost increase!!) I've been prepping her to go to TR this last week. Making sure all dry food was completely out of her system and doing serious testing. That first day was a rebound day and second day was a recovery. Yesterday's reading look like a usual curve for my girl (except for that morning spike) I had listened to my vet (who is really supportive) that night and gave her 3 to try and counteract her middle of the night spikes, then got this mornings low reading. That was when I decided I was done with blind shooting (because if you're not looking at the numbers then the results are still the same as if I wasn't checking at all) and was going to go ahead with TR. Also, with the way her numbers tend to climb, the 6 hour bump seems like it might be effective with her (although I know I can't get up at 3 or 4 am for a middle of the night bump.)

Food - They are free fed wet FF all day. If the bowl is empty, it gets filled. My girl is still skinny minny and I'd like her to gain some weight. Her sister is also a big of a little piggy (she was the runt of the litter and that mentality has prevailed) and will push her poor skinny sister right out of the way and eat all the food. I also have 2 non-fuzzy babies here at home, so my fuzzy girls tend to eat when the kids aren't watching which is hard for a schedule. I do keep note of when Ari eats in my mind... should I note that in her charts? I work from home, so I'm a consistent data gatherer (except on weekends.)

I *SO* appreciate the responses and the help. If it weren't for the web and all the fabulous information I've been able to find in the last year, I'd still be lost, sitting on the floor crying with my poor girl.

 

[Sarah and Buzz]

Hi, Hope and Aria! Welcome to the board. You have certainly done your research on FD, which is wonderful.

The link in your profile to your spreadsheet (SS) doesn't work. It says that the SS could not be found. It sounds like you have it all ready to go, but in case you have questions about how to get it published, here is the link to the topic in Tech Forum: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=16

I would definitely suggest posting over in PZI to get answers about ProZinc specifically. It's a really good idea to post both here (Health) and in PZI, though, because Health gets more traffic than PZI sometimes, particularly late at night. This way if you have an urgent question, you may get a quicker answer.

It does look like you have been all over the place with dosing. I haven't used ProZinc (we used Idexx PZI) so I can't comment on specific dosing instructions for it, although it does seem to be pretty similar to PZI. Does Aria have ketones? If she is negative, you might want to consider reducing the dose and "starting over" as someone mentioned. At what dose you would begin would be best decided by the folks over in PZI, or someone who has much more dosing experience than I do. Since you have read so much, you have probably come across mention of ketones, but if not, you can read about them here: http://www.felinediabetes.com/ketones.htm

Keep up the good work and reading. It really does get easier, I promise. Everything is so overwhelming in the beginning, and I remember thinking a few times that if it were going to be like this forever, I didn't know how I was going to get through the rest of Buzz's life. Everyone here has been where you are, and we understand. Ask any question you can think of, and reach out for support when you need it.

 

[Gator & H (GA)]

Welcome,

Free feeding [or the closest thing you can mange] is the best policy for PZI [ProZinc]. Cats should eat 10-20 times per day [24h].

I'd focus on getting the kitty well regulated before going to TR and getting you and kitty used to managing the new insulin first. I would judge this by you being able to consistently keep your kitty on an even PS to PS at a sane BG level below 250 perhaps. You should have a feel for what a dose of X should be expected to do on deltas and where then next PS should end up. What do you mean by "TR?" It takes a bit for the cats to get used to new insulins [including ProZinc]. Also it can take up to a couple weeks for the dry food to work out of the system. Are you using U-100 syringes? If you are going to try "TR" then you should definitely be using U-100. For cat that are in the dialing in stages [beyond the finding a dose the cat is sensitive to], I usually recommend making changes in dose in very small increments of 0.2 or even less. I've found that H is very reactive to very small changes in dose to ProZinc.

I cannot access your spread sheet.

Sliding Scale which is seems might be what you are trying is also usually handled without taking time into account [how much time before or after PS].

I'm just trying to get a feel for what your strategy is exactly. Do you have a protocol that you are following?

Please feel free to join us in PZI.

 

[Hope and Aria]

Are you planning on using the sliding scale from Hodgkins? I don't know much about that protocol, but I'm sure there are others in the PZI forum that do know this. It also looked like you shot at a +6. Did I get that wrong? That is a little scary. I've never seen anyone shoot at mid-cycle.

Hey there!! Yes, it's Dr. Hodgkin's Tight Regulation protocol. I've been researching for a good 6 months, bought the book and read so many peoples blogs and numbers that I have to give it a shot. Ari's FD came out of nowhere. She had never had an off test at any time, so I have to hold on to the hope that if her body can be given some time to heal that *maybe* her pancreas will kick back in and she can get OTJ. I shot at +6 because she was on her upswing at that time and the amount I gave her in the morning was 1/4 of the minimum that she had ever gotten. She runs right at 6-8 hours for her nadir and the ProZinc takes about 2 hours to hit her system, so right when it should be coming on an upswing, that 1 unit should be kicking in.

Trust me, this is huge for me. I don't take any of it lightly and I've been 12 hour (2 hour tests) for the past few days to get a good idea of how the ProZinc works in her system and what her reaction would be. I've also done a lot of the same 12 hour tests through the last 6 months to see how she metabolizes insulin (all the different ones she's had) and the effect of food. The absolute top drop per unit of ProZinc that she's ever had was -150. The lowest was -70 and she averaged -130 (-70 was on rebound day). So with her current number of 259 and climbing, the 1 unit at most would bring her down to 100 if her BG didn't raise at all by the time it hit her system. From what all the reading says, if I can catch the rise and hold it down a bit at the +6, then it will help maintain her BG in the lower level that will give her a chance to heal. I don't remember the terminology for it... maybe a bump, or booster, but I do know that that's what I've been seeing. Still, I am watching her like a hawk and the poor kitty might actually start to roll her eyes when she sees me approach with the little black bag of testing supplies.

The science behind the +6 shot sounds logical. If it's below 150, you don't shoot and it's a sliding scale above that.

In our case, this might be what Ari needs. This morning her BG was low and I knew I wasn't going to shoot. With traditional BID, I'd have skipped that shot and then shot again in 12 hours to keep her on schedule. But with TR, I monitor her BG every few hours (only took 2) until she spikes over 150 and react accordingly. It's going to be a lot of work for a good while, but the end game is that my baby will be living in normal BG's for more than her short valley. If it becomes too much, I'll re-regulate her to traditional BID. Because of the insulin switch and the problems she's had with the dosages, this seemed like all signs were pointing to a change, so I took the deep breath and jumped in.

Again, thanks for the post. The questions are helpful to me just to go over with myself what we're doing. We had two distinct instances in the last 9 months where we were sure Ari wasn't going to make it through another week, so I treasure every day and hope that I'm doing the right thing and that it'll improve her quality of life as she's improved mine SO much over the last 15 years.

 

[Gator & H (GA)]

Yes, it's Dr. Hodgkin's Tight Regulation protocol.... We had two distinct instances in the last 9 months where we were sure Ari wasn't going to make it through another week, so I treasure every day and hope that I'm doing the right thing and that it'll improve her quality of life as she's improved mine SO much over the last 15 years.

FYI, most folk here have little to no experience with Dr. H's protocol and might even advise against it. The general approach to PZI on this board is a little different than Dr. H's. Of course it is your kitty and you are the one with the syringe in your hand. Hopefully those instances were not hypo related? The best place to get support for Dr. H's protocol would be on Dr. H's site? BTW, as time goes on the chances for remission fade slowly. That's not a 100% thing but more on the average. One kitty in PZI land who had been on PZI for quite some time just went into remission.

Hopefully the food you have chosen is below 9% carbs per Janet & Binky's list?
http://binkyspage.tripod.com/CanFoodNew.html

 

[Hope and Aria]

Welcome,

Free feeding [or the closest thing you can mange] is the best policy for PZI [ProZinc]. Cats should eat 10-20 times per day [24h].

I'd focus on getting the kitty well regulated before going to TR and getting you and kitty used to managing the new insulin first. I would judge this by you being able to consistently keep your kitty on an even PS to PS at a sane BG level below 250 perhaps. You should have a feel for what a dose of X should be expected to do on deltas and where then next PS should end up. What do you mean by "TR?" It takes a bit for the cats to get used to new insulins [including ProZinc]. Also it can take up to a couple weeks for the dry food to work out of the system. Are you using U-100 syringes? If you are going to try "TR" then you should definitely be using U-100. For cat that are in the dialing in stages [beyond the finding a dose the cat is sensitive to], I usually recommend making changes in dose in very small increments of 0.2 or even less. I've found that H is very reactive to very small changes in dose to ProZinc.

I cannot access your spread sheet.

Sliding Scale which is seems might be what you are trying is also usually handled without taking time into account [how much time before or after PS].

I'm just trying to get a feel for what your strategy is exactly. Do you have a protocol that you are following?

Please feel free to join us in PZI.

Hey Gator (FL fan?)! Ari's numbers even when considered well regulated were at times insane. I'd have to look up her old charts, but I've sat crying calling the vet with >500 readings and a perfectly normal acting cat. She's been on ProZinc for about 3 weeks. I'll definitely head over to the PZI board to see what's up over there. Got to go see what's going on with my spreadsheet so you can see. We are using Dr. Hodgkins sliding scale which I got from the board she is on. Are you dosing with U100 to get those small doses? I'm eyeballing the .5 unit with the U40.

Basically, we're starting Dr. Hodgkins Tight Regulation this week with a slight modification in that I'll be watching her numbers and her activity and adjust the dosage down (never up) per her reaction to ProZinc. Her problems were never hypo issues (except for when the Vetsulin went crazy and she didn't bottom out, but I could tell something was up). She tends to go through the roof (>500 readings) and the only thing we get from her is to pee on my bed. Other than that, she acts normal.

If you think it'll cause problems with me doing TR here, I can understand that and I'll keep searching for a support site. Over on her board, I'm getting no response from anyone and I'm in the stage of needing *someone* who understands the fear and sense of dread dealing with FD can cause.

 

[Hope and Aria]

Gator - just saw that you did say you were using U100 needles. I'll go pick some up and print out the conversion chart for dosage.

Thanks!

 

[Gator & H (GA)]

Hey Gator (FL fan?)! Ari's numbers even when considered well regulated were at times insane. I'd have to look up her old charts, but I've sat crying calling the vet with >500 readings and a perfectly normal acting cat. She's been on ProZinc for about 3 weeks. I'll definitely head over to the PZI board to see what's up over there. Got to go see what's going on with my spreadsheet so you can see. We are using Dr. Hodgkins sliding scale which I got from the board she is on. Are you dosing with U100 to get those small doses? I'm eyeballing the .5 unit with the U40.

Basically, we're starting Dr. Hodgkins Tight Regulation this week with a slight modification in that I'll be watching her numbers and her activity and adjust the dosage down (never up) per her reaction to ProZinc. Her problems were never hypo issues (except for when the Vetsulin went crazy and she didn't bottom out, but I could tell something was up). She tends to go through the roof (>500 readings) and the only thing we get from her is to pee on my bed. Other than that, she acts normal.

If you think it'll cause problems with me doing TR here, I can understand that and I'll keep searching for a support site. Over on her board, I'm getting no response from anyone and I'm in the stage of needing *someone* who understands the fear and sense of dread dealing with FD can cause.

I am a tow truck driver fan...

Please read the sticky over in PZI.

The problems you could have had before were because of the inappropriate diet [dry food and perhaps high carb wet - or maybe even other things going on with your kitty] not because of the insulin or the protocol. Many cats have gone into remission just by getting on a good DM appropriate diet and perhaps getting their other health problems under control [getting rid of infections etc.]

The only problems will be you not being able to get dosing advice here since that protocol here has few if any adherents. You are 1000% welcome here ["TR" or no "TR"], it just that I can think of only one person that might be able to help you and she is not on this board that often recently. And I even think her version of sliding scale has many similarities to mine, but she's better with TID dosing and such and just generally has way more experience than I.

You have my $0.02. :smile: My approach would differ than yours currently. I wish I could offer you more help with your approach.

Yes, the Dr. H board seems pretty quiet. It has been postulated here that there may be reasons for that...

The U-100 needles allow me to dose in 0.1u and even "0.05u" increments.

If remission is on your mind you can read about the recent ones on PZI here:
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/view ... =24&t=5659
None were "TR" per-say. But some end up just being in that territory though careful, persistent and methodical management of the disease.

 

[Sue and Oliver (GA)]

We may not call it TR, but we certainly can give you varied advice (as you have seen). The difference is that is no "cookbook" here, but general guidelines. You will have to be willing to ask questions and then make up your own mind of what you think will work best for Aria. I have heard that Dr. Hodgkins is no longer directly affiliated with the site and that it is not very active. (Someone correct me if I am wrong.)

When we used PZI, we did vary the amount given, depending on the preshot and nadir numbers. We generally tried to stay with one dose for at least two days before adjusting. We did stick with the 12 hour window - mainly because we felt uncomfortable shooting off times and keeping all that straight.

 

[LynnLee + Mousie]

hi there and welcome.

i am familiar with the protocol you are going to use as are several members that have been around for awhile. the protocol has gone a bit aside with the discontinuation of idexx's pzi and it's use with any other insulin has yet to be proven in my opinion but with the prozinc coming out it will be interesting to see if it works. i actually was a client of Dr. Hodgkins before her getting out of hands on veterinary care and liked her a lot. some of her thoughts and beliefs, just so you know, are or were considered controversial by some but it's no reason to toss everything out the window that's for sure. for those that aren't real familiar with her protocol you do shoot anytime after nadir if the BG is over 150 (which with the old pzi used to be roughly at +6 for a lot of cats). i will say that it didn't work for us as i cannot do all day testing and on the days i could, shooting every 6 to 6.5 hours actually made Mousie's numbers worse so we went to set dosing 12 hours apart and that has worked better. if i could test and shoot all day long i definitely would if it would benefit her but so far i haven't won the lottery or retired so we do what we can as does everyone in this dance

eta: the ydc site is pretty inactive lately. the rules there have gotten very very strict is my understanding and some broke off and started a new site. i'm not sure though if Dr. H has much to do with either one though anymore. the new site if you are interested is diabeticcatcare.com you do have to register and be approved if i remember correctly. i haven't been able to frequent that one much since it's inception and with Mousie being the oddball that she is i just read and learn anymore it seems

i think you will get help here just fine as anyone who has been here probably 2-3 years or more is familiar with it. it may take a little longer to get a response than some just because the shall i say "oldies" that used, studied, and went thru those days of TR don't seem to be around as much since most people that used it have moved on to lantus or levemir.

 

[Terry and Puttz]

Giara, Hi and welcome! New ProZinc user here (10 days and counting) and learning everything from here that is important as a new user...Come over to the PZI board, getting more active everyday...Sounds like you are doing just fine, and no more crying, ok? We have SugarKitty's to take care of!

 

[Hope and Aria]

it may take a little longer to get a response than some just because the shall i say "oldies" that used, studied, and went thru those days of TR don't seem to be around as much since most people that used it have moved on to lantus or levemir.

Hey there Cindy!

I telecommute from home with Ari sitting on the desk next to me, so I'm very lucky to be able to monitor as closely as I do. She's the perfect programmer cat, I just have to remember to close my laptop when leaving the desk so her edits don't cause extra work.

We've never had Lantus or Levemir offered. I'm hoping ProZinc stays around a while as I think I might go completely grey if we have to switch another insulin. My main goal is to get her to level off a bit. Even the vets have said she's a unique cat. She's asymptomatic at extreme highs until it gets really serious and she doesn't maintain regulation.

Thanks for the advice!

 

[Hope and Aria]

Giara, Hi and welcome! New ProZinc user here (10 days and counting) and learning everything from here that is important as a new user...Come over to the PZI board, getting more active everyday...Sounds like you are doing just fine, and no more crying, ok? We have SugarKitty's to take care of!

Hey Terry! Puttz is a fabulous name for a cat, btw. I laughed when I saw his picture. I'll have to get a pic of my Ari up. I'm going to head over and do an intro on the PZI board next. I've shut down the water works for now, hoping to keep that valve permanently closed :mrgreen:

 

[Jen & Squeak]

Hi Hope!

In the past there were members here like Cindy who used Dr H's technique with a bit of FDMB thrown in; YDC and FDMB did NOT get along in the past at all...The new site has some of the people who were members of the old site but also new members as well and I've no idea what their experience level is. Here you will find more lantus users due to the demise of Idexx but that doesn't mean there aren't folks who can help.

My suggestions include posting on the pzi ISG and also including a note in your signature that you are using a sliding scale, that way people won't freak at you changing doses!

Jen

 

[Joanna & Bix (GA)]

Hi there! I haven't had time to absorb everything in this thread, but I just wanted to say that I have tried the YDC approach to some point and while I agree with some aspects of it, I actually found that my cat did well on PZI BID to my surprise. I was so sure that wouldn't work that I tried a lot of other things (without great success) until I finally stuck with BID and things came together.

Not saying that's right for your cat, but I just wanted to mention it so you'll know that it is possible to get them regulated with BID. When the #s are going high, my personal preference is to shoot a little early +10 or +11 or so to head off the worst of them (without raising the dose), rather than shooting a lot earlier. For me, the calculations, extra testing, etc. got overwhelming shooting earlier than that. I found the results could be very different based on when I shot (+6 is a very different beast than +9 for instance) and at some point I started to feel that for me it wasn't safe to shoot that early, just too many unknowns.

As for the scale, I found the low end of the doses to be too low, and the high end too high. Many here who have used sliding scales have found that variances around 0.1 or 0.2u are all that are needed. My cat did well on a fixed dose actually, regardless of PS, so I can't say too much on that front.

Just a note on the calculations you have of how much drop per unit - I found calculations like that worked pretty well for me with Vetsulin, but with PZI I have found a lot more variation. If the dose is too low by even 0.2u sometimes you will get very little drop at all, and then you bump it up by that 0.2 and all of a sudden you get a huge drop.

I would probably try 2u BID, and raise in 0.2u increments every 3rd or 4th day if needed, if it were me. But then I've experimented with other approaches to the point where I got sick of them, so that's just me. I totally support people trying what they need to for their cat!!!

 

[Joanna & Bix (GA)]

just wanted to add that you are very welcome here, regardless of approach!!! we have lots of variation in PZI Land - some people have shot YDC-style for a few days to get a jump on the #s, some have done TID, some like me have jumped all around... it's a mixed bag, and I've seen several newly diagnosed cats go OTJ here, it's a pretty hopeful & positive place really!

also generally when we are shooting BID here, if you get a low PS most would say to retest in 1/2 hour or an hour (depending on how low it is, etc.) and then shoot once you get to 150... we use the term BID loosely

 

[Gator & H (GA)]

Man I just lost a whole bunch I had typed. Anyway, the long and the short is that for PZI here most go with a variant of the SLGS or the SS with the minor variation. I'm in the SS camp. If you would like you can search "sliding scale" in the PZI forum and you will probably get back some good results. If you want please post in the PZI forum and ask me for my spread sheet and I'll be happy to share with you. Joanna happens to be a very fine [and successful!!!] practitioner of the consistent dosing category.

Check out other spread sheets of cats on PZI that have had success is also a good way to learn.

As long as you are feeding below 9% carbs [as %kcal] wet food only, are home testing and using U-100 syringes you have cleared some of the basic beginner hurdles.

And whether or not you go your own path please keep us updated of your progress. I guarantee you there is not one person on this board who does not love reading about success stories!

Speaking of programmer cats, I think I'm being interrupted by one nowwwwwwwwwwwww' 'oisdf; ;JFBASDJNM.;;LKJJKljlkjdsfa;9p82r / [translation: it's shot time dad]

 

[Hope and Aria]

Gator - LOL! They are both on FF low carb. I've gotten fairly good at doing the calculation in my head although for a good while I stuck to Janet & Binky's list only (or stood in the aisle with my list searching for items that matched my highlights). I'm considering switching to EVO 95% because our local pet pantry does home delivery (and I like to support my local businesses) but I have to go pick up a "test" can because my girls are little princesses who will most politely refuse to eat if it's not to their liking. I'm going to head out to get the U100's today because I think that will help with the dosage.

Joanna - I think what you're talking about it more the approach I'm looking to take. Ari tends to have weird spikes, so when I test her at her usual shot time she's low but then goes way high within a few hours. For example, last night at her shot time she was 173, so I didn't shoot. Two hours later she was 517, so I gave her 2 units. This morning she was at a respectable 276 (for her is excellent.) She's consistent only in her inconsistencies and has been for the last year. The vet had told me to adjust to earlier or later secondary shots depending on her numbers. But she also wanted me to give her more at night than in the morning. However, after reading Gator's posts, I'm thinking that maybe her upping her to 3 at night is just too big of a jump for the ProZinc. I'll keep an eye on her drop points as you suggested. Mostly I use them to avoid giving too much since the sliding scale seems a bit high on dosage for her higher numbers.

So today, she's had her 2 units in the morning. I'm hoping to get her to eat more than yesterday (she's a sneaky eater, doesn't like watchers) and then test her in the afternoons. Yesterday's .5 unit bump in the afternoon kept her in the 200's all day which was nice to see. Usually she spends such a short time in the lower numbers. I am hoping that she'll start evening out a bit and can get back to only needing 2 a day shots. Back on PZI, she had some good runs of regulation, but the switch to Vetsulin sent everything into Wonkyville.

Jen - That's a fabulous suggestion. I'm going to edit my signature now

 

[Hope + (((Baby)))GA]

Just want to say "Hi" from one Hope to another. I'm still using IDEXX, I stockpiled, and when I have to switch it will either be ProZinc or BCP PZI. By the time I run out of IDEXX Mishka will have been diabetic for 7+ years so I have no dreams of remission. I hate having to switch and wish the Humulins, especially U, would come back again.

 

[Joanna & Bix (GA)]

Ari tends to have weird spikes, so when I test her at her usual shot time she's low but then goes way high within a few hours. For example, last night at her shot time she was 173, so I didn't shoot. Two hours later she was 517, so I gave her 2 units.

That's fairly par actually - PZI (Idexx at least) is known for it's dramatic poop-out. She could be having some reaction from her liver if she isn't used to the good #s, or regular rebound is possible too. I saw similar things with Bix before I got him regulated - a nice day all in the 100s, and then a 500 at +12. ?!? In your case I probably would have shot something on the 173, or restested in 1/2 hour if I didn't yet have data on shooting that low and wanted to wait for a 200 or so to shoot. Those higher #s should settle down if she can spend some sustained time in good #s, and/or if there is rebound that may need to clear itself up.

On your spreadsheet, feel free to copy from one of ours if you want. Most people use the 12/12 spreadsheet that you can find instructions for on Tech. Mine is different because I have done a lot of shooting at non-12/12 times and the PZIers requested I use the format I have now. I'm one of the few with this format though, as most people right now are shooting mostly 12/12 and using that format. I don't think you will be able to fit what you are doing in the 12/12 format. Some non-PZIers think my spreadsheet is wacko, but it is what many of the PZIers are used to seeing, and it is easy to maintain. Up to you though, but wanted to mention that in case you are interested.

 

[Gator & H (GA)]

I've gotten fairly good at doing the calculation in my head although for a good while I stuck to Janet & Binky's list only (or stood in the aisle with my list searching for items that matched my highlights).

Which calculation is that? Using the guaranteed analysis is a very poor way to approximate things. It can be a rough estimate at best and completely misleading at worst. Many here have the REAL numbers for food not on J&B's list if you search or ask. And for those not on the list and with not other source one can attempt to follow J&B's instructions http://binkyspage.tripod.com/foodfaq.html on getting the correct numbers. And if in the end you are still unable to find the real numbers, I'd be more than happy to try to help you with at least trying to get the blood [real DM or AF data] from the turnip hands of the manufacturers.

 

[Hope and Aria]

Hope - Hi fellow Hope!! There's not that many of us and it's a good name to have - especially here

Joanna - love your spreadsheet. I think that would work for me. I like to make lots of notes. I'll go hunt it down.

Gator - I was using the guaranteed food analysis and then comparing with the numbers on the chart. I was planning on getting to the store this weekend to get EVO 95% Turkey and Chicken to see if my girls will eat that. Do you have any info on that one?

Well, just peeked in and Ari's eating again (phew!) Going to give her another test in a bit to see how she's doing. And because you all are the only ones who will appreciate this. I attempted to get a stick on my civvie kitty (just to see what numbers she runs) and it was a lost cause. So today I am thankful that if one of my girls had to get sick and get stuck constantly, it was the one who lets me do it. Going for the bright side today

 

[Gator & H (GA)]

Gator - I was using the guaranteed food analysis and then comparing with the numbers on the chart. I was planning on getting to the store this weekend to get EVO 95% Turkey and Chicken to see if my girls will eat that. Do you have any info on that one?

Evo is one of the few that have an as-fed or dry matter analysis on the web. Here is the webpage for that:
http://www.evopet.com/products/default. ... na&id=1662

If you feed the numbers into J&B's excel spread sheet and convert to %kcal it is:
Pro - Fat - Carbs
25 - 72.7 - 2.3

The P is rather excellent though at 155mg per 100kcal.

The Ca ratio of that food that I calculate is 1.39 which is a little high [ideally it should be 1.0-1.3 with approx 1.17 thought to be ideal]. Maybe I miscalculated it? But thought I would at least mention it.

 

[Jen & Squeak]

If that is right, then that is a huge percentage of fat! Fat should be 45-50% I believe...

 

[Gator & H (GA)]

If that is right, then that is a huge percentage of fat! Fat should be 45-50% I believe...

I 100% agree. You can do the calc yourself with Janey & Binky's Excel sheet yourself located here:
http://binkyspage.tripod.com/foodfaq.html
In fact, I encourage others to do it. Her's does not calculate Ca ratios. Or you can cross reference the numbers on the Evo site with the spread sheet I used here:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key ... mF0NkE1VXc
(my super fancy conditional formatting didn't translate to the google version but it does the trick)

Wellness Grain Free Chicken is 66% Kcal from fat as a matter of comparison and that is high.

If one is looking for a well balanced food, a number of the Merrick flavors are very well balanced. Unfortunately H will no eat them so I cook our "food improver" [high protein, low carb and low fat] that I mix with Wellness to get the balance right.