Advice needed: Wet food seemed to increase blood glucose levels

[Abbi]

Hi all! I’ve frequented this forum a lot since my cat Smudge’s diagnosis in June last year, so I want to indirectly thank everyone for all the great advice here.
A little background on Smudge: she’s a 6 yr old calico weighing around 10/11 pounds. She takes two doses of Lantus, 2 units morning and night.

She is a dry food addict! She’s on the Purina DM dry food. I have desperately tried to switch her over to wet food many times, but doing it “cold turkey” didn’t work, so recently I attempted again by mixing the dry food in with small portions of wet food. She’s quite picky, and I finally found a chicken recipe by Tikicat she seemed to tolerate (Luau succulent chicken recipe). She initially ate all the dry food around it but once I held it out to her she was open to trying it and ate a little bit. I did this for 3 nights in a row and noticed that her levels rose to 20.2 mmol/L! I changed nothing else from her routine, so I was scared the wet food was the culprit. She’s been on just dry food again for a week, and her levels are at 14.9.

As with most diabetic cat owners, I hope she will one day go into remission, but with her levels and being on dry food i’m unconfident in this happening for her. My main question is; does wet food cause an initial spike in levels, do things start to go back to normal? Was it the mixing of the two foods? I can’t see another way she will eat if I only offer her wet food at the moment.
Also how much wet food would be enough to keep her full until feeding time? She is consistently waking me up 2/3 hours before feeding time every morning.
Upon research it seemed the wet food was suitable for her, I have tried fancy feast pate in the past and she didn’t take to it, although i’m willing to try again.

I currently have cans of Tikicat after dark chicken and duck in broth and chicken in broth, and Weruva chicken and turkey recipe to try. These all seemed suitable with their contents for her in terms of protein/carbs. I’m in Canada, and any recs for a picky cat are appreciated! She doesn’t like fish, only turkey and chicken.

I moved away from my hometown and her current vet won’t do phone appointments, so in the meantime any advice for things I can try to get her to eat properly is much appreciated! Thanks so much ^^

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

Hi and welcome Abbi and Smudge. I'm glad you have decided to post!
My first questions is when do you test the BG and how often do you do it?
It is most unlikey the low carb wet food is raising the BG. What is a lot more likely is, Smudge is dropping lower (after have the wet food) and then bouncing up higher again as a reaction to the lower numbers.
Here is an explanation about bouncing

• Bouncing - Bouncing is simply a natural reaction to what the cat's system perceives as a BG value that is "too low". "Too low" is relative. If a cat is used to BGs in the 200's, 300's, or higher for a long time, then even a BG that drops to 150 can trigger a "bounce". Bouncing can also be triggered if the blood glucose drops too low and/or too fast. The pancreas, then the liver, release glucogon, glycogen and counter-regulatory hormones. The end result is a dumping of "sugar" into the bloodstream to save the cat from going hypoglycemic from a perceived low. The action is often referred to as "liver panic" or "panicky liver". *Usually*, a bounce will clear kitty's system within 3 days (6 cycles).

If you can get her onto a low carb wet diet, you will have a much better chance of regulation and then if you are lucky, remission. If you keep her on a high carb dry food diet, you will have very little chance of remission.

I would not try and do the change over cold turkey. Do it as slowly as you need to with the end game being Smudge eating a fully low carb wet diet.
If you could setup a spreadsheet and enter some data we can help you with everything but we need BG data.
Here is a link to the spreadsheet and other info including a hypo box. Do you have one set up?
HELP US HELP YOU

How often are you feeding her. Are you giving a good meal before the insulin and then at least 2 snacks during the cycles? If she is asking for food during the cycle, she is hungry.

Ask lots of questions

 

[squeem3]

This thread discusses brands in Canada: https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/canadian-made-diabetic-safe-foods.298039/

Transition food slowly. You may even have to remove one kibble piece daily over a period of weeks to months until your cat is eating mostly canned. Healthier low carb alternatives to dry food is freeze dried raw and air dried raw but these are more expensive than dry food. Some people feed a "better" dry food such as Young Again or Dr. Elsey's.

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

As noted in the post above, there are only a few dry foods that are low in carbs -- Dr. Elsey's Clean Protein and Young Again Zero Carb.

Have you tried feeding Smudge freeze dried or air dried raw foods? Stella and Chewy's and ZiwiPeak are good options to try.

 

[Abbi]

Thanks for the helpful reply! And thank you for explaining bouncing to me, I wasn’t aware that was a thing. I test her BG levels at night usually every other day to three days.
I test after she has eaten but before giving her insulin shot. This is what the vet has advised me to do.
I know I have to test more frequently but her blood sugar has also been around 14 mmol/L or higher where the vet says the ideal is 5-7mmol/L. (i’m not sure the conversion to have the levels represented as 200,300 etc that are used as i’m not familiar with that level of measurement)

I will look into setting up a spreadsheet, when I viewed one briefly it looked so confusing! I know it’s in the best interest of Smudge so i’m willing to learn

I feed her 1/3 cups of the Purina DM at both 9am and 9pm.
I only give her one snack around 6:30-7:30 so I will start to implement two. Do the timings have to be strict like the feeding times? Could you explain what you mean by “cycles”? is that the 12 hour time between her shots?

Thanks again for the help, Smudge and I really appreciate your time!

 

[Abbi]

Hi and welcome Abbi and Smudge. I'm glad you have decided to post!
My first questions is when do you test the BG and how often do you do it?
How often are you feeding her. Are you giving a good meal

I posted my reply above, I didn’t realize I had to keep the quotes in! Forgive me, I’m still learning how to use this forum :,)

 

[Abbi]

Transition food slowly. You may even have to remove one kibble piece daily over a period of weeks to months until your cat is eating mostly canned. Healthier low carb alternatives to dry food is freeze dried raw and air dried raw but these are more expensive than dry food. Some people feed a "better" dry food such as Young Again or Dr. Elsey's.

Thank you for the link! I’ll definitely check that out. I tried out a different kind of wet food and she didn’t seem to like it at all tonight. I’m hoping she’ll be willing to try it once she gets hungry in the morning, but she’s picky! I’ll have to stick with it and hope she eases into it.
Unfortunately I’m not in a position to feed a raw diet. I will look into those dry foods you mentioned and compare them to what I’m currently feeding her. The ultimate goal is wet food though, so fingers crossed she realizes how good it is for her! lol
Thanks again!

 

[Abbi]

As noted in the post above, there are only a few dry foods that are low in carbs -- Dr. Elsey's Clean Protein and Young Again Zero Carb.

Have you tried feeding Smudge freeze dried or air dried raw foods? Stella and Chewy's and ZiwiPeak are good options to try.

I’ve looked into freeze dried raw and it’s unfortunately not in my budget, and I don’t want to offer her something that I can’t always keep up with giving her. Would it be a viable option to feed a combination of raw with another type of food?
I will look more into air dried raw but I assume it’s of similar price.

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

I posted my reply above, I didn’t realize I had to keep the quotes in! Forgive me, I’m still learning how to use this forum :,)

Its all good! its just easier if you are answering someone to put in quotes so we can see what you are referring to.

I test after she has eaten but before giving her insulin shot. This is what the vet has advised me to do.

The correct routine is test the BG first, then feed, then give the insulin in that order.
Please always test before every dose to make sure it is safe to give the insulin. Just because the preshot has been around 14 doesn't mean it will stay there.
Lantus dosing is based on the nadir or lowest point, not the preshot BG so that is why it is important to always try and get a midcycle test done.

I will look into setting up a spreadsheet, when I viewed one briefly it looked so confusing! I know it’s in the best interest of Smudge so i’m willing to learn

If you have any trouble setting up the SS @Bandit's Mom will help you

(i’m not sure the conversion to have the levels represented as 200,300 etc that are used as i’m not familiar with that level of measurement)

To change the MMOL/L to the US numbers you multiple by 18

feed her 1/3 cups of the Purina DM at both 9am and 9pm.
I only give her one snack around 6:30-7:30 so I will start to implement two. Do the timings have to be strict like the feeding times? Could you explain what you mean by “cycles”? is that the 12 hour time between her shots?

A cycle is the time between the shots. So there are two cycles a day.
If you give the insulin at 9am and 9 pm the first cycle starts at 9am and finishes at 8.59pm and then the next cycle starts.
I would give 2 or 3 snacks during the first 6 or 7 hours of each cycle. It doesn't have to be an exact time like the preshot meal. try and feed the wet food if you can I know you are trying to do the swap over .
Be aware as you do the swap, the BGs might drop lower as the carb content of the food lowers and you may need to give less insulin. That is another reason we need you to be testing before every dose and during every cycle

 

[squeem3]

Some people do feed a mix of canned and some kind of raw. Freeze dried raw and air dried raw (complete meals, not the treat ones) are pricey so it's not doable for everyone. They're probably on par for price with prescription dry food but the bags are smaller. Frozen raw is even more expensive and you need to have freezer space for it. Some people feed homemade raw which is more cost effective but not everyone can or wants to do that. Feed whatever works for you and your cat. Mix in some freeze dried raw or air dried raw if and when you can. If you can feed a better dry food such as Young Again instead of Purina DM that may make all the difference in your cat's blood glucose levels. Ideally no dry food should be fed but you do what you have to do. Just keep in mind that as long as there's dry food in the diet, your cat's blood glucose levels will be on the higher side and the insulin dose may be more than a few units.

 

[Lisa and Witn (GA)]

I’ve looked into freeze dried raw and it’s unfortunately not in my budget, and I don’t want to offer her something that I can’t always keep up with giving her. Would it be a viable option to feed a combination of raw with another type of food?
I will look more into air dried raw but I assume it’s of similar price.

Another option is to make your own food. I started doing that when one of my cats was diagnosed with IBD. I have started feeding all of my cats with the same food. The proteins I feed are primarily chicken and pork loin. I compared the cost between making my food and feeding them canned Friskies and there was very little difference in my monthly cost to feed 8 cats.

This is the recipe I use. I do cook the meat first and then after it has cooled, mix in the supplements with the cooking water. All of my supplements I get from Amazon. The only thing I substitute is the eggs. I use powdered whole eggs instead of fresh eggs. https://www.rawfeedingforibdcats.org/balanced-recipe-for-use-with-raw-or-cooked-proteins.html

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

Like Lisa, I make my own raw diet. I don't buy all of the supplements separately. I use a pre-mix which is a powder that contains all of the supplements. I use a product made by FoodFurLife. I was hesitant to suggest a homemade raw diet since it sounds like Smudge is convinced that dry food is the only thing that's edible. The headache is that the majority of the kibble that's available is high in carbs. The few low carb options are pricey.

 

[Lisa and Witn (GA)]

Like Lisa, I make my own raw diet. I don't buy all of the supplements separately. I use a pre-mix which is a powder that contains all of the supplements. I use a product made by FoodFurLife. I was hesitant to suggest a homemade raw diet since it sounds like Smudge is convinced that dry food is the only thing that's edible. The headache is that the majority of the kibble that's available is high in carbs. The few low carb options are pricey.

I have used FoodFurLife and also EZComplete. Both are good. The main reason I decided to buy the individual supplements is that it makes it more economical to make several large batches at a time. Usually when I make cat food I use about 25 - 30 lbs of meat. With as many cats that I have they still go though it quickly.

 

[squeem3]

If you decide raw of any kind just isn't doable for you, it's ok Maybe you can look into it in the future. For now try to get your cat off most of the dry food and on canned food.

Have you tried crushing dry food up into basically powder and sprinkling that onto canned food? Dry foods are coated with animal digest or other ingredient that makes it super yummy and addicting to cats. FortiFlora has a similar effect..

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

@Lisa and Witn (GA) Lisa -- FoodFurLife is the company that makes EZComplete. I make much smaller batches and opt for convenience!

 

[Lisa and Witn (GA)]

@Lisa and Witn (GA) Lisa -- FoodFurLife is the company that makes EZComplete. I make much smaller batches and opt for convenience!

I understand. When I was feeding it to just one, I used the premixes also. I think the other premix I used was TC Feline. It has been several years since I used a premix.