ADVICE NEEDED: I have no clue what to do...

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Mom2Missy

Mom2Missy

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I gave 0.5 units of Prozinc this morning. Her glucose this evening is 401. I called the vet, and she said to increase her to 1.5 units of insulin. She wants Missy started on the prescription diabetic dry food. I told her I had read that diabetic cats need to eat canned food. The vet said that the dry food is fine because of the fiber. She said by switching to the prescription food she will be regulated sooner. I told her I bought some raw food to try, but the vet said she is completely against a raw diet. She says not to believe everything I read online. I have no clue what to do. I'm so torn. I lost a cat (Ty) to diabetes last year. He was diagnosed and died 5 days later. I feel like I can't do anything right. I lost Ty because I had no clue he had anything wrong with him. Now I feel like Missy is getting worse even though I am doing everything I can to help her. I plan on trying the raw food tomorrow, but I don't know what to do about the insulin tonight. Should I give the 1.5 like the vet said? Should I try 1? Should I try the 0.5 again? I feel like I keep asking the same questions over and over again, but I just don't want to screw this up. Thanks for the help.
 
Re: I have no clue what to do...

first, take a deep breath. this isn't a race.

second, and i know the slaps are coming, your vet is an idiot :smile:

ask her what the hell fiber has to do with diabetes. and then ask her what about the word "prescription" means faster regulation. then tell her she needs to update her education on diabetes and feline nutrition. there's tons of literature out there about carbohydrates roll in diabetes and the benefits of raw diet, etc....

but in all honesty, it might be easier to just find a new vet.

i am not up on the finer details of everyone who has joined in the last few weeks so i'm not sure how long since your diagnosis and being put on insulin but if it's only been in the last few weeks, noone can expect perfect numbers that quickly and on a pzi type insulin.

if you've been giving .5 units for several days now and numbers are all that high, i'd consider going to 1 unit but not all the way up to 1.5 just like that.

i'd make the switch to proper diet and steer clear of prescription let alone dry foods. prescription equals more markup on the product and more money out of your wallet and dry equals possibilities like dehydration and infections and all kinds of things.

if she doesn't want you to believe what you see online then tell her you or her can get it direct from the horse's mouth by calling Dr. Lisa Pierson and doing a consult with a very experienced educated well respected veterinarian and you can read any number of other books and research articles and journals by others in her field stating the same things you have already learned.

my cat will have her 4 year anniversary this month since being diagnosed. if i had listened to my original vet, i doubt that would be happening considering she worsened 3 weeks after they diagnosed her and could care less about it. "just keep your checkup appt next week and we'll see how she's doing" was all i got out of them. with proper knowledge and a new good vet, Mousie's still going as strong today as she was 4 years ago and that urinary tract infection the first vet wasn't concerned about was fixed a very long time ago. and i believed everything i read online :-D
 
Re: I have no clue what to do...

Hi first I can not give advice but I can tell you my story. My Trey was DX 05/05/10 he`s BG was 26....Are you hometesting. If not go get a meter and strips and take control of your kitty`s health. My vet was not inpressed but I told her these people know what they are doing. So I listen to the advice I got here. I have 4 cats now all are on can food Fancy Feast Friskie you can fine a list no gravy except for low numbers. Just read the stickies. My Trey went on Lantus insulin and guess what 2 months and with the people (not my vet)he has been off insulin for 33 days. They know what diabetes is and how to get it under control or even better remission. Why? Because they live with it day in and day out. They all have cats that are diabetic. Dry food is not good for cats but the insulin you have your baby on is fast acting Lantus is slow and lastes 12 hours. You only give the smallest amt to start and go slow. Put ADVICE in your subject line . Really good help here. Vets have so much more to deal with on day to day bases. These are expects in this field. Please calm down and read and ask questions. you and Your kitty will be fine..Hugs Angels and healing green light coming your way.. Kath been there too!!!
 
Re: I have no clue what to do...

I am sorry to hear that your vet isn't on board with an appropriate diabetic diet. Prozinc is a great insulin, as is Lantus. It usually has a 10-14 hour duration for kitties, so it is not fast acting like the Humulins are. The raw food diet you want to try sounds like a great idea! Please make sure that it has all the vitamins and supplements our kitties need too. There are many people on here that feed either commercial or homemade raw diets and swear by it. As for which dose to go with - jumping up a whole unit at once is usually not a good idea unless ketones are present. As long as he is negative for ketones, I'd go with upping the dose to 1u personally.
 
Re: I have no clue what to do...

real quick i want to make sure of something since Mom2Missy appears fairly new (??) and may not know this. in countries like Canada and England they use a different numbering system than we do here in the States so that 26 that Kath mentions is not what you think it is. to turn that into a number you'd understand here in the States, multiply by 18, so on diagnosis, her kitty's number was 468 which is pretty standard at diagnosis

eta: ok, took a quick look at your spreadsheet. that dose is hopping around too much in all honesty and it's waaaaaaay too early to be expecting better than what you've got. i'd change the diet asap to raw or a low carb wet food and even consider staying at the .5 unit while doing so to see what happens. you are getting lower numbers but you're getting bounces because his body isn't used to those numbers and then you are reacting to the higher numbers by wanting to shoot more insulin. that equals the biggest rollercoaster you can imagine.

just as one acclimates to walking into an air conditioned room, their bodies have to acclimate to lower glucose numbers and that can take a few weeks to happen
 
Re: I have no clue what to do...

Thank you Cindy I can`t believe I forgot that 26= 468BG been off the stuff 1 month and forgot these importants things... HUGS Cindy :mrgreen: still green Kath
 
no problem Kath :)
and if i come across a little blunt about anything i apologize as i'm a little raw from losing one of my babies last night and just being a bit frustrated with life in general today.
 
You're getting great advice already, I'm glad you're hometesting. That's the most important thing you can do, well that and diet.

If your cat does not care for the raw food diet, don't despair. Many cats do great on canned food only. Canned such as Wellness, EVO or grocery brands like the gluten free varieties of Fancy Feast, Friskies or 9-lives. You can check the food charts or feel free to ask what type we feed. My cats eats mostly Fancy Feast Gourmet Beef Feast, Gourmet Chicken Feast, Chicken and Liver, the ones that are loaf, Gourmet Feast.

As Cindy mentioned, some cats can be on insulin for years, Tucker's going on five years in November. Others can go off insulin just on a short term of insulin and changing the food. Two of my recently adopted FDs are diet controlled at this time. They may stay that way, they may not. The important thing is you're learning to hometest and you're learning about food.

Take your time, ask questions, realize that you need to work with your vet, but also know that many of us here have been in the trenches treating feline diabetes for years and the collective knowledge of the folks on this board has saved me time and again. I hope that you too will find this place to be as helpful and I know you have one very lucky kitty to have you doing so much to help.
 
I switched her from a dry food to Fancy Feast Elegant Medleys. She eats the shredded chicken and turkey. I think they are 9-10% carbs. She refuses to eat the pureed/pate/loaf canned foods. This Fancy Feast is shredded "meat" and she seems to enjoy that. I find that there aren't a lot of shredded varieties available. I know that it can take awhile to get regulated. The problem started her first couple of days on insulin. Her glucose would be in the mid 200s in the morning, and the low 100s in the evening. That got me so excited. I was so hopeful that changing her food would get her off insulin in no time. So now I am disappointed to see her numbers going the opposite way. I just need to take a deep breath, keep doing what I've been doing, and have faith that everything will work out.
 
Mom2Missy said:
I gave 0.5 units of Prozinc this morning. Her glucose this evening is 401. I called the vet, and she said to increase her to 1.5 units of insulin. She wants Missy started on the prescription diabetic dry food. I told her I had read that diabetic cats need to eat canned food. The vet said that the dry food is fine because of the fiber. She said by switching to the prescription food she will be regulated sooner. I told her I bought some raw food to try, but the vet said she is completely against a raw diet. She says not to believe everything I read online.
First I'd like to say that feeding prescription food at the beginning can be fine as long as it is canned. Nutter started with canned Purina DM and went off the juice in three weeks. That said, however, you can feed low carb canned food from pet stores and do well. In my humble opinion (and every cat is different) if you can be consistent at the beginning while you are shooting, home testing etc., then all you need to think about is the units of Prozinc. Prozinc, by the way, is what Nutter had for his three weeks of insulin. My vet tried to get me to go with the dry but I can honestly say that she listened to what I wanted for my cat and was opened to home testing and low carb diets in general. I still feed Nutter the Purina DM, but told my vet last night that I would be gradually transitioning him to other low carb canned foods because I want more muscle meat and less by-products in his diet. She was absolutely in agreement with me and agreed that I will continue to home test during the transition to see how he does.

The point is that there are a lot of folks who don't believe in the prescription food for financial and other reasons. But I think that for at least a month or so, prescription diet food given exclusively, and assuming your cat will eat it, will take one variable out of the equation.


Wishing you well with your Sugar Baby.

Linda
Nutter and Boo's Mom
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
I know you are discouraged, particularly as it looked good at first. You can stick with the 1/2 unit or the one unit (if you are more comfortable) but I agree with the others, you have to give it a while. The deep breath is good - several, several times a day. Missy didn't get diabetes in a week. Some take months or years to get regulated or into remission. But you are hometesting, and giving her a good diet so she is safe, and you are doing all you can to help her.

Agree with everyone else - your vet is wrong. Wet "prescription" food is 13% carbs but at least it is wet. Dry food is not good for diabetics, prescription or not: http://www.catinfo.org. Dr. Lisa Peterson has an overwhelming case for not feeding dry.

The Medleys are generally 9-11% (Wild Salmon and White Meat Chicken are 15%) http://binkyspage.tripod.com/CanFoodNew.html That is at the upper end of our suggested 8-10%. It could be that your kitty is really carb sensitive, but changing the food to a lower carb may be a problem if she is picky. If I were you, I would keep feeding her what she will eat.

Take tests at least at shot time and at +5-6 and put on your spreadsheet. The picture will become clearer.
 
HI I'm a newbie with a cat that DID look like tucker but now is skinny and in poor health. Khan is his name. He was diagnosed in May 2010 and has tried several foods. He has allergies so it makes getting a food tough. I have heard wonderful things about Purina DM regarding the first few weeks etc and many cats have turned around and were able to get back to maintance foods. My cat did not like the Purina DM as well as other foods so I tried EVO Herring and Salmon.. that he did like (yeah!). Right now on the EVO webpage there is an offer to receive a free bag of food-what a deal!

As for the vet well everyone has their experiences and opinions. I for one believe in this webpage and the people sending in information-why? because I have not YET found so many people that care and give detailed advice as I've found here. Now with that said I did talk with my vet today since my KHAN is NOT regulated and I want to do home testing along with the vet partnering with me. I DO NOT WANT TO continue glucose curves in the vet clinic- KHAN just is soo stressed out and comes back looking just aweful I just can't do it with a good feeling that I"m actually helping him. I spoke to a vet tech today and asked questions that were blunt and really wanted to know why should I give insulin without testing the cat's glucose levels? we would NEVER consider doing that with a human. I like my vet clinic and respect the vet techs and the vet I deal with- I just know my KHAN and do not want him to go through all the stress. The vet tech wasn't in full agreement with me and that was ok with both of us. The dr did call me back and we had a nice discussion on WHY I want to do home monitoring, I did mention this website as well as the pet sitter the vet clinic had directed me to.

SO my patience and simple questions paid off. I now have the vet's approval to do home testing along with calling in my numbers so he can work with me on advice. I agreed to bring in Khan if he felt it was necessary. The Pet sitter is a avid cat lover and has another avid cat friend that has been doing home testing for years with her cat and it works. She said she would ask her friend to come and help me--even if I have to pay her the sitter fee I don't mind since it A WHOLE lot less than a vet bill.. plus KHAN doesn't have to leave his comfort zone.

I wish you luck. Keep posting what is going on because the people on this website really do care=at least that is how I'm feeling about it. :)
 
My vet is fine with home testing. In fact, she encourages it. She just says the reason Missy isn't regulated yet is because she is eating Fancy Feast and not the prescription diabetic food. She thinks switching to the dry high fiber food will get Missy off the insulin eventually. I tried explaining everything I've read online and she wouldn't go for it. I'm calling another vet this morning for a second opinion. It just kills me because I love this vet. We've been on the same page for so long and she was so great with my previous cat. I don't know what I'll do if I have to find another vet to go to.
 
I know it's hard to go against your vet, but she is wrong about the food. The prescription wet is better than dry, but it is still 13% carbs. And it isn't necessary to spend that kind of money for a food that is no better than lower carb commercial food.

I love my vet too. And we just agree to disagree about food. She would like me to feed Purina DM (wet). I just told her he wouldn't eat it and I planned to try some commercial foods that were low carb. Now we don't talk about diet at our vet visits. It's like everything else; you don't need your vet's permission to feed a particular food. You can still go to her for all your kitty's needs, but you can determine the diet.
 
well, to be honest, as far as Fancy Feast goes vs. the prescription food, if the right flavors of fancy feast are chosen, you would be feeding less carbs, which is what a diabetic needs. i simply don't understand your vet's thinking on dry vs. wet and the point of high fiber for a diabetic. does your cat have problems pooping or something?

i agree that the prescription wet would be 100000000 times better than the prescription dry but i will say that my now retired vet holds the patent on the prescription wet D/M and she herself does not insist that one must feed that, she actually prefers feeding raw and her ocicats that she breeds for instance get nothing but. the ingredients in the D/M aren't of the best quality she says (thanks to the manufacturer) and if finances are tight you can get as good a food or better at your local grocery story or walmart. so at least the wet D/M, if finances aren't an issue, would be better than what the vet is pushing.
 
No pooping problems. She just says fiber is needed for diabetes. Missy is currently eating Fancy Feast Elegant Medleys Shredded Lean Turkey Fare with Garden Greens (9% carbs) and Shredded White Meat Chicken Fare with Garden Greens (10% carbs). She was previously eating Science Diet Oral Care (26% carbs) so this seems to be an improvement.
 
Wow! Saw you just got a 66 nadir. . Then she bounced back up this morning. It would be nice to get rid of those swings. If you stay with the one unit, be diligent about testing

Maybe you can just quietly feed your Fancy Feast, hometest and get Missy off insulin. Your vet won't be able to argue with success!
 
That's what I'm trying to figure out now. How to get rid of the swings. It has been suggested that I lower the dose to 0.5 units. As I said, I tried that and freaked when her levels jumped back up to 401. Should I have continued with the 0.5 units for a few days just to see if her levels would even out?
 
Why don't you start a new thread and ask specifically for PZI dosing advice. Reference your spreadsheet and let them know you do have U100 syringes available. ( I am assuming you still do and are comfortable using them.) With them, you could do .25 increments.
 
yes, you should always hold the dose for at least a few days. each shot does not stand alone so if you reduce a dose, the next number is not that important. it takes a few shots at that dose to see what it is going to do

a 401 for a day or two is not going to kill anyone. a 20 just once can
 
Thanks Cindy. I appreciate the advice. I'll give it a shot again and I will try not to freak out with a higher number. That may be where this whole problem began. My vet had me call her twice a day with the glucose reading and she would tell me what dose to give. Poor Missy got a different dose every time, so I guess her body had a hard time keeping up with what was going on.
 
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