9/9 Leo AMPS418 +2 375 +5 165 +11 159 PMPS228 +5 287 +10 262

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Lisa & Leo

Lisa & Leo

Member Since 2012
Morning all!

Mama bean got a solid 7 hours of sleep last night! No testing! With the stinker floating in pinks and reds, not really a reason to. However, I'm learning that he's a late-cycle faller. His +11 was 443 and AMPS 418. His ss bears this out.

Yesterday's 9/8 Leo Adventure Condo (not to be confused with 9/7's adventure.)

AMPS 112
+1 80
+2 42 --- 2 tsp HC
+2.5 41 --- 1tsp HC, 1/2 tsp gravy, 2 drops Karo
+2.75 37 --- 2 tsp HC, 3 drops Karo
+3.2 50 --- 2 tsp HC, 1 drop Karo
+3.5 60 --- 1 tsp HC, 1 drop Karo
+4 63 --- 1 tsp HC, 1 drop Karo
+4.5 110 --- 1/2 tsp HC + 1/2 tsp MC <- NOPE! Not eaten
+5 147 --- 1 tsp MC
+5.75 164 --- 1 tsp LC
+6.25 192
+11 291
PMPS 344
+11 443

More to come later. Marje and Carl had an excellent discussion after I "retired" last night (read: collapsed) which offered a wealth of advice on using food more proactively to manage cycles to avoid the precipitous falls and subsequent Karo adventures. While I suppose Karo isn't horrible when we're bouncing and earning 4 REDUCTIONS IN 7 DAYS, but it's not a long-term solution. So I'll be posting questions today about their excellent advice.

But for now, I need another cup of ~O) ~O) ~O) . I also want to get back to reading other Condos - the last couple days I did drive-bys and I'm behind in my visits.

Today looks to be a beautiful day with lower humidity, so I'm hoping for a relaxing day reading in the backyard sun, throwing stuff on the grill, and my STILL PENDING pedicure treat!

Happy Sunday all my/our wonderful friends!
 
Re: 9/9 Leo AMPS 418 +2 375

That was so nice of Leo to let you get some much needed sleep last night. Hope you have a good day.
 
Re: 9/9 Leo AMPS 418 +2 375

Thanks Carla! I'm getting my reward pedicure...ahhhh the luxury! Ahhhh. Did I say that already? Ahhhhhh :smile:
 
Re: 9/9 Leo AMPS 418 +2 375

AMPS 418
+2 375
+5.25 165
+9 132

Falling falling falling. Is this delayed nadir due to the bounce recovery? He has a huge fluctuation here. I haven't had time to formulate food questions from yesterday's Condo from Marje and Carl, but but based on those suggestions, I'm wondering if we should consider giving him more an MC first meal than LC? He gets 3/4 can 3% at AMPS, then 1/2 can at +3 and 1/4 can at +6. He generally eats most of it. We *really* need this curve to smooth out!!!
 
Re: 9/9 Leo AMPS 418 +2 375 +5.25 165 +9 132

At this moment, you can't be sure if Leo is past nadir. There may be a lower number hiding between the 165 and the 132? He may be surfing or rising, and perhaps you are looking at a quick clearing of a bounce. Your +11 should answer those questions.
Carl
 
Re: 9/9 Leo AMPS 418 +2 375 +5.25 165 +9 132

I'm wondering if we should consider giving him more an MC first meal than LC? He gets 3/4 can 3% at AMPS, then 1/2 can at +3 and 1/4 can at +6.
Click to expand...

Are you referring to the upcoming cycle, or "in general"?
Carl
 
Re: 9/9 Leo AMPS 418 +2 375 +5.25 165 +9 132

Carl & Bob said:
I'm wondering if we should consider giving him more an MC first meal than LC? He gets 3/4 can 3% at AMPS, then 1/2 can at +3 and 1/4 can at +6.
Click to expand...

Are you referring to the upcoming cycle, or "in general"?
Carl
Click to expand...

In general. He sometimes drops like a rock around +2 to +5 and his nadir seems to be around +5ish. Especially when he's in the process of earning a reduction or close to it. And then at the end of his cycle, he tends to peak around +11 and have a lower value PS, even when not earning a reduction. I'm wondering if a mix of MC/LC as the first meal would mellow out the dip. I'm not sure what's going on with the dip at PS though. That means I'm often shooting a falling number, which makes me nervous if I'm not around to get a +1 or +2.

For THIS cycle, I think it's just coming down off the bounce from yesterday, but it's a quick fall. I'll be doing the +11 and posting in about 2 hours.

Thanks for checking in Carl.
 
Re: 9/9 Leo AMPS 418 +2 375 +5.25 165 +9 132

OK, let me take a stab at "manipulating" the early part of the cycle.
He gets 3/4 can 3% at AMPS, then 1/2 can at +3 and 1/4 can at +6.
Click to expand...

That is your current feeding schedule, all LC, right?

I think it depends on what you are trying for. Do you want to lessen the dip and not have him dive between +2 and +5? Or do you want to delay the onset?

I think if you feed higher carbs, 3/4 can at AMPS, then what you will see is an artificially higher number at +1 or +2, and then the same sort of dive. The difference might be that the bottom of the dive is not as low a number, because the "diving platform" would be higher. edit to add - and I think the end result is that you would end up having to increase the insulin in order to get a drop into dose reduction territory, because you'd be fighting against higher numbers early in the cycle.

If you are trying to delay the onset and smooth the curve, then I think what might work better is to split the AMPS meal into smaller portions spread out over AMPS, +1 and +2. I think that gives you less "rise" but a longer plateau, as the LC food is keeping the numbers elevated, but not as high, and for longer. edit to add - I think with this strategy, you'd end up not raising, or even lowering the dose, because it wouldn't take as much juice to reach dose reduction territory if the high from the food boost wasn't as high and was just taking place later in the cycle.

I think the theory is to use LC food in a way that keeps the food just ahead of the insulin, so that when the insulin starts pushing the numbers down, the LC food is providing a cushion of sorts.

I think the consensus is that HC gravy, or karo, will push the numbers up, but not last long, and you've witnessed that yourself. Well, I think it goes back to what I asked in either yesterday or the day before's condo, about how long carb boosts last based on what type of food you're talking about.

Does the boost from MC food last as long as the boost from low carb food? I realize it will give you a bigger boost, but does if fade more quickly than LC carbs would? I think what you are after is the duration of the elevation, rather than the degree of elevation? (if the goal is to flatten the cycle).

I didn't really use food to try to manipulate the numbers with Bob. He ate a can of FF at AMPS and PMPS, and 1/4 to 1/3 can of Friskees pates around +4 to +6 depending on my schedule in between each shot. So this is all "theory" to me that I'm trying to wrap my head around...

Carl
 
Re: 9/9 Leo AMPS 418 +2 375 +5.25 165 +9 132

Carl,

Yes, that is his dosing/feeding schedule, but I only have about 5 days of data with that schedule. If he dips around +2ish and LC lasts longer, then wouldn't dividing the first meal into smaller parts actually allow the dip to go down more quickly because most of the food hadn't hit his system yet? What about a smaller LC at shoot time, then a small MC at +1ish...

Yes, I am trying to play the same mind games as well. I agree that MCs overall would likely just raise the whole curve and require a higher dose, and I don't want to do that. I want to flatten the curve so that he's on a nice dose without the worry of a crash. Give him a squirt of something with just enough carbs, and just the right amount of time to flatten the nadir. If it were so easy, right? I have been testing a lot lately, but I'm usually out of town half the week and DH isn't enthused about getting up in the night to test, or coming home from work during the day to get a nadir.

Let me ponder more on this. Perhaps Jane will have some insight, although without a lot of data on this feeding schedule, it's not very clear what might happen with him. I still have to do Marje's experiment with MC/LC on a falling (higher) green.

On another front, a potential tester/sitter visited tonight (and why I'm late getting the +11 up (159). She's going to school for some sort of animal degree - not veterinary, like something related to animals. She was involved in some research and has done ear sticks, and was able to answer some "what if" diabetes questions. But Leo got freaky with SOMEONE ELSE in his room, and as she was about to test him, all the fire alarms in the house went off. Leo went through the roof, into a corner, up a wall, and into the back of a shelf. Sigh. So, his PMPS is 228. Now, his BG was heading up from his +11, but that could surely be stress related!

Lisa
 
Re: 9/9 Leo AMPS 418 +2 375 +5.25 165 +9 132 +11 159 PMPS 22

Lisa

The theory is to frontload the cycle. You are feeding 3%...maybe you want to try 5%. So he gets 1.5 cans of food a cycle. First, I wouldn't feed him at +6. Any time you are feeding near or after nadir, you are putting the brakes on the insulin.

You could try 1/2 can at PS and +1 and then 1/4 can at +2 and +3. Since he likes to drop at +2, if you give him more food earlier, and then continue feeding through onset time, it might bring those numbers up a bit and slow down the onset of the insulin. Unfortunately, ECID and for every single cat, you just have to see what works. Add to that the fact that the results will not be instantaneous. It also depends on the cat. When Sienne put Gabby on a front loaded feeding schedule, it took several months for her to see the effect. When I changed Gracie, it took a couple months but she was one that liked to dive at +2 when she was on lantus. Feeding her more at PS and +1 helped her alot.

So again...the point is to feed his total normal amount and normal %carbs on a schedule that allows flattening the curve. The "normal" amount should be a LC food but you'll have to see what %carb works best for him. I moved Gracie from 1-3% to 4% for normal curve management. Of course, her schedule is different now on lev.
 
Re: 9/9 Leo AMPS 418 +2 375 +5.25 165 +9 132 +11 159 PMPS 22

Marjorie and Gracie said:
Lisa

The theory is to frontload the cycle. You are feeding 3%...maybe you want to try 5%. So he gets 1.5 cans of food a cycle. First, I wouldn't feed him at +6. Any time you are feeding near or after nadir, you are putting the brakes on the insulin.

You could try 1/2 can at PS and +1 and then 1/4 can at +2 and +3. Since he likes to drop at +2, if you give him more food earlier, and then continue feeding through onset time, it might bring those numbers up a bit and slow down the onset of the insulin.
Click to expand...

Okay, that's along the lines of what I was thinking, but just more volume in front rather than just a boost in carbs. I just woke up for his +5 reading, and his +3 meal is largely untouched. It's about to be rotated away. So I'm not sure he would comply. But ... he is woofing nearly all of the 3/4 can at PS, so your idea would partially work. Implementing this ... with the feeder, if he doesn't finish one meal, it moves the circular tray to the new meal, and he forfeits whatever he didn't eat of the previous meal(s). I could get the feeder where the two doors pop open but they never close. With your idea, I think I'd want all three to stay open and available until some much later time ... I currently have the last meal rotate away at +9. Ack, but I'd want all the food removed by +9 but the door-opening feeders don't close. Oh boy, having to use BOTH types of feeders every cycle?

Thanks for the ideas ... they make sense. Just not sure he would comply. But he may learn if he starts "missing" food...so we'd still play the low nadir game until he gets it together.

Oh, these darned cats!!!

Thanks
Lisa
 
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