9/24 Apollo AMPS 494 +6/289, PMPS 329 +3.5/276

Status
Not open for further replies.
John & Apollo

John & Apollo

Member Since 2011
Apollo's Condo

Well numbers came down a bit this morning. He didn't have any dry kibble for 24 hours, so that is probably the reason for the drop. That's good news, but I know he is still high. I fed him Wellness Chicken and Herring and he ate about 75% of a 3oz can for his AM feeding.
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 497

That sounds like a good start. It can take up to 3 days for the kibble to clear out of a cat's system. You can certainly leave more food out for Apollo to graze on if he needs more calories for this half of the day.

(Did you see the last few posts in your condo from yesterday?)

When you have a chance, could you complete a Profile on Apollo?
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 497

Jill & Alex said:
no, his appetite is not normal under the circumstances. with numbers that high you would think he'd be wanting to eat you out of house and home. when kitties are high, they're usually ravenous. high numbers and lack of appetite is what has me on high alert for the possibility of him developing ketones. i know it must sound like i'm harping about checking for ketones, but it's in both your best interests to do whatever it takes to routinely check for ketones. routinely testing for ketones will give us a head's up to a potential problem and we can do what we can to keep things from getting worse. not testing for ketones can result in having to deal with the possibility of DKA. trust me, you don't want to go there. it's a serious and sometimes fatal condition... not to mention costly.
Click to expand...

I completely understand your concern for ketones, I'm just kind of freaking out over how to get a sample. I don't have any test strips yet. I had hoped the vet could have taped his bladder yesterday, but he didn't have enough urine in him. I only have 1 litter box in the house that all 3 cats share, so I will need to get a second one and try to wait and catch him to grab a sample. Or buy the breeze box and sequester him to see if I can get a sample that way.

Question: Would I only have to do this periodically? If so, how often? So I could pull out the secondary box when I needed a sample, but other times just let him used the one he shares with my other cats? Also the vet did check him for any physical signs of ketones (breath smell, etc) and he was ok, but I know the urine test is the true test to know for sure.

Jill & Alex said:
has apollo been tested for pancreatitis?
Click to expand...
I think so from our old vet, but I am not completely sure. I will ask to get the test done next time I bring Apollo in. What would his symptoms be?

His main symptoms now are very lethargic, eating but not a ton, and some neuropathy.

I am trying to stay confident, but it's eating at me inside. I can't sleep much, my mind keeps racing. I know I am doing all I can for him, but I can't stop worrying.
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 497

Sienne and Gabby said:
That sounds like a good start. It can take up to 3 days for the kibble to clear out of a cat's system. You can certainly leave more food out for Apollo to graze on if he needs more calories for this half of the day.
Click to expand...

You mean more wet food, correct? I have done that. Apollo has always grazed his entire life. I think that may be the reason for not eating the whole amount in 1 sitting. He is just not used to eating like that, especially with new wet food. I have to keep an eye on one of my other cats though as he loves this new wet food and wants to eat as much as he can get at. :smile:
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 497

FWIW, I spread Gabby's food out from pre-shot to +3 -- so over the first 4 hours of the cycle. Many people here provide "mini-meals." You don't need to feel compelled to have Apollo clean his bowl at shot time.

I'm actually surprised your vet didn't use a blood test to check for ketones. I would not want to suggest you wait until you can smell acetone on Apollo's breath to diagnose ketones. If you are smelling acetone, your cat is throwing ketones for sure and it could be a critical situation. We stress getting a urinary ketone test because it's inexpensive. I think Rosalie (?) (Morgaine's bean) may have mentioned the Precision Xtra meter which has strips for testing for blood ketones. This is fine but the strips are expensive. Your vet should have been able to run a blood ketone test and not have to be concerned whether Apollo had a full bladder. (The advantage of blood ketones is it is a real time test for ketones. Urinary ketones don't give a to the minute test -- you have to rely on the hours it takes for the urine to collect.) I know it sounds like we're harping on this issue. Lethargy is a key symptom so it has our radar pinging.

Unless you have a huge litter box (like the size of a bathtub), the rule of thumb is 1.5 boxes per cat in a multiple cat home. I cheat and have 2 for my 2 cats. You can get the second box and use fish gravel to help get a sample for ketone testing.
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 497

No he didn't even suggest it. I was unaware it could be checked that way (at the time I was there), or I would have pushed for it. :YMSIGH:

Actually it is pretty big box as one of our cats is a big guy at 18lbs. I clean it constantly, so it's never been an issue in the past. Would it ok to just have 1 main one (that I clean constantly) and have the second temporary one to catch Apollo's urine when needed?
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 497

for a temporary box i slide a box lid (from a carton of copy paper, my husband brings home tons of boxes) into a plastic garbage bag. you can use lentils or aquarium gravel to put in the box - they won't absorb the urine. shut him in a room with the temporary box (which you could then rinse the gravel/lentil off, dry it and keep for future check) and after he's gone in that box, check it for ketones.
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 497

julie1220 said:
for a temporary box i slide a box lid (from a carton of copy paper, my husband brings home tons of boxes) into a plastic garbage bag. you can use lentils or aquarium gravel to put in the box - they won't absorb the urine. shut him in a room with the temporary box (which you could then rinse the gravel/lentil off, dry it and keep for future check) and after he's gone in that box, check it for ketones.
Click to expand...

Thanks so much for that home made suggestion! I already have the box lids and garbage bags, now just need to pick up some ketone testing strips and aquarium gravel.

Btw Apollo eating more food again. He's just grazing, eating a bit as he wishes. I'm glad to see that.
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 497

what an awesome suggestion from julie!
happy to hear apollo's eating again. good luck getting a ketone test done!
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 497

Hi John, nice to see Apollo's number down a bit today. We feed multiple small meals in the first half of the cycle when the insulin is working then just freeze dried chicken in the second half if he needs a little something. We felt like we constantly chased Zener around with a bowl of food. We have now settled on meals at the shot (after testing), +1, +2, +3, and +6. That seems to be working pretty well and Zener is eating a consistent amount of food although we worry it's not enough.

I know what you mean about feeling overwhelmed and not being able to just do something to make Apollo all well. It has been very stressful for me (I'm not a medical person) just doing the basic testing and shots. It really does get better and I try to fully appreciate the good times and how much Zener means to me and how he enriches my life. You're doing a great job. It's really taking small steps at a time. Then you occasionally look back and see how much progress you've made. I am also very thankful that we found this message board. This is a generous, caring community of people who are as crazy about their cats as we are.

Have a great weekend!
Liz
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 497

Improved number this morning! Just caught up with yesterdays condo. The vet sounds like a keeper to me.

Glad to hear Apolllo is eating - I'm goinig to add my voice to the "Test for Ketones" choir. . .

I use a programable automatic timed feeder to feed my cat mini meals in between his main meals at 12/12. BK is 11lbs and change on 2 3oz. cans of FF per day. He gets 1/2 can on the 12s and 1/4 can at each +4 and +8. The timed feeder is a lifesaver for us. It's the Petsafe 5 compartment feeder.

Things are moving in the right direction ! Good job!
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 497

Better numbers this morning! You are definitely on your way. Hope you are able to get a +6 and glad Jill gave you a plan for a stepped up dose.

Have a great weekend!
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 494

Ok all. Just got back from the store. I have ketone test strips and aquarium gravel. I will try to get a ketone test done in a bit. Just did the +6 test and Apollo was at 289. That's looking better. :smile:
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 494

Woohoo!! :thumbup Looks like his shed just had to get filled. Now you are in business. Great job John! Things are definitely looking up. Now you can breathe (and maybe sleep) a little easier.
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 494

Excellent news with the 289!!! GREAT! I can breath now... :lol: :lol: :lol: and Apollo isn't even my kitty! :mrgreen: I was so worried...great to see some lower BG action... GOOD job John for being such a great feline dad! ;-) Good luck with the urine sample!

PS. You can click 'edit' and add +6/289 to your condos title.
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 494

WOW 289!!! So glad to see him coming down from the super hi!

John, hang in there. You are doing great and Apollo will feel better soon. Wish i could have gotten my Precision X-Tra meter to you but it sounds like you have what you need to test him now.

We are all waiting for your updates and we care about you and Apollo. Lethargy is certainly a concern but remember that if the body is loaded with glucose, the brain gets effected and lethargy can be a sign of high glucose. I know it well. Its a constant sugar crash. Hopefully his numbers will continue to drop and he will perk up soon.
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 494 +6/289

Ok the aquarium gravel litter box has been set. I have him sequestered in the bedroom with me. Now it's a waiting game. Will update again as soon as he decides to go (hopefully). He is sleeping now so it could take a while.

Thanks again everyone for the good words of encouragement. :smile:
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 494 +6/289

cool! with any luck apollo will cooperate soon!

that 289 @ +6 is encouraging!!!
what time is shot time and what time zone are you in? i'd like to try to connect with you before shot time to find out if you were able to get a ketone test and what the results were BEFORE you give the next shot. i'm in the central time zone. if we can pull this off, i'd like you to get a bg test for PMPS about 15 minutes early tonight so we have time to suggest a possible dose increase.
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 494 +6/289

Jill & Alex said:
cool! with any luck apollo will cooperate soon!

that 289 @ +6 is encouraging!!!
what time is shot time and what time zone are you in? i'd like to try to connect with you before shot time to find out if you were able to get a ketone test and what the results were BEFORE you give the next shot. i'm in the central time zone. if we can pull this off, i'd like you to get a bg test for PMPS about 15 minutes early tonight so we have time to suggest a possible dose increase.
Click to expand...

I am in the eastern time zone. I have been giving the PM shot at 8pm. I don't know if he will pee before then though. Do you think we should increase yet? Question for you, do you think that by eliminating all the dry food that alone might continue to drive down his numbers at just the 2 unit twice a day dose? Just asking as I am not sure if that is how Lantus works or if the numbers are already at their peak low since he has been on this dosage for several days now?
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 494 +6/289

John & Apollo said:
I am in the eastern time zone. I have been giving the PM shot at 8pm. I don't know if he will pee before then though. Do you think we should increase yet? Question for you, do you think that by eliminating all the dry food that alone might continue to drive down his numbers at just the 2 unit twice a day dose? Just asking as I am not sure if that is how Lantus works or if the numbers are already at their peak low since he has been on this dosage for several days now?
Click to expand...

ok, so 7pm my time.

yes, i do think eliminating dry food from his diet can drive numbers down. i/we would only suggest a dose increase tonight "if" you get a ketone test and it's positive for ketones. otherwise, i think you're good to go with 2u tonight.

in any case, tonight you'll want to get a before bed spot check or get one sometime during the night.
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 494 +6/289

One more question, so I can be prepared. If he does test positive for ketones what do I do? My vet is closed until Monday morning. There is a 24 hour emergency vet about 30 minutes away if need be.
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 494 +6/289

John & Apollo said:
One more question, so I can be prepared. If he does test positive for ketones what do I do? My vet is closed until Monday morning. There is a 24 hour emergency vet about 30 minutes away if need be.
Click to expand...

it all depends on the amount of ketones he's throwing. if it's above "trace" on the ketone stix, you'll want to call the ER for advice. generally speaking they'll have you bring him in. if he's throwing trace ketones the dose will need to be increased, you'll have to get as much water and food into him as you can, and you'll want to continue monitoring for ketones frequently.

throwing trace ketones is a red flag. if the next ketone test is higher you know you're headed for trouble. increasing the insulin dose and increasing food and water intake may be all that's needed to flush trace ketones from his system. that's why i'm hoping he'll pee between now and shot time.
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 494 +6/289

Jill & Alex said:
in any case, tonight you'll want to get a before bed spot check or get one sometime during the night.
Click to expand...

Just wondering why I would need to do that if we don't change his dose?
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 494 +6/289

John & Apollo said:
Just wondering why I would need to do that if we don't change his dose?
Click to expand...
because he's due for a dose increase tomorrow morning, but we don't have a lot of data to work with and have a switch to an all wet diet to consider. if he drops say into the mid-100s tonight (remember he could because of the cumulative action of lantus)... it'll influence whether you should increase in the AM or not.
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 494 +6/289

Jill & Alex said:
John & Apollo said:
Just wondering why I would need to do that if we don't change his dose?
Click to expand...
because he's due for a dose increase tomorrow morning, but we don't have a lot of data to work with and have a switch to an all wet diet to consider. if he drops say into the mid-100s tonight (remember he could because of the cumulative action of lantus)... it'll influence whether you should increase in the AM or not.
Click to expand...

I see. That makes sense. Is there a preferred time I should check it tonight? I can do a mini or full curve tomorrow during the day if it would be more helpful to know how we should proceed?
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 494 +6/289

John & Apollo said:
I see. That makes sense. Is there a preferred time I should check it tonight? I can do a mini or full curve tomorrow during the day if it would be more helpful to know how we should proceed?
Click to expand...
any random mid-cycle spot checks you can get tonight would be helpful. i'm not a big believer in curves myself. although, curves are helpful as far as the caregiver learning when onset & nadir occur as well as giving you an idea of how much duration you're getting from the dose. you will need to know these things soon.

to be honest, i've been more concerned with getting enough insulin into apollo given that he was up to 10 units of humulin N. mid-cycle spot checks will give us a better idea if apollo is grossly under dose on lantus or was grossly over dose on N.
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 494 +6/289

Jill & Alex said:
John & Apollo said:
I see. That makes sense. Is there a preferred time I should check it tonight? I can do a mini or full curve tomorrow during the day if it would be more helpful to know how we should proceed?
Click to expand...
any random mid-cycle spot checks you can get tonight would be helpful. i'm not a big believer in curves myself. although, curves are helpful as far as the caregiver learning when onset & nadir occur as well as giving you an idea of how much duration you're getting from the dose. you will need to know these things soon.

to be honest, i've been more concerned with getting enough insulin into apollo given that he was up to 10 units of humulin N. mid-cycle spot checks will give us a better idea if apollo is grossly under dose on lantus or was grossly over dose on N.
Click to expand...

Well said. Just so you know Apollo never had his blood glucose checked at home when he was diagnosed and being treated with Humulin N. My old vet when I lived in Florida just encouraged me to start slow on Humulin N and then do fructosamine tests every few months to see where he was at. He didn't even do blood glucose tests at the clinic because he felt they wouldn't be accurate due to Apollo stressing. Now I know how innaccurate and dangerous that approach really was thanks to everyone here.
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 494 +6/289

i figured as much since you've just started testing at home. we'll get it figured out pretty quick here.
kudos to you for taking the bull by the horns to help him out.
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 494 +6/289

No luck using the box yet. He just looks at it and walks off. Hope he gives it a try soon.
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 494 +6/289

I'm so happy to see Apollo's numbers coming down. :thumbup You are doing a great job! Amazing what the right insulin and the right food can accomplish! :-D :-D :-D

Come on Apollo, PEE!!! It may be the whole different situation is throwing him off. Is he drinking much water now? Keeping him hydrated is important and cats usually get most of their moisture from their food. Many of us add water to the moist food the get them to take more in. Cats seem to like to lap the liquid up first and then start in on the solids. Ever watch nature shows of lions w/ their prey?
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 494 +6/289

I'm also glad to see Apollo's numbers coming down - yay!

Sending "Pee in the box soon, Apollo" vibes your way!
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 494 +6/289

Yeah I think the different box and being sequestered isn't making him feel comfortable enough to go. I don't know what else to do but give it more time. He may also just be getting hungry and just won't go pee until after he eats.

He has cut down on water since we started on the Lantus. I would say he is drinking closer to normal now. He used to come running anytime you added water to the bowl.

I have been adding water to his wet food to get him more water intake and also to keep it moist longer.
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 494 +6/289

What did you do Saturday night? I stalked me cat waiting for him to pee. :lol: :lol: :lol: Been there. Done that. The things we do for our animals. Good luck on your pee quest John!!
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 494 +6/289, PMPS 329

LOVE THAT PMPS NUMBER!
don't forget about getting either a before bed or mid-cycle spot check tonight, ok?
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 494 +6/289, PMPS 329

329 is awesome! dancing_cat flip_cat dancing_cat Way to go John & Apollo! Hopefully One of the more experienced members will be on soon with Dosing advice but that is a HUGE improvement!
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 494 +6/289, PMPS 329

329! Wunderbar! Sending sounds of gurgling water to Apollo... Does that work for cats? When Zener was not too keen to eat, I would tell him that he needed to eat because that's how he got energy to prowl around the yard, which he dearly loves to do. Then he would start to eat. I'm sure he knew what I said to him. :smile:
Liz
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 494 +6/289, PMPS 329

Jill & Alex said:
LOVE THAT PMPS NUMBER!
don't forget about getting either a before bed or mid-cycle spot check tonight, ok?
Click to expand...

I will. Question: I should keep him on 2 units twice a day still, right? Just dont want him to get too much insulin and go down that path. I know I am just being paranoid, but wanted to be sure I didn't give him too much now that he is starting to come down.
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 494 +6/289

Melissa & Tarragon said:
What did you do Saturday night? I stalked me cat waiting for him to pee. :lol: :lol: :lol: Been there. Done that. The things we do for our animals. Good luck on your pee quest John!!
Click to expand...

Exactly. How about getting down on all 4's and pretending to walk into the litter box and cover up. Yes I tried that tonight. :lol:
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 494 +6/289, PMPS 329

I haven't stopped by to say hi and welcome yet. So HI. and WELCOME.

When Jesse was first diagnosed his numbers were also off the charts.
It' so nice to see that insulin is starting to work for Apollo!
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 494 +6/289, PMPS 329

John & Apollo said:
I will. Question: I should keep him on 2 units twice a day still, right? Just dont want him to get too much insulin and go down that path. I know I am just being paranoid, but wanted to be sure I didn't give him too much now that he is starting to come down.
Click to expand...

i can't blame you!
what do you think about this plan:

--- get a before bed/mid-cycle spot check tonight
--- shoot 2u tomorrow morning assuming he doesn't go too low tonight (i HIGHLY doubt that would happen) and his PS number is 200 or more tomorrow morning (if it's lower, post for advice before shooting)
--- get a couple of mid-cycle spot checks during tomorrow's AM cycle
--- evaluate the dose and increase tomorrow night if necessary
--- continue trying to get a ketone test, but give him some breaks, too. we don't want to stress him out.
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 494 +6/289, PMPS 329

Jill & Alex said:
--- shoot 2u tomorrow morning assuming he doesn't go too low tonight (i HIGHLY doubt that would happen) and his PS number is 200 or more tomorrow morning (if it's lower, post for advice before shooting)
Click to expand...

So how low is too low for tonight? Just so I have a number to look out for.
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 494 +6/289, PMPS 329

John & Apollo said:
So how low is too low for tonight? Just so I have a number to look out for.
Click to expand...

for now (this will change), if you get a number under 100, you'll want to continue testing and post his numbers. you could also feed him to bump his numbers up. you might want to take a look at the last section in the STICKY: LANTUS & LEVEMIR - SHOOTING & HANDLING LOW NUMBERS.

i really don't think this will be an issue tonight.
if you have questions in the morning, i'll pop in here before your shot time.

if you're computer is fired up when you get that spot check tonight, please enter it on your spreadsheet or post it here.
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 494 +6/289, PMPS 329

I GOT PEE!!!!!!! Well I figured he wasn't going to try the nice box I made for him and decided to take another approach. I took the hood off the main box, and pulled it out of the closet just a bit so I could get to it from all angles. I let him out of the bedroom and within a few minutes he headed over to the box. I made a tin foil pee container based on someone's earlier suggestion (forgive me I can't remember who at the moment). He got in and when he turned around I went in and got a nice sample. Best of all NO KETONES!!! It did not change and stayed in the negative range.

He was in the high range for glucose though, but that was to be expected, right? It was olive green/dark brown for glucose (the last two blocks on the strip) says between 500-1000. It was more dark brown then green.
 
Re: 9/24 Apollo AMPS 494 +6/289, PMPS 329

That is so exciting!!! And best of all negative!!! What a relief. The glucose is expected. Congratulations! We were about to have to do a rain dance for the poor guy. Your perseverance paid off and you can rest easy tonight. Only on LAntus Land can you get excited about pee. :lol: Have a great night guys and GET SOME REST!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top