9/23 Apollo PMPS 600+

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John & Apollo

John & Apollo

Member Since 2011
Apollo Condo

Hey everyone. Well this morning Apollo tested "Hi" on the meter which I know means it's over 600. I have removed all dry food and replaced with wet for this morning's feeding. Apollo actually took to it pretty well. He usually eats during the night, so I know he probably wasn't starving first thing in the morning. I gave him 2 units to be consistent with the starting dose.

I am planning on doing a curve this weekend when my wife will be home to help. I have to admit I am pretty scared at him having such a high number. Hopefully getting rid of the dry food will help bring it down a bit. I first thought maybe 2 units is still too low for Apollo, but after reading what Jill said in yesterdays thread it has me a bit scared of raising him too soon before we know how he will be reacting to the Lantus and new food.

I do have 2 questions.

1.) I read people talk about Ketones. Since I have 2 other cats it's next to impossible to get a urine sample from him. How would I even attempt to do that? Is it necessary?

2.) I was first instructed to inject Apollo in the scruff which he happily takes. I have always injected there, moving around a bit so as to not hit the same exact spot over and over. That is ok, right?

Thanks,
John
 
Re: 9/23 Apollo AMPS 600+

Hi John,
So sorry to see that high number, but you are right to hold the dose as Jill suggests until you can get a better handle on things. I have always heard that the insulin isn't absorbed as well if you shoot in the scruff, but I also know that a lot of people do shoot in the scruff. I shoot just behind the shoulder, sort of on the side.

As regards ketone testing. It can be a challenge. You can try following him when he goes to the litterbox and sticking a long-handled soup ladle under him while he pees. This will work. Then follow the instructions on the Ketastix label very precisely.

Good luck! (And try not to worry; the dosing "gurus" here will make sure that Apollo will be safe)

Ella & Rusty
 
Re: 9/23 Apollo AMPS 600+

Good morning! Hate to see HI on the meter. That is how we started out as well. Lantus takes a while to fill up the "shed" so it will take 4-6 cycles (shots) to get that full before you will start to see lower numbers. 600 is a little concerning though so I hope Jill, Sienne, or Libby will stop by.

Ketones are very important! If they build up, they can lead to very serious energy problems in the body, resulting in diabetic ketoacidosis, a true medical emergency. My kitty, Tarragon, was in the hospital for 3 days a few weeks ago with DKA. I know that there are some "tricks" that people here use to get a sample. I just follow him to the lb and dip it in the pool once he is done.

I inject in the scruff. I move it around, but am not really that diligent on making sure to do it in a different spot each time. Tarragon has never flinched so it must not have a bad effect anyway.

Good luck with the curve! It will tell you a lot and point you in the right direction.
 
Re: 9/23 Apollo AMPS 600+

Melissa & Tarragon said:
Ketones are very important! If they build up, they can lead to very serious energy problems in the body, resulting in diabetic ketoacidosis, a true medical emergency. My kitty, Tarragon, was in the hospital for 3 days a few weeks ago with DKA. I know that there are some "tricks" that people here use to get a sample. I just follow him to the lb and dip it in the pool once he is done.
Click to expand...

But how do you do that when it's just a giant clump? Our box has a hood on it and when Apollo goes in there is no way to get behind him as he faces the opening when he goes. Would he have certain symptoms to look out for with Ketones or will you only know through a test?

I'm really starting to become overwhelmed as just when I think I am on the right track another thing becomes an issue and needs addressed. Like I can't get my arms wrapped around everything only bits and pieces.
 
Re: 9/23 Apollo AMPS 600+

Hi guys .. sorry to see apollo so high this morning .. I think holding the dose is a good idea .. and I think removing the dry food is awesome! We always shot mocha in her side .. kinda by her rib cage area .. we tried shooting her in the scruff once .. and she let us know right then and there she would not be tolerating that! Of course, mocha fought us every single day at shot times .. it was a battle ... that we won .. :lol: Hope you guys have a great weekend!
 
Re: 9/23 Apollo AMPS 600+

PeterDevonMocha said:
Hi guys .. sorry to see apollo so high this morning .. I think holding the dose is a good idea .. and I think removing the dry food is awesome! We always shot mocha in her side .. kinda by her rib cage area .. we tried shooting her in the scruff once .. and she let us know right then and there she would not be tolerating that! Of course, mocha fought us every single day at shot times .. it was a battle ... that we won .. :lol: Hope you guys have a great weekend!
Click to expand...

When the vet first instructed me he said I can inject him in the scruff, and the backside hip area. Apollo hates that backside shot (probably because he is pretty frail back there now). I only did it once and moved back to the scruff, since he doesn't mind at all. Doesn't even flinch. I just wanted to be sure I was doing that part of the process correctly.
 
Re: 9/23 Apollo AMPS 600+

John & Apollo said:
..............
I'm really starting to become overwhelmed as just when I think I am on the right track another thing becomes an issue and needs addressed. Like I can't get my arms wrapped around everything only bits and pieces.
Click to expand...

John - DON'T WORRY! You WILL get your arms around all of it and have all the 'strings' in place soon. You're doing WONDERFUL! Just keep doing it....

Hugs and scratches
 
Re: 9/23 Apollo AMPS 600+

But how do you do that when it's just a giant clump? Our box has a hood on it and when Apollo goes in there is no way to get behind him as he faces the opening when he goes. Would he have certain symptoms to look out for with Ketones or will you only know through a test?
Click to expand...

We don't have a hood on ours and Tarragon faces the wall so I have it very easy. I have heard a lot of different methods people use. At the hospital, they put newspaper in the litter box when they wanted a sample and when he peed on it, they wrung it out. Ewwww. It would be very difficult with a hooded lb, so I am hoping someone with experience with that will come along and give you pointers. The thing with ketones is that if you can catch them when they are only a trace then you can stop it before it becomes DKA. There are other symptoms of DKA, but by testing for ketones you are trying to catch it before it progresses to that point.

I'm really starting to become overwhelmed as just when I think I am on the right track another thing becomes an issue and needs addressed. Like I can't get my arms wrapped around everything only bits and pieces.
Click to expand...

We all know what you mean and have been there. Really. It is so confusing at first and you are told so many different things that it is hard to keep it all straight. Hang in there. We are all here for you and will help any way we can.
 
Re: 9/23 Apollo AMPS 600+

Hello John and Apollo,

It's a lot to wrap your mind around, no doubt about it. It will become second nature soon - it will get better.

I can't see your ss due to a firewall here at tbp, but I believe you have 3 consecutive cycles of 2u under your belt at this point. Keep at it.

Regarding ketone testing, it's 'very important for diabetic kitties, especially if numbers are high. Can you take the hood off the box for now?
I was able to get the test strip into BKs urine stream most times, sinice he doesn't always put his butt all the way down. Sometimes if he jumped out of the lb real quick and I moved real quick some urine was still in a pool (had not absorbed into the litter yet) and it was enough for a quick dip for a test.
Other things to watch out for are lack of appetite and lethargy. However, you want to catch ketones *before* you notice any other symptoms.
It's a good idea to mix a bit of water with his food as well.

Regarding where to shoot, I always shot in the area kind of between the shohulder blades (I had to shoot him while he had his head in the food bowl) and that worked for us. I did try and move the shots arouond in that area. BK did develop a kind of thickening there, due to him having a High Dose condition for a period of time he got 6 shots a day,which probably had a lot to do with the thickening.
 
Re: 9/23 Apollo AMPS 600+

Hi John,

Hope Apollo's (love that name!) numbers come down for you.

I'm very interested to see the responses to your ketone testing question - as I have 3 that all use all the LBs and they're all in closets at my place, so equally impossible to get behind my boy to try and "catch" anything. Plus he gets Highly offended if you disturb his bathroom activities :lol:

I usually shoot by his belly on the sides - alternating sides - grabbing a bit of that flappy skin. Sometimes I swear he sucks in so I can't get a good pinch!

I'm still learning all this too, so you've got company in your boat :smile:
 
Re: 9/23 Apollo AMPS 600+

Hi Michelle,

Small world. I see you are in Boynton Beach. My wife and I just moved from Delray Beach to Morgantown, WV for her job a few months ago. My dad still lives in Boynton Beach. Enjoying the retired life. :smile:
 
Re: 9/23 Apollo AMPS 600+

You might want to do the take the hood off the LB for a while and let him get used to going in a non hooded box and then I myself just use a very small bowl when I see Do Lou get ready to pee and then catch part of it or like others said put a strip under your boy I myself can never seem to do that so thats why I use a small bowl for Do Lou when I test his urine
 
Re: 9/23 Apollo AMPS 600+

Where and how you're shooting is just fine. I've used the same area with Gabby for quite a while. I found when I tried a flank shot, the chances of my giving a fur shot increased dramatically and Gabby wasn't happy with where she was getting poked.

FWIW, most vets and feline behaviorists don't recommend a covered litter box. If you can uncover the box and maybe keep Apollo and the box sequestered so your other cats don't use the box until you get a ketone test, that would be the only solution I can think of.
 
Re: 9/23 Apollo AMPS 600+

Hi, John & Apollo!

welcome to lantus land!

I use the Tidy cat Breeze Litter box for binks...it uses pellets rather than litter...so makes it very easy to test for ketones.
the urine passes through onto a tray down below.
They are currently on sale at our local PetSmart for $24...and there is a $10 coupon on their website...so puts them at $14 + tax.

here's a link to the coupon

https://www.breezeforcats.com/systemCouponForm.html

and a pic of the system in case it's something you want to consider.
works very well for us...

celi & binks

070230127334B.jpg
 
Re: 9/23 Apollo AMPS 600+

Wow!

Funny how that works, huh? Wish I was enjoying the retired life - but the way the market's been, my 401k won't cover Jetson's living expenses!

Wishing you the best of luck in your new hometown :-D
Too bad you're all the way in WV - I'm in desperate need of a sitter for Jetson and his 2 sisters in October - someone who can do the stuff we do for our sugar kitties - which is proving nearly impossible.

Sorry - way OT - this is Apollo's condo... Hope you have a good day and give your bean an actual number on that meter :smile:
 
Re: 9/23 Apollo AMPS 600+

I shoot Moonie between the shoulder blades, and always while she is eating a dried chicken treat, or even real chicken--I find the distraction of eating, she lets me do most things to her-test & shoot.
We all felt overwhelmed, and so upset when we first came here, but it just becomes a way of life, and some adjustments must be made--BUT When you see your cat, looking better, feeling better & acting like he used to be, It's all worth it!
You are doing fine-If you cant get a urine from him, the vet will do a needle urine extraction from his bladder..As I didnt want Moonie to get that recently, I stalked her with a big soup ladle & as she squatted in the LB, whoosh, I swooped in & got a sample--Only took me 3 1/2 yrs to do that :lol: and almost 5 hours of stalking :lol: --Things will get better-just be patient, ask questions, & read the info we give..It will all work out!
 
Re: 9/23 Apollo AMPS 600+

I shoot Moonie between the shoulder blades, and always while she is eating a dried chicken treat, or even real chicken--I find the distraction of eating, she lets me do most things to her-test & shoot.
We all felt overwhelmed, and so upset when we first came here, but it just becomes a way of life, and some adjustments must be made--BUT When you see your cat, looking better, feeling better & acting like he used to be, It's all worth it!
You are doing fine-If you cant get a urine from him, the vet will do a needle urine extraction from his bladder..As I didnt want Moonie to get that recently, I stalked her with a big soup ladle & as she squatted in the LB, whoosh, I swooped in & got a sample--Only took me 3 1/2 yrs to do that :lol: and almost 5 hours of stalking :lol: --Things will get better-just be patient, ask questions, & read the info we give..It will all work out!
 
Re: 9/23 Apollo AMPS 600+

I shoot Moonie between the shoulder blades, and always while she is eating a dried chicken treat, or even real chicken--I find the distraction of eating, she lets me do most things to her-test & shoot.
We all felt overwhelmed, and so upset when we first came here, but it just becomes a way of life, and some adjustments must be made--BUT When you see your cat, looking better, feeling better & acting like he used to be, It's all worth it!
You are doing fine-If you cant get a urine from him, the vet will do a needle urine extraction from his bladder..As I didnt want Moonie to get that recently, I stalked her with a big soup ladle & as she squatted in the LB, whoosh, I swooped in & got a sample--Only took me 3 1/2 yrs to do that :lol: and almost 5 hours of stalking :lol: --Things will get better-just be patient, ask questions, & read the info we give..It will all work out!
 
Re: 9/23 Apollo AMPS 600+

Well Apollo just threw up. Had a pretty good size hairball in it, so not sure if the food made him sick or the hairball. Oh boy.
 
Re: 9/23 Apollo AMPS 600+

Sometimes hairballs cause the higher numbers. It's good he got rid of it!!

Do you have any more test numbers for today? If so, go back to your first post of the day, press the "edit" button and add the numbers to the subject line and then press "submit". That way people will be able to see them easily. (If you put them into the subject line of a later post, they will only be in that particular post.)

Hey John: breathe! It will be OK.

Ella
 
Re: 9/23 Apollo AMPS 600+

Good Morning John, it's still morning here at least. Ouch on that number, but getting rid of the dry food should help a lot.

I the Lb is in the closet I can see why you use a hooded one, but it is really best no to. Maybe build a shelf over it? Then you could easily slide the LB out. (And have more shoe space! :lol: ) Try putting a piece of Saran Wrap on top and some non absorbent sand or aquarium gravel. You only need a drop to test.

We use the Tidy Cat Breeze for Tess too. Much less mess to deal with and really easy to test for ketones. That is a great deal that Celi found. Much less smell too, I didn't realize how much better it was until i had to take care of my sister's cat. Pew!
 
Re: 9/23 Apollo AMPS 600+

Well I think I am going to take him in to see the Vet. I just found a small lump near the bottom of his tail that he howls when I touch it. Also while I am there I want to have them check his ketones and also just give him an update on where we are at this time. I will post back once I get back from the Vet.
 
Re: 9/23 Apollo AMPS 600+

Paws crossed for a good vet report. Hopefully it is something simple like impacted glands, more common in dogs I think, but it happens to cats too.
 
Re: 9/23 Apollo AMPS 600+

hi john. is there any possibility of getting a mid-cycle spot check today? it's likely 2u is not enough insulin, but a mid-cycle spot check would confirm.


injection sites for cats:

injsitesforcats1.jpg

injsitesforcats2.jpg


shooting into the scruff or shoulder blade area is fine. i've tried flank shots several times with alex and it's a no - go. i value my fingers too much to continue trying. if apollo tolerates shots in the scruff, stick with it for now. you can always experiment with different locations as time goes on. the important thing is to get the insulin into the cat!


ketones/diabetic ketoacidosis (DKA):

check out these links for more than you ever wanted to know about ketones...

Pet Health: Ketones, Ketoacidosis and Diabetic Cats
Ketoacidosis

yes, it's very important to test for ketones in situations like yours. i have 4 cats so i can relate to the difficulty in collecting a sample from the right cat. you may have to temporarily isolate apollo in a separate room with a litter box for a few hours each day to collect a urine sample.

take the lid off the litter box. this is temporary condition.

if apollo will let you, wait for him to get in the litter box and then use a long-handled soup ladle and gently place it under his rear end until you hear the urine collecting in the spoon. once cats start peeing *usually* they won't stop.

other methods some have used:

  • place the strip into the stream of urine as he's peeing
  • replace the litter with aquarium gravel. as soon as he leaves the box, dip the ketostix into the puddle of urine.
  • replace the litter with lentil beans. dip the ketostix as soon as he leaves the box.
  • if you see him use the litter box, sometimes there will be a little bit of unabsorbed urine on the top of the litter. dip the ketostix in it immediately.
  • using the litter breeze system

i know testing urine may seem impossible, but it's not. observation will help you become familiar with his litter box habits. alex is a DKA survivor and there's no way i want to put her or myself for that matter through that again. testing urine for ketones is very, very important. the recipe for ketones is insufficient insulin + inappetance/decreased appetite + infection.


hairballs:
i don't know if anyone else experienced this, but when i switched all our cats over to a wet diet initially i saw an increase in hairballs. it stopped after awhile.



just saw your post about a lump near apollo's tail and your impending vet visit as i was typing.
hope it's nothing more than an anal gland that needs expressing. btw, hairballs brewing and impacted anal glands can cause a rise in numbers.
update when you can.
 
Re: 9/23 Apollo AMPS 600+

Ok I just got home from the vet. I wasn't able to get a spot check done earlier as my strips hadn't arrived yet. I now have 50 of them and should be able to get a curve done this weekend.

Well I explained everything to the vet. He was really glad I became so informed about how to treat Apollo and using Lantus. I was concerned I might come across as too preachy and trying to tell him what we should be doing, etc. Luckily, I think he was just pleased I wanted to take the initiative to help Apollo as much as I can. He was honest and said he just didn't have much experience with Lantus, but he was eager to learn. I brought the Lantus Pen with me and my spreadsheet, so he could see what I was doing. I gave him the article that was suggested to me earlier and he gladly accepted it. He thanked me for the info and said he knows of 5 cats being treated right now that might be good candidates to switch to Lantus. That made me feel better knowing my love for Apollo might also help out other cats. :smile:

He did a thorough exam. It turns out the bump I felt on Apollo's tail was just a matted clump of hair. I could have sworn I felt a lump, but nope we checked together and nothing was there. Apollo's hair has more dandruff and been dry and clumpy lately. So I looked a little foolish, but I'll take that as long as he is ok. :oops:

Now he said he didn't feel enough urine in him to feel comfortable drawing from the bladder to get a ketone test, but he felt that he didn't have that as an issue at this point. He said to monitor him and see how things go.

I told him he did vomit earlier and it might have been caused by the hairball, or maybe just the new wet food? He gave me some solution to give to him to help settle his stomach, but he didn't feel like anything major was wrong. He even did an x-ray to rule out any large hairballs that might have been lurking inside. All his internals came back looking normal.

He said to do the curve and see where Apollo's numbers end up this weekend. He said if he is still super high at the lowest point in the curve he would want me to go up to 3 units twice a day. Then give it a few days, do a curve and you all know the rest.

My vet means well, but at this point I am paying him to teach him. Do you think I should consider finding a new vet that is more diabetes knowledgeable or just leave it be for now? My fear is most vets in this area are not going to be knowledgeable. He even said himself you wouldn't believe the number of people that want to put their animals down when they are diagnosed with diabetes. I can't fathom that thought.

Since Apollo didn't have much to eat today (after throwing up from this morning), I offered him some Wellness Chicken. He sniffed it a bit, but didn't have much interest. I need to get some of that Fortiflora and maybe that might help motivate him.

So there you have it. I tend to over analyze things and with some things in life it's a wonderful quality to have, but other times I make things into worse then they really are. It's a double edge sword. Thanks again to everyone for all your love and support. You really are the only knowledgeable folks I have to turn to.
 
Re: 9/23 Apollo AMPS 600+

Glad to hear that the vet visit went well. We have all been there and most have vets like yours. He is willing to learn and that is very helpful. My vet was dosing based on a general scenario and she did not know that much about Lantus. She did, however, tell me to join this group and believes in what this forum is doing. Tarragon would not be doing as well as he is without all of the support and advice I have gotten here. You are doing a great job and it will get easier, I promise you that. When anyone on thisboard asks you questions it really is just to help you and Apollo. We are one big family.

I think almost all of us have heard the "it's just a cat" from our non cat friends, co-workers and even family. I don't talk about Tarragon and his issues to my face to face acquaintances much because they could never understand. So...hang in there, read all you can, and ask a lot of questions on the board. All of us care about Apollo and just want to help you. One thing you need to remind yourself a lot is that it is a marathon and not a sprint. It will take time, LOTS of patience and even a lot of venting but you will get there.

Once your head stops spinning from info overload, it also helps to read and visit other condos. I have learned a lot when I read what others have gone through and the advice they were given.
 
Re: 9/23 Apollo AMPS 600+

a lump of matted hair is better than an impacted anal gland! ;-)

your vet sound like he's very receptive and willing to work with you. that alone scores an A in my book. i had a similar situation with my vet. imho, he was/is a great vet, but was lacking in the area of feline diabetes and lantus. umm, and let's just say... when i switched to levemir i had to spell it for him. 'nuff said?

my vet's the one with the DVM after his name, but 5+ years later he's the first to admit we've learned together. from what you've said... your vet may be saying the same a few years down the road. a vet who is willing to partner up with you to take care of your cats could very well be a keeper.

about ketones... they can develop in a matter of hours so i continue to strongly urge you to test apollo's urine for ketones. things can get ugly fast. for example, my own cat was not showing any outward signs of throwing ketones in the vet's office one day (vet didn't check for ketones) and the next day she was in DKA and hospitalized for a week.

it's a particularly dangerous time for developing ketones when a cat is switching insulins and starting over at a much lower dose. not to mention a food switch going on at the same time. apollo may not be eating as much as he normally does while you're transitioning him. please, check for ketones whenever you can. kitties in DKA are very sick. not all survive. it's also a very costly treatment... we're talking vet bills which could easily be $2K -$4k.

some things you may have in the house to entice him to eat wet food:
parmesan cheese --- sprinkle on wet food
dry food --- crush or put some in a processor and sprinkle it on top of wet food
powdered oregano --- sprinkle on
low sodium/no sodium tuna juice --- pour a little on wet food
low sodium chicken broth --- pour a little on food
freeze dried chicken treats --- crumble and sprinkle on wet food

about the dose... as soon as you can start getting mid-cycle spot checks we can evaluate the dose. with numbers that high and coming off a much higher dose... personally, i'm not comfortable waiting until after the weekend to adjust the dose if an adjustment is needed. i'm also not fond of increasing in increments of full units. remember yesterday i mentioned "fast tracking" apollo up the dosing scale if necessary. depending on his numbers, that *could* mean increasing by 0.5u after every 4 - 6 cycles. like i said, it all depends on his numbers. in order to make that call we need mid-cycle spot checks. make sense?

however, i am not a vet. if i disagree i'll say so, but i respect whatever decisions you make. apollo is your cat. all decisions are yours to make.
 
Re: 9/23 Apollo AMPS 600+

So glad to hear the vet visit went well. I would keep your vet for now since he is willing to learn and since you have all the info you need here on how to deal with this. Your vet is open minded and it doesn't sound like he is threatened by all these laypeople giving you advice.

You might want to crumble some of that freeze dried chicken into a powder and spinkle it on the food. That always works for Morgaine. It is important not to let Apollo go without food for more than a day so be sure he eats something. Make him some chicken or try some Fancy Feast appetizers which are apparently very tasty, according to Morgaine. :lol: Although the chicken and the appetizers do not have complete nutrition, they are very low in carbs and the food is needed to prevent more serious issues from developing.

You are making progress and you are learning fast. Hang in there.

I meant to mention this as well. There is a meter that measure ketones in the blood. Of course it is another expense but it is available. It is the Precision X Tra by Abbott Labs. You have to be sure to buy the ketone strips for it as the regular strips only measure glucose. I have this meter but have never used it for ketones. Keep in mind that it is calibrated for plasma blood level so it will read higher than a meter calibrated for whole blood which most of them are. That is for blood glucose only. I realize this may not be an expense you want to add to everything else but it is an option if you can not get a urine sample.

Keeping you and Apollo in my thoughts and prayers. He is going to feel so much better when his numbers come down and they will. You will also feel much better and you may even begin to look forward to testing to see those lower numbers. For me, there is nothing like knowing that my girl is regulated and not living in a danger zone with diabetes. Kitties can and do live out their normal life span with well regulated Diabetes and some go into remission. You WILL get there.
 
Re: 9/23 Apollo AMPS 600+

Hi John! You and your wife sound like wonderful caregivers...Apollo is one lucky family member! ;-)

When Stella developed Neuropathy, grooming became something she gave up completely. Now I understand the grooming took too much energy and she had to focus energy to healing...not grooming. So, make sure you brush Apollo daily to pick up the slack. :cool: You can pull the hair upward, and just cut off the clump of tangled fur with scissors. Apollo will probably appreciate this gesture because you know cats love to be well-groomed and Apollo might be :oops: embarrassed by his slacking.

As far as food, pop open the chicken and herring. I don't know a cat that can resist it. Also, keep in mind sometimes we as humans get upset stomaches and we get picky too...so have a variety on hand until his little nose likes what he smells. If the one you opened was going to turn his stomache...he wouldn't touch it so you wouldn't have to clean up the throw up. :lol:

Good luck with everything...I am glad to see there is a 'fast track' to Apollo's healing dose. :mrgreen:
 
Re: 9/23 Apollo AMPS 600+

good to hear the lump was just fur. :-D :-D Try crumbling the freeze dried chicken on the Wellness chicken. Tess will usually eat it then. Why chicken on top of chicken is acceptable where the plain chicken is not is a mystery known only to cats. ohmygod_smile

Dr. Lisa advises that cats need a minimum of 15 kcal/pound of weight to avoid DKA. You can find the calories on Janet & Binky's List and sometimes on the can or the mfg's website. Wellness has about 40kcal/ ounce and is one of the higher calorie low carb foods.
 
Just wanted to give everyone a quick update. Tested Apollo PMPS and he had another "Hi" rating. I gave him 2 units and then fed him Wellness Chicken & Herring with chicken purebites crushed on top and I am happy to say he ate it. He ate about 3/4 a baby can. Is that enough? Still learning about wet food amounts to feed. Now I just have my fingers crossed he keeps it down. I also gave him some liquid meds the vet gave me to help settle his stomach.

John
 
yaaaay! happy to hear he ate it! i'm assuming when you said "baby can" you meant a 3oz. can.
a 3 oz can of wellness chicken & herring = approximately 104 calories.

75% x 104 calories = 78 calories

ann mentioned he needs at least 15kcal per pound to avoid DKA. how much does he weigh? multiply his weight x 15 calories to get the minimum amount of calories you should be shooting for daily.

i was hoping his preshot tonight would be lower. it's been 4 consecutive cycles at 2u bid. sure looks like he needs a dose adjustment. is testing him getting any easier? if you can get a before bed or mid-cycle spot check tonight and it's over 300 you could take him up to 2.5u in the morning (unless he throws you an unusually low preshot number in the morning). the reason why i'd hate to see you wait til after the weekend to adjust the dose is because the action of lantus is cumulative... meaning it can take a couple days or more to see the effects of a dose. we don't want him hanging out in the upper stratosphere too long.
 
Great news that Apollo decided to eat. Yippee!!!

With Neuropathy the body is being eaten away (muscle, tissue etc.) and if the cat needs food..the cat needs food! The poor thing needs energy if you understand what I am saying. Once you regulate the BG's and the nerve damage repairs, suddenly the kitty won't 'need' the food. I was feeding my Stella up to one can (5.5oz) and almost another 3/4 can a day!!! Now that she is 'regulated' she eats only 1 can (5.5oz) Now is the time for my vet to decide if Stella needs a diet... :lol:

Good night!
 
I couldn't sleep so I thought I would respond. Yes it was a 3oz can. He is 12 pounds so 180 calories. But he just does not seem all that hungry. Then again he is used to being free fed so I'm not exactly sure how much he has been eating in the past. My other two cats licked their plates clean, but Apollo still left a little bit on his plate. I'm a little worried he won't eat enough throughout the day. Is his appetite normal under the circumstances or no? I would have thought he would be ravinous, but not so much.

Testing seems to be getting harder now that he knows what is going to happen. I am getting better at it but Apollo isn't very happy with me when i do it. I will get a mid cycle number tomorrow. Just so I understand correctly that would be 6 hours after AM injection, correct? I can also do a curve if that would help. Can you direct me to how to do a curve? At what times do I check him throughout the cycle for this initial try.
 
Good morning! I'm glad to hear that Apollo ate! That is a great hurdle to jump. As for amounts, I pot out one 3oz can for Smoket am and pm. He eats most of it but only sometimes all of it. Smokey is 14 lbs but not a very active kitty. Hope this gives you an idea- I think that 2 3oz cans is prob fine as long as he eats most of it and he's getting some yummy treats in there as well. You're doing great!
 
Hey John,

Keep you chin up! You're doing great! :-D
I'll admit, I was overwhelmed, and I cried a few times. But, even just a month into this journey - with the help and encouragement of the great people here - it has gotten easier. It will for you too.

After 3 1/2 weeks of bribing Jetson with a freeze-dried chicken treat, he now hops on to the counter and sits fir his test when I show him the bag. Imagine my shock :shock: :o :-D the first time he did THAT!

Btw, Jetson's innards apparently don't appreciate Cowboy Cookout. He liked it and scarfed it down, but within a few minutes, invariably gave it back ohmygod_smile so I stopped feeding him that one. Really odd, but sometimes I guess they're sensitive to whatever ingredient is in there.

My vet had me start curve with tests every 2 hrs. Other, wiser folks here may have better ideas :-D

Good luck, I'll be thinking if you guys :smile:
 
John & Apollo said:
I couldn't sleep so I thought I would respond. Yes it was a 3oz can. He is 12 pounds so 180 calories. But he just does not seem all that hungry. Then again he is used to being free fed so I'm not exactly sure how much he has been eating in the past. My other two cats licked their plates clean, but Apollo still left a little bit on his plate. I'm a little worried he won't eat enough throughout the day. Is his appetite normal under the circumstances or no? I would have thought he would be ravinous, but not so much.
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no, his appetite is not normal under the circumstances. with numbers that high you would think he'd be wanting to eat you out of house and home. when kitties are high, they're usually ravenous. high numbers and lack of appetite is what has me on high alert for the possibility of him developing ketones. i know it must sound like i'm harping about checking for ketones, but it's in both your best interests to do whatever it takes to routinely check for ketones. routinely testing for ketones will give us a head's up to a potential problem and we can do what we can to keep things from getting worse. not testing for ketones can result in having to deal with the possibility of DKA. trust me, you don't want to go there. it's a serious and sometimes fatal condition... not to mention costly.

has apollo been tested for pancreatitis? it's estimated roughly 40% of diabetic cats have pancreatitis. the fPLI test (feline pancreatic lipase immunoreactivity) is one of the best diagnostic tests for chronic pancreatitis. all that is required is a simple blood draw and the vet sends the sample to Texas A&M University. your vet will know all about it.

Testing seems to be getting harder now that he knows what is going to happen. I am getting better at it but Apollo isn't very happy with me when i do it. I will get a mid cycle number tomorrow. Just so I understand correctly that would be 6 hours after AM injection, correct? I can also do a curve if that would help. Can you direct me to how to do a curve? At what times do I check him throughout the cycle for this initial try.
Click to expand...
initially, i found the secret to easy testing is treats and lots of praise for the kitty. a mid-cycle test at +6 is fine.

if you want to do a curve... any and all data collected provides information to the caregiver. think of spot checks/curves as pieces to a puzzle. the more pieces you have the easier it is to see the whole picture.

to do a full curve, you'd test every two hours from one shot time til the next. to do a mini-curve, you'd test every three hours from one shot time til the next.

however, i don't want you or apollo to become overwhelmed with testing until you become more comfortable with testing. on the other hand, the more practice you get the easier it will become. there's that double-edged sword again.

i'll be in and out (mostly out) all day. will check in when i can to see how things are going...
 
Good Morning John! Don't forget to start a new condo, 'thread' today linking this condo...'

I think a curve is a great idea!!! Unless they are all 'high' BGs maybe an 'expert' will suggest a new dose shortly? I do a curve, a mini curve the next day and alternate as able...because as many numbers as possible at different hours fills in the puzzle for all to see...unless again they are all 'high' and that is a very clear picture.

My kitty did't like the cowboy cookout either...must be an ingredient or two in there that is disagreeable.

I feed in an odd manner... when I am going to be home during the day I give a teaspoon in the morning and a smaller teaspoon after every BG test. This small little amount gets Stella through the day and reinforced the tests being done so often. I couldn't find a 'treat' she liked...so this is what I was forced to do. But, if you can't even get Apollo to eat..hmmm... he must not be feeling very well. Jill gave some great advice...
 
I couldn't agree with Jill more. Gabby is a DKA survivor. You really don't want to go there. A box of ketone strips will be one of the best and least costly methods of prevention you can buy.

I want to correct something that Mary/Stella posted.
With Neuropathy the body is being eaten away (muscle, tissue etc.) and if the cat needs food..the cat needs food! The poor thing needs energy if you understand what I am saying. Once you regulate the BG's and the nerve damage repairs, suddenly the kitty won't 'need' the food.
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Diabetic neuropathy has nothing to do with food consumption nor does it involve tissue erosion. In the case of diabetic neuropathy, excess blood sugar can cause nerve damage. Further, food does not repair the nerve damage. However, methyl B-12 does have a positive effect on neuropathy. Zobaline is a form of methyl B-12 that is formulated for cats and has no sugar or flavoring.
 
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