eccentricfuzzyme
Member Since 2011
Please check out my SS and see if this regular lowering of her amps over the last few days since the dose change is healthy/normal.
9/21 Josie AMPS 253 PMPS 148 116 +3 AT
- Thread starter eccentricfuzzyme
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mybuddybinks
Member Since 2010
Re: 9/21 Josie AMPS 253 AT (getting lower- normal?)
Hi!
looks like Josie is responding...but I'm bumping your post up for more experienced eyes.
Happy wednesday!
celi & binks
Hi!
looks like Josie is responding...but I'm bumping your post up for more experienced eyes.
Happy wednesday!
celi & binks
eccentricfuzzyme
Member Since 2011
Re: 9/21 Josie AMPS 253 AT (getting lower- normal?)
What are good goal amps and pmps numbers for a cat on insulin?
What are good goal amps and pmps numbers for a cat on insulin?
Squeaky and KT (GA)
Member Since 2011
Re: 9/21 Josie AMPS 253 AT (getting lower- normal?)
The goal is always to stay within the 'normal' range numbers.
Yes what you're seeing is normal - it shows that what you're doing is working! Wish MY extra sweet boy had a spreadsheet that looks like yours.
You're doing GREAT! and Josie is too!
The goal is always to stay within the 'normal' range numbers.
Yes what you're seeing is normal - it shows that what you're doing is working! Wish MY extra sweet boy had a spreadsheet that looks like yours.
You're doing GREAT! and Josie is too!
PeterDevonMocha
Member Since 2009
Re: 9/21 Josie AMPS 253 AT (getting lower- normal?)
Hi guys .. I don't think I've been in josie's condos before so welcome from us! 253 is a nice mid yellow to start the day out at, not bad! have a great day guys!
Hi guys .. I don't think I've been in josie's condos before so welcome from us! 253 is a nice mid yellow to start the day out at, not bad! have a great day guys!
Re: 9/21 Josie AMPS 253 AT (getting lower- normal?)
The goal of tight regulation is for your cat's numbers to be in the normal range -- 50 to 120.
I really, really want to encourage you to test during the PM cycle. Many cats experience lower numbers at night. In addition, if you don't test, you're missing half of your data. Further, Lantus dosing is based on the nadir, the lowest point in the cycle, not on the pre-shot test. Thus, it's important to get tests whenever you can during both the AM and PM cycle.
The goal of tight regulation is for your cat's numbers to be in the normal range -- 50 to 120.
I really, really want to encourage you to test during the PM cycle. Many cats experience lower numbers at night. In addition, if you don't test, you're missing half of your data. Further, Lantus dosing is based on the nadir, the lowest point in the cycle, not on the pre-shot test. Thus, it's important to get tests whenever you can during both the AM and PM cycle.
Karrie and Maverick
Member Since 2010
Re: 9/21 Josie AMPS 253 AT (getting lower- normal?)
Also remember you are on an alphatrack - so 50 for most of us is 80 for you.
How does a cat on kibble's numbers compare to most of us that feed low carb wet food also?
Did you post on where to find the B12 stuff in Canada also? Any replies?
Also remember you are on an alphatrack - so 50 for most of us is 80 for you.
How does a cat on kibble's numbers compare to most of us that feed low carb wet food also?
Did you post on where to find the B12 stuff in Canada also? Any replies?
eccentricfuzzyme
Member Since 2011
Re: 9/21 Josie AMPS 253 AT (getting lower- normal?)
She is 167 at +6.
Her shots are 11 and 11. So anything in past her shot is in the middle of the night. I do it right before getting ready for bed. And I know this may sound like blasphemy to most of you, but I have to put my own health above that of my cats. I cant get up several times during the night to do more readings.
She is 167 at +6.
Her shots are 11 and 11. So anything in past her shot is in the middle of the night. I do it right before getting ready for bed. And I know this may sound like blasphemy to most of you, but I have to put my own health above that of my cats. I cant get up several times during the night to do more readings.
mybuddybinks
Member Since 2010
Re: 9/21 Josie AMPS 253 AT (getting lower- normal?)
And it doesn't sound like blasphemy...you've got a lot on your plate
and if you aren't healthy, you can't help them get healthy!
Karrie and Maverick said:
And it doesn't sound like blasphemy...you've got a lot on your plate
and if you aren't healthy, you can't help them get healthy!
eccentricfuzzyme
Member Since 2011
Re: 9/21 Josie AMPS 253 +6 167 AT (getting lower- normal?)
Her pmps is 148. should i still give her her 3 units? this is lower that she was the other day when people recommended i didnt shoot.
Her pmps is 148. should i still give her her 3 units? this is lower that she was the other day when people recommended i didnt shoot.
eccentricfuzzyme
Member Since 2011
Re: 9/21 Josie AMPS 253 PMPS 148 AT (PLEASE ADVISE)
I cant wait any longer, I am giving her her normal dose.
I cant wait any longer, I am giving her her normal dose.
SmokeyD
Member Since 2011
Re: 9/21 Josie AMPS 253 PMPS 148 AT (should I dose her??)
Hi- I'm not the best one to give advice but it looks like Josie's numbers aren't coming up yet. Have a look at the sticky about shooting low numbers for a reference. Hopefully someone with more dosing experience will be along shortly to give more specific Advice. If it was smokey, I would test again in30 min and see if he was rising and hold off on the shot till his numbers were rising. You don't have a lot of information on How Josie responds yet. You have to skip a shot but please go back and read the sticky! ;-)
Hi- I'm not the best one to give advice but it looks like Josie's numbers aren't coming up yet. Have a look at the sticky about shooting low numbers for a reference. Hopefully someone with more dosing experience will be along shortly to give more specific Advice. If it was smokey, I would test again in30 min and see if he was rising and hold off on the shot till his numbers were rising. You don't have a lot of information on How Josie responds yet. You have to skip a shot but please go back and read the sticky! ;-)
mybuddybinks
Member Since 2010
Re: 9/21 Josie AMPS 253 PMPS 148 AT
bump
bump
Re: 9/21 Josie AMPS 253 PMPS 148 AT (should I dose her??)
Ordinarily, this would be an OK number to shoot. However, when shooting a lower number than usual, you need to get a +1 and a +2. If you can't test to make sure Josie is safe, I can't in good conscience suggest that you shoot. Is there any way to move your shot times earlier so you can get some PM tests?
Ordinarily, this would be an OK number to shoot. However, when shooting a lower number than usual, you need to get a +1 and a +2. If you can't test to make sure Josie is safe, I can't in good conscience suggest that you shoot. Is there any way to move your shot times earlier so you can get some PM tests?
Ella & Rusty & Stu(GA)
Member Since 2010
Re: 9/21 Josie AMPS 253 PMPS 148 AT
That's a pretty low number (AT) and you have to get your sleep. If you shoot your normal 3 units you may be up all night checking Josie's bg. If it were I, I would skip the shot tonight and ask for advice about lowering her dose. Your goal is to find a dose that you can shoot consistently (without having to skip shots).
Ella & Rusty
That's a pretty low number (AT) and you have to get your sleep. If you shoot your normal 3 units you may be up all night checking Josie's bg. If it were I, I would skip the shot tonight and ask for advice about lowering her dose. Your goal is to find a dose that you can shoot consistently (without having to skip shots).
Ella & Rusty
Jill & Alex (GA)
Member Since 2009
Re: 9/21 Josie AMPS 253 PMPS 148 AT (PLEASE ADVISE)
sorry, i'm coming to this after the fact. you've probably shot and are in bed already. getting a +1 and +2 will probably give you an idea whether monitoring will be necessary tonight.
earlier in this thread you said, "I cant get up several times during the night to do more readings." i hope you've reconsidered tonight since you've shot josie's lowest preshot ever. i also hope you left food out for josie to nibble on in case her numbers take a nose dive.
"Perhaps the most important guideline in shooting low is that any time you shoot your lowest ever number, you should get a +1 and +2 to give you an idea of how the cycle will go. If the +1 is not higher than PS, or if +2 is much lower than PS, that means “pay attention” over the next few hours. Those tests will also help you become even more data ready for the next time you are presented with a low preshot reading."
See: Shooting and Handling Low Numbers
sienne asked if there was any possibility you can move your shot times earlier in order to have a few hours before bedtime to handle situations that come up... like tonight. if not, perhaps it would be best if you followed the the "Start Low - Go Slow" approach and didn't shoot any preshot numbers under 200. to keep josie safe, the SLGS method may be a better fit for you than following a Tight Regulation Protocol.
eccentricfuzzyme said:
sorry, i'm coming to this after the fact. you've probably shot and are in bed already. getting a +1 and +2 will probably give you an idea whether monitoring will be necessary tonight.
earlier in this thread you said, "I cant get up several times during the night to do more readings." i hope you've reconsidered tonight since you've shot josie's lowest preshot ever. i also hope you left food out for josie to nibble on in case her numbers take a nose dive.
"Perhaps the most important guideline in shooting low is that any time you shoot your lowest ever number, you should get a +1 and +2 to give you an idea of how the cycle will go. If the +1 is not higher than PS, or if +2 is much lower than PS, that means “pay attention” over the next few hours. Those tests will also help you become even more data ready for the next time you are presented with a low preshot reading."
See: Shooting and Handling Low Numbers
sienne asked if there was any possibility you can move your shot times earlier in order to have a few hours before bedtime to handle situations that come up... like tonight. if not, perhaps it would be best if you followed the the "Start Low - Go Slow" approach and didn't shoot any preshot numbers under 200. to keep josie safe, the SLGS method may be a better fit for you than following a Tight Regulation Protocol.
eccentricfuzzyme
Member Since 2011
Re: 9/21 Josie AMPS 253 PMPS 148 AT
i cannot change the times i give the shots, 11 and 11 are the only times i can be home every day of the week.
any earlier and i would have to stop leaving the house all together. i cant just quit my whole life to care full time for a cat.
It is +3 after her pm shot and she is still low, 116.
I have no idea what this means. She is acting normal. It is 2:30 in the monring and I am going to bed.
i cannot change the times i give the shots, 11 and 11 are the only times i can be home every day of the week.
any earlier and i would have to stop leaving the house all together. i cant just quit my whole life to care full time for a cat.
It is +3 after her pm shot and she is still low, 116.
I have no idea what this means. She is acting normal. It is 2:30 in the monring and I am going to bed.
eccentricfuzzyme
Member Since 2011
Re: 9/21 Josie AMPS 253 AT (getting lower- normal?)
I posted but dont have an answer yet.
I also asked where to find cheap strips in Ottawa, as the relion isnt available here and paying 1$+ per strip means I cant home test daily. I cant spend 100$ a month on test strips alone, I am disabilty, after rent I have under 400$ a month for bills, food, buspass, etc. I just cannot afford the level of care she needs, but she is a senior diabetic cat. Shelters would put her down instantly/.
Karrie and Maverick said:
I posted but dont have an answer yet.
I also asked where to find cheap strips in Ottawa, as the relion isnt available here and paying 1$+ per strip means I cant home test daily. I cant spend 100$ a month on test strips alone, I am disabilty, after rent I have under 400$ a month for bills, food, buspass, etc. I just cannot afford the level of care she needs, but she is a senior diabetic cat. Shelters would put her down instantly/.
SmokeyD
Member Since 2011
Good morning Josie and bean! I hope the rest of the night went well and that you were able to get some rest. Given your situation, it sounds like the "start low go slow" approach mentioned before might be a better fit for you and Josie. If you keep her numbers higher overall then you won't be caught having to get up in the middle of the night. It might also be a better option is you're having to feed dry food. I'm thinking that would mean a dose reduction though, as you are getting numbers too low to shoot on that protocol on 3u. Maybe read over that protocol and see what others think.
This board is here to help you and Josie- not make you feel guilty. The Tight Regulation Protocol seems to be very intense and, while it most closely mimics a "normal" bg regulation in cats, it isn't for everyone. Hang in there!
This board is here to help you and Josie- not make you feel guilty. The Tight Regulation Protocol seems to be very intense and, while it most closely mimics a "normal" bg regulation in cats, it isn't for everyone. Hang in there!
Ann & Maggie11 (GA)
Member Since 2010
Hi Josie, the quote above is from Karrie and it's something to remember. Are you using the AlphaTrak meter? Most here, except for a few, use the human meters. The AlphaTrak meter measures 30 percent higher than the human meters used by most here. I hope I'm not confusing you, but if you're using the AlphaTrak, your regulated range of bg numbers would be 80 - 150! The 50 - 120 bg would be for the human meter. Someone here can correct me if I'm wrong.
eccentricfuzzyme
Member Since 2011
if 80 - 150 is regulated number on AT what is the problem? Is that supposed to be her starting number in the morning?
SmokeyD
Member Since 2011
I think that the concern is that if you give a shot at 148 (which is a great number on AT), you don't really know how low that will take Josie's BG at nadir, given that you've only been giving insulin for a short time and you are starting from a lower BG number than previously. So, if you're not able to check Josie's BG several times throughout that cycle, you risk her getting too low and potentially experiencing hypoglycemia- which can kill. Does that make sense?
eccentricfuzzyme
Member Since 2011
She is at 160 right now, before her morning shot. I started a new thread for today. Is that too low to shoot? I can wait for about an hour or so but then have to go.
eccentricfuzzyme
Member Since 2011
It is a weekday, so no. I can stay home for an extra hour or maybe two, but then wont be home again til + 8
Ella & Rusty & Stu(GA)
Member Since 2010
Hi again, Angela,
The "normal range" (which is based on the blood glucose numbers of a non-diabetic cat) means that the diabetic cat on insulin should ideally stay within this range of numbers for the whole 12-hour cycle. You have to take into account not only the pre-shot number, but also the nadir--the point in the cycle where the lowest number is reached. Generally speaking, with Lantus the number at +1 is usually higher than the pre-shot number; the number at +2 is usually about the same as pre-shot. If the number is falling by +1 and +2, it indicates an active cycle and you need to be prepared to test and intervene (with food) if you see that the cat is continuing to drop. Since you didn't test at +1 or +2 last night, you don't really know where the 116 at +3 is coming from. Is it continuing to accelerate a drop that began earlier? Is it simply a moderate drop at "onset" (the point at which the insulin begins to kick-in)? You ask what the problem is, and SmokeyD answered:
Your goal is always to keep Josie in safe numbers. You don't want her nadir to be below 80 on the Alpha Trak.
The reason folks here are concerned is that you are very new to Lantus and FD in general. Your vet apparently prescribed a dose that was too high (4 units bid). You have since, wisely, reduced the dose to 3 units bid. It may well be the case that the dose should be lower than that. But the only way to find out is to get as much data as you can. If pre-shot numbers seem to be so low that the nadir might wind up too low, then you will need to make adjustments in dose. There are some very knowledgeable people here who can help you with that, but if the data are insufficient, their task is made much more difficult.
I hope you don't think that you are being harassed! Everyone here just wants Josie to be well again. We understand that all this is very new to you and that there is a terribly lot of stuff to learn and to deal with. It will all get much easier. Please don't get distressed. Just try to do as well as you can and soon you will feel much more comfortable.
Ella & Rusty
p.s. I hope that you will be able to solve the problem of the expensive meter and strips. Do you have a Walmart or a Costco in Ottawa? If so, check out what other meters are available. You will certainly be able to find one that uses strips that are less costly than those for the Alpha Trak.
The "normal range" (which is based on the blood glucose numbers of a non-diabetic cat) means that the diabetic cat on insulin should ideally stay within this range of numbers for the whole 12-hour cycle. You have to take into account not only the pre-shot number, but also the nadir--the point in the cycle where the lowest number is reached. Generally speaking, with Lantus the number at +1 is usually higher than the pre-shot number; the number at +2 is usually about the same as pre-shot. If the number is falling by +1 and +2, it indicates an active cycle and you need to be prepared to test and intervene (with food) if you see that the cat is continuing to drop. Since you didn't test at +1 or +2 last night, you don't really know where the 116 at +3 is coming from. Is it continuing to accelerate a drop that began earlier? Is it simply a moderate drop at "onset" (the point at which the insulin begins to kick-in)? You ask what the problem is, and SmokeyD answered:
Your goal is always to keep Josie in safe numbers. You don't want her nadir to be below 80 on the Alpha Trak.
The reason folks here are concerned is that you are very new to Lantus and FD in general. Your vet apparently prescribed a dose that was too high (4 units bid). You have since, wisely, reduced the dose to 3 units bid. It may well be the case that the dose should be lower than that. But the only way to find out is to get as much data as you can. If pre-shot numbers seem to be so low that the nadir might wind up too low, then you will need to make adjustments in dose. There are some very knowledgeable people here who can help you with that, but if the data are insufficient, their task is made much more difficult.
I hope you don't think that you are being harassed! Everyone here just wants Josie to be well again. We understand that all this is very new to you and that there is a terribly lot of stuff to learn and to deal with. It will all get much easier. Please don't get distressed. Just try to do as well as you can and soon you will feel much more comfortable.
Ella & Rusty
p.s. I hope that you will be able to solve the problem of the expensive meter and strips. Do you have a Walmart or a Costco in Ottawa? If so, check out what other meters are available. You will certainly be able to find one that uses strips that are less costly than those for the Alpha Trak.
eccentricfuzzyme
Member Since 2011
The problem is, even if I could afford to test her 8 times a day, I cant stay home and awake that often.
Caring for her is putting me more and more in debt every week and I dont know how long I will be able to keep it up.
Caring for her is putting me more and more in debt every week and I dont know how long I will be able to keep it up.
Ella & Rusty & Stu(GA)
Member Since 2010
You certainly don't need to test 8 times a day. The tests that are important to get are: pre-shots (so you know if it is safe to give insulin) and something near the middle of the cycle whenever possible (so you get an idea of what the nadir might be). Many people do the minimum number of tests during the week and do mini curves (AMPS, +3, +6, +9, PMPS) or more extensive curves (AMPS, +2, +4, +6, +8, +10, PMPS) on weekends. This is a good way to gather data.
Those people whose jobs do not permit then to get home during the day test at AMPS, PMPS, and get in a bedtime test during the work week. Since your bedtime is the same as PMPS, perhaps you could set an alarm for PMPS +6, test, and go back to sleep. You could vary the times of this "mid-cycle" test and try to get it in between +4 and +7. That would give you some useful data.
Try to keep an open mind. It will all work out. You can do this!
Ella
Those people whose jobs do not permit then to get home during the day test at AMPS, PMPS, and get in a bedtime test during the work week. Since your bedtime is the same as PMPS, perhaps you could set an alarm for PMPS +6, test, and go back to sleep. You could vary the times of this "mid-cycle" test and try to get it in between +4 and +7. That would give you some useful data.
Try to keep an open mind. It will all work out. You can do this!
Ella
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