9/11 NEW INFO-READING Is short-term insulin use

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DarylS

DarylS

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Hi, this is Daryl and our cat is Chico. This is my second post and thanks to all who have offered help as we get started. We have been trying to manage Chico's new diabetes with diet alone for the past 3 weeks. We were very encouraged by his dramatic response in that his symptoms went away vitrtually immediately when we got him off dry hi-carb food. However re-check at vet showed glucose still over 300, but he was very stressed. In the interim I also found this site and am better educated. We just started home testing, today is just our 3rd day at that. What I am wondering is: if he needs insulin initially to get his disease under control are we then "doomed" for long-term insulin use or is it realistic to think it could be needed only short-term and then managed adequately by just diet regulation? I'd love to hear from others who have gone down this road a little sooner. I want to have a realistic idea of what to expect, so please let me hear either way. I should note that we are quite confident we caught his diabetes early as we had just had him checked recently. Thanks again!
 
Re: Is short-term insulin use possible/likely?

Every cat is different. With early treatment with insulin, the likelihood of not needing insulin later on increases.
 
Re: Is short-term insulin use possible/likely?

Hi Daryl, and, of course, you too, sweet Chico,

Larry's right! ECID -- Every Cat Is Different.

Chico might just need insulin for a short time to give his pancreas a rest before jump-starting it again. Changing his diet is definitely a great start! But, honestly, Daryl? It's a crap shoot. EPID -- Every Pancreas Is Different...

When Gizzie was diagnosed shortly after her 14th Birthday, I quickly realized her pancreas was pretty much for decoration only. I had hopes for Nikki when she came to rescue me. Turns out I'm apparently a sucker for furry, non-functioning, feline pancreases...

Does this mean I'm doomed? Heck no! (And, no, heck wasn't my original word choice...) I actually feel blessed. Dancing with a sugar cat is a wondrous journey! (Okay, steel-tipped toe shoes and a football helmet help for those days or nights you bang your head or toes against a hard surface...)

The thing to remember, Daryl, is this. Much life and countless joy can be lived in 12-hour increments. Chico might be on insulin for a month or a lifetime. No one but Chico can say for certain...

You also need to remember that Chico is still your cat. He's just extra-sweet!




Welcome to the place you never, ever wanted to be; but, will be blessed for having found! Trust me! Better yet, trust us!

Love and countless encouraging hugs,
Deb and Nikki -- and, Giz, forever dancing in my heart...
 
Re: Is short-term insulin use possible/likely?

DarylS said:
What I am wondering is: if he needs insulin initially to get his disease under control are we then "doomed" for long-term insulin use or is it realistic to think it could be needed only short-term and then managed adequately by just diet regulation?
Click to expand...

Yes, it is indeed realistic to hope that Chico's diabetes might go into remission. But right now, it is best to not get the cart before the horse. Congratulations on hometesting. You can share those blood glucose test results with us. Go to the FDMB Index Page, click on Tech Support, then click on the topic, "How to Create Your Own SS and Publish It in Your Signature." If you enter your test results info into this spreadsheet you will be sharing it with all of us. The next important thing for you and your cat is to get Chico's blood glucose results down into normal territory so his pancreas can get a chance to start repairing itself.

Lana
 
Re: Is short-term insulin use possible/likely?

Daryl
ECID
When Bob and I started doing this sugardance, he was in much worse shape than Chico seems to be. Bob was on insulin for about ten weeks. He went OTJ on July 19th.
But even if he regresses, I will not feel doomed. Heck, if I become diabetic I won't feel doomed. I think I would look at it like "okay, bob is going to need his ' vitamins' twice a day for the rest of his life." The bonding experience between you and Chico during this dance is going to be incredible. And you are going to make some really great freindships along the way here.
Carl and Bob in SC
 
Re: Is short-term insulin use possible/likely?

Welcome!

Every cat is different, but the best published study out there had a remission rate of 84% for cats who started treatment within 6 months of diagnosis (64% overall). That was using a relatively agressive approach called "Tight Regulation" using Lantus or Levemir as the insulins. A lot of members of this board have had similarly positive results, and certainly lots of cats have gone into remission with other insulins and other dosing approaches. Cats are amazingly resiliant compared to humans when it comes to diabetes.

As a case in point, my S'mores was diagnosed in the ER with both diabetes and diabetic ketoacidosis (DKA), and he was in very bad shape in 24hr care for a couple days. 4 (admitedly long) weeks later, he was completely off the juice.

If you want to go the TR route, you will need to do a good bit of reading to get prepared. There is a ton more information over in the Lantus forum here.
 
Re: Is short-term insulin use possible/likely?

This is so neat to be able to ask a question and w/in hours have lots of answers and encouragement. Thanks to each of you who have responded. Sam--I will read that article ASAP, thanks for the hint, is is a little challenging to begin with to figure out just where to look and what all is available on the site. Lana, I will also attempt to post Chico's BS's as soon as I have a few extra minutes to figure out that process. And Bob--your story was helpful too, and I knew when I said "doomed" it was probably the wrong choice of words, but it is frightening to try to figure out how you will manage to meet your cats needs and still keep your travel plans, etc. We were really upset this morning cause Chico's first BS was 334, and that was after all night with no food. But they have steadily come down throughout the day with the last being 165. So that is more encouraging, even though still a way to go. Thanks again, I'll be back soon I'm sure!! Daryl & Chico (will also try to find where I put his picture so it will show up with my signature, so you all can see my handsome dude!)
 
Re: Is short-term insulin use possible/likely?

Well, when my Tom was dx'd 4 plus years ago I would have sworn he was on deaths doorstep. I actually would lay next to him on the floor trying to memorize each and every strand of fur on his beautiful face!
Well, not 31 days later he was OTJ ... on pzi.
The only reason he had to use insulin again after 2.5 years otj was my own negligence thinking a H/C treat every now and then....soon to be every day. I noticed the tell tale signs and yep...diabetes back. For over a year.
He is once again OTJ on Levemir.

Is your kitty a steroid induced diabetic by any chance. I have a feeling these kitties are more likely to otj.
Lori
and Tom
 
Re: Is short-term insulin use possible/likely?

That's so awesome Lori. No, Chico was not on steroids. Several months back at routine check-up there was some protein in his urine and vet suggested we switch to a lower protein food. I'm convenienced it was this diet change to a lower protein food (both his previous and the new were dry) that tipped things for him. I'm very unhappy with this vet's recommendation, it seems crazy after all I've learned now. Only seeing the other partner at that office now, and may change completely, but in middle of a crisis is a hard time to change too. Daryl & Chico
 
Re: Is short-term insulin use possible/likely?

Here is the original article if you want to read it. Someone here posted it for me when I first started.



Lori: Steroid use is shown to be a very good predictor of remission (the only thing other than time since diagnosis)
 

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Re: Is short-term insulin use possible/likely?



Hi Daryl! same name/spelling as my husband :-D

yes, it's possible. but even if chico doesn't go off of insulin right away, what we can be pretty certain of is that we can help you get his blood sugar under control and get him feeling good again.

here's an article about remission and Lantus compared to 2 other kinds of insulin.

i would encourage you not to wait any longer to start the insulin. once you bite the bullet and do it chico will start feeling better. an undiabetic cat's BG runs 40-120ish, and you want to avoid organ damage by helping him get under control as soon as possible.

once you get your insulin, feel free to post on the insulin support groups and folks will help you begin to learn to use whatever insulin you are on.

welcome to the most supportive site ever! you'll get a ton of help here to help you get chico well!
 

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Re: Is short-term insulin use possible/likely?

Hi Julie,
Thanks for the article and the suggestions. (Oh, and just cause most people probably assume I'm a guy, I'll mention I am a female DARYL). We've had the added complication of having been with a vet that we've only been marginally satisfied with for some time. Now with Chico's disease we have made the decision to make a change and we are seeing the new vet Tuesday. I've been trying to test him multiple times a day so we can bring lots of data. I'll also read the article prior to the appointment. Your kitty and Chico look a lot a like. By the way--I can't seem to find how you post your cat's picture with your signature. If you have time would you point me in the right direction (or any other reader that can take the time--and I promise I'm not just being lazy, I did look and poke around some of the getting started info).

It's not that we are adverse to giving insulin per se, it's just that we worry about how we can maintain the regime. We travel quite a bit and Chico has a very sensitive temperment. I'm not sure even the woman who has come in to care for him while we are gone (for 11 years-all his life) could give him shots. He just doesn't let many people touch him. He is cooperative, but very anxious at the vet. At home he may hiss and growl at visitors, others he will tolerate. So, lots of issues, but we will try to take it one step at a time.
I do appreciate the support. Thanks, Daryl
 
Re: Is short-term insulin use possible/likely?

ah, sorry! i should've guessed. everyone thinks my husband's name is a girl name!

ok, for your avatar picture -

first you need to shrink a picture to use - go to http://www.shrinkpictures.com
~~btw, it says "Maximum dimensions; width: 90 pixels, height: 90 pixels, file size: 9.77 KiB." by my avatar pic
and save it - i think i saved mine on photobucket.


then go to your user control panel panel - just down from the top left-hand corner of the main page
from the user control panel choose the tab "profile"
along the left side is the option "edit avatar"
then "choose picture"

just like magic!

that's the same general location to add your spreadsheet to your signature line.

perhaps others will have some thoughts, but i don't think there's any need for you to do a bunch of testing now. maybe once or twice a day - and note how many hours since he's eaten. we test so we can keep them safe while using insulin. if you're not injecting insulin there's not any real reason to test that i can think of. i'd probably do one test right before feeding breakfast and maybe another one 2 hours later. then let it go.

what kind of numbers are you getting? under/over 200? under 100? or?

the shooting insulin becomes nothing. i test punkin to make sure it's safe to give him insulin, then get his breakfast or dinner ready and draw the insulin into the syringe. when i put his food down he drops his face in like a shop-vac. he eats, i lift up a tent of skin and shoot. it's over in seconds and he doesn't even flinch. i tried to do it separate from food at the beginning, and that was, uh, let's call it More Challenging Than It Had To Be! :lol:

most of us shoot while they're distracted eating. it's a much better plan. i actually think testing is harder than shooting - i shot for 2 months before i started testing. ohmygod_smile but now it's all easy. at first it probably took me 1/2 hr each test-feed-shoot - now it's probably 2 minutes. you just get good at it. everyone does.

glad you're finding a vet that works better for you. a good relationship is nice.
 
Re: Is short-term insulin use possible/likely?

I think of it this way - Chico's pancreas is not feeling well for some reason that we may never know. Because it is not well, it is not producing enough insulin. We do know this because the cat is diabetic. We also can guess that your cat's pancreas is capable of producing some insulin b/c Chico appeared to feel better (decreased symptoms) with a diet change.

Giving insulin shots to Chico will give his pancreas a rest from feeling totally responsible for all the insulin production. He will get more nutrition from the food that he eats. All his organs will function better with lowered blood glucose, including his pancreas, as high bg creates a toxic environment in the body.

So the big question is 'will his pancreas heal enough to take over the job completely of providing the body with insulin?' or will it always need a little help. Because we don't know why it is not happy, it is hard to predict precisely. However, we do know (from the studies that you have the links to) that the sooner insulin is started and the protocol is followed closely, the better the chance for remission.
 
Re: Is short-term insulin use possible/likely?--NEW INFO INC

:razz: Julie, that's funny that people think your husband is female, cause here in the midwest just about everyone assumes I am a guy. I've even had bank people give me a hard time about getting money from my own account (& esp when I was single/sole-support that can tick a person off!). Anyway, back to more important and relevant issues. Thanks for the info on how to post the picture. I will try that later today or tomorrow if I can make some time. I just finished reading the article and found it very interesting and helpful. I plan to print and take to vet. I'll also check out the insulin forum and see if many people are using the glargine. That article sure makes it sound like the way to go, but I know each cat, and each vet will have their own assessment and bias.
As to Chico's sugar's i have pasted below his readings so far: I have some healthcare background so have used 24hr time and some medical abbreviations, p=after. You will note if you study the times he seems atypical in that he has highest readings first thing in morning AFTER longest fasting period, vs. highest shortly after eating. This is the kind of data and observations I hope to gain by frequent testing. It may help with knowing what type of insulin is best suited for him and with deciding when to administer it. I know there is another better way for me to share this info with members, but I haven't dealt with the Google account and all that yet. I just keep his record in Excel and will take it to vet. We started out with some encouraging reading, but now unfortunately they are all coming in over 200. We do know he was diagnosed early so we should still have that going for us, and although he isn't on insulin yet, at least we got him on high protein, low carb diet right away. No we need to take next step. Thanks again, Daryl
Oophs--I just previewed this and it is not posting as user friendly to read as it looked in my window before posting, but maybe you can get the gist. His average BS is 252.
Date Time BS # of hours p eating comment (unless otherwise noted diet was wet Purina DM)
09/03/11
2359 234 > 2hrs
09/04/11
0829 129 >6hrs
1039 257 <1hr
1336 234 >2hrs 2:45 min p food
09/05/11
0738 334 >7hrs
1221 232 >4hrs
1639 165 >3hrs about 4 hrs p food
1804 194 1hr
09/06/11
0803 276 unsure a small amount of food was available, ? when eaten
1612 246 2hrs
09/07/11
0819 303 >8hrs
1307 223 >4hrs
1518 225 2hrs
2340 299 3 hrs
09/08/11
0756 301 >8hrs
1530 225 1hr 1 hr p wet food; 10:00AM void neg for keytones
09/09/11
0201 316 unsure after first time trying dry DM
0925 304 1hr 1 hr p dry food; void bet 2am & 8am
1826 236 5hr 5hr p wet food
09/10/11
0800
2000 270 ~8hrs no void as of 8pm
2200 292 2hrs
09/11/11
0800 252 ~8hrs after wet Fancy Feast Classic

AVERAGE 252
 
heehee - regarding the name - if the telemarketer people call and ask for daryl, sometimes i'll say "this is daryl" so i can say "put us on your do not call list." they always pause when i do that! :lol: it's a useful gender-neutral-ish name!

anyway, here's the link for how to make a spreadsheet. it's actually really easy and it's set up to be color-coded so you can see at a glance how the BG is. when you look at the Lantus support forum, don't be put off by all the weird lingo in people's posts. they actually scared me away for a couple of months with it! most of the talk about "green lagoons" or "stinkus pinkus" is referring to the color of the BG reading on the spreadsheet. it's a supportive group - there are around 30-50 people who post most days, but you certainly don't have to post more than you want to. it's just a way to get the mentoring you need to take care of your cat.

there's some uncertainty about what BG numbers begin to cause organ damage, and it's likely that different cats have different thresholds, but we do know that undiabetic cats run a BG of around 45-120ish.

if i were you, i'd try to get going on the insulin and get chico into some healthier numbers.
 
I would have killed for numbers that good in the beginning! Lots of us see 300-500's early on. PZI forum has a post at the top with recent remissions - that people fill when their sugar baby goes OTH - off the juice. I would guess the other forums do too. If not you could start a post asking for info like the PZI's asked for - I'm sure people will respond.
 
There was protein in the urine because of the diabetes - it is a known complication in humans, too. The vet should have known that.
 
cat_pet_icon Just wanted you all to see that I figured out how to add Chico's picture. I wanted to show-off how handsome he is! He continues to be a real trooper with the testing, doesn't mind it at all. Looking forward to seeing new vet tomorrow and getting him on some insulin, hopefully for just a short time. BJ, thanks for the info, I should have figured that out.
 
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