9/08 Ozy AMPS-401,+2-326,+3.5-263,PMPS-371
- Thread starter donaleen and Ozy
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nckitties3
Member Since 2013
Re: 9/08 AMPS-401
Hi and welcome! (need to put Ozy's name on here, took me a minute to figure out who you were :lol: )
#1 - Breathe!
I see you and Ozy have been thru a lot in a short period of time. Try to relax. I know it's difficult. I fought that battle for 7 months, uncontrollable numbers and finally switched my Lucian to Levemir. But he was MUCH higher than Ozy, throwing numbers of 600+ on a regular basis. The improvement has been amazing. Now when he bounces, I can actually get a reading instead of HI.
Give it some time and you'll have some more experienced members to work with you to help Ozy. No, we aren't as busy here. In an emergency, you can always post in TR or Health where it can get seen almost immediately. But then, after a while, nothing is an emergency, you'll have the experience to handle whatever is thrown at you. :thumbup
I will say, looking at Ozy's SS, you certainly are doing everything right! You test a ton, more than me and that's a lot! :lol: Although I don't test as much as I did when he was on Lantus. He was all over the place then! :shock: The vast majority of cats do great on Lantus, but a few don't and Lucian is one of them. If after several months of little improvement, you might consider a change in insulin. I gave it 7 full months, even had the Lev for a couple weeks before I broke down and tried it.
It would help the rest of us if you can give us a run down of his medical issues. It surprised me to see a cat on 4U, so I figured there are other factors weighing in. I did notice something about grain free food, so I'm guessing that's an issue.
OK, enough blather. Just want you to know you are welcome here and we'll do what we can to help. Weekends are the worst :lol: sometimes it's several hours before anyone drops in. During the week, it's a little busier.
Hi and welcome! (need to put Ozy's name on here, took me a minute to figure out who you were :lol: )
#1 - Breathe!
I see you and Ozy have been thru a lot in a short period of time. Try to relax. I know it's difficult. I fought that battle for 7 months, uncontrollable numbers and finally switched my Lucian to Levemir. But he was MUCH higher than Ozy, throwing numbers of 600+ on a regular basis. The improvement has been amazing. Now when he bounces, I can actually get a reading instead of HI.
Give it some time and you'll have some more experienced members to work with you to help Ozy. No, we aren't as busy here. In an emergency, you can always post in TR or Health where it can get seen almost immediately. But then, after a while, nothing is an emergency, you'll have the experience to handle whatever is thrown at you. :thumbup
I will say, looking at Ozy's SS, you certainly are doing everything right! You test a ton, more than me and that's a lot! :lol: Although I don't test as much as I did when he was on Lantus. He was all over the place then! :shock: The vast majority of cats do great on Lantus, but a few don't and Lucian is one of them. If after several months of little improvement, you might consider a change in insulin. I gave it 7 full months, even had the Lev for a couple weeks before I broke down and tried it.
It would help the rest of us if you can give us a run down of his medical issues. It surprised me to see a cat on 4U, so I figured there are other factors weighing in. I did notice something about grain free food, so I'm guessing that's an issue.
OK, enough blather. Just want you to know you are welcome here and we'll do what we can to help. Weekends are the worst :lol: sometimes it's several hours before anyone drops in. During the week, it's a little busier.
donaleen and Ozy
Member Since 2013
Re: 9/08 Ozy AMPS-401,+2-326
Thanks, Debbie. Here is his history.
Ozy came to live with us when he was about four; He is now about eight and a half. We got him at the humane society. I don’t think he was very loved in his old life. He wasn’t skittish but he was very very fierce. He bit us a lot, particularly me. He clearly preferred men. But I kept trying, even though I was bloody a lot. He only bit hands and arms and he would clamp on and drag his teeth across, leaving bloody tracks. I had scratches up and down my arms for months.
I don’t think he had ever been vaccinated before but of course the humane society vaccinated him quite thoroughly. Within a few weeks of living with us he began to limp and it was hard to figure what was wrong since no one could get close enough to really see. Finally, the vet sedated him, examined him closely, and biopsied his foot.
The biopy showed eosinophilic granuloma and it was on several feet. We were told it was probably a reaction to the rabies vaccine. His reaction was bad enough that they got a pass from the county on further rabies vaccines. They put him on prednisalone, which helped the condition but he didn’t tolerate it very well. He clearly felt like crap and was very grumpy. They were pretty insistent about continuing the prednisalone, insisting that cats tolerate prednisalone well. After a year on the prednisalone, he developed pancreatitis, which they said was due to the prednisalone. I stopped the prednisalone.
He still was very difficult to handle. Trips to the vet were a horrible experience for all of us. The vet wouldn’t/couldn’t treat him without sedation. Finally I decided to find someone who would come to the house. And that is what we did for three years. He continued to have a lot of auto-immune/allergy issues including frightening asthma. The vet who came to the house was more holistic in her approach. Mostly she just patted me on the head and said “there, there”. But she did treat him with various remedies, some of which helped, at least temporarily. He had recurring pancreatitis attacks that sometimes went on for days with vomiting and diarrhea.
He always got wet food and he used to get some dry food as well. Somewhere in the food experiments I tried grain free and he stopped having asthma attacks and his severe pancreatitis episodes pretty much stopped.
However, he started to have other symptoms that I now realize were diabetes (excessive thirst, ravenous hunger but often wouldn’t eat much, etc.) I kept a diary of his symptoms. Unfortunately the vet did not recognize it as diabetes and she did not do blood work. And despite many searches on the web, I never figured it for diabetes either. Finally in July I took him back to the old vet for a blood test. He was diabetic with a fasting glucose level of around 350. Looking back at his diary of symptoms, I think he had been diabetic for about nine months.
All the love has made him far easier to handle than he once was, though he can still be a bit difficult. He is far from regulated but he is doing better. I am still dealing with these challenges.
1) His nadir is inconsistent. A majority of the time his nadir seems to be at +4-5. But sometimes it is at pre shot and sometimes he dips twice. The time he went to 31 it was at AMPS.
2) Ozy loves food. He will overeat and he needs to lose about a pound. That makes leaving food out harder.
3) Ozy has pancreatitis and it affects his glucose when it kicks up.
4) Ozy had pretty bad asthma and I think he is allergic to grains because giving him grain free stopped the asthma completely. That makes carbs harder to play with because most brands use gluten.
5) Ozy bounces, I guess because his liver is freaked out by normal numbers.
Thanks, Debbie. Here is his history.
Ozy came to live with us when he was about four; He is now about eight and a half. We got him at the humane society. I don’t think he was very loved in his old life. He wasn’t skittish but he was very very fierce. He bit us a lot, particularly me. He clearly preferred men. But I kept trying, even though I was bloody a lot. He only bit hands and arms and he would clamp on and drag his teeth across, leaving bloody tracks. I had scratches up and down my arms for months.
I don’t think he had ever been vaccinated before but of course the humane society vaccinated him quite thoroughly. Within a few weeks of living with us he began to limp and it was hard to figure what was wrong since no one could get close enough to really see. Finally, the vet sedated him, examined him closely, and biopsied his foot.
The biopy showed eosinophilic granuloma and it was on several feet. We were told it was probably a reaction to the rabies vaccine. His reaction was bad enough that they got a pass from the county on further rabies vaccines. They put him on prednisalone, which helped the condition but he didn’t tolerate it very well. He clearly felt like crap and was very grumpy. They were pretty insistent about continuing the prednisalone, insisting that cats tolerate prednisalone well. After a year on the prednisalone, he developed pancreatitis, which they said was due to the prednisalone. I stopped the prednisalone.
He still was very difficult to handle. Trips to the vet were a horrible experience for all of us. The vet wouldn’t/couldn’t treat him without sedation. Finally I decided to find someone who would come to the house. And that is what we did for three years. He continued to have a lot of auto-immune/allergy issues including frightening asthma. The vet who came to the house was more holistic in her approach. Mostly she just patted me on the head and said “there, there”. But she did treat him with various remedies, some of which helped, at least temporarily. He had recurring pancreatitis attacks that sometimes went on for days with vomiting and diarrhea.
He always got wet food and he used to get some dry food as well. Somewhere in the food experiments I tried grain free and he stopped having asthma attacks and his severe pancreatitis episodes pretty much stopped.
However, he started to have other symptoms that I now realize were diabetes (excessive thirst, ravenous hunger but often wouldn’t eat much, etc.) I kept a diary of his symptoms. Unfortunately the vet did not recognize it as diabetes and she did not do blood work. And despite many searches on the web, I never figured it for diabetes either. Finally in July I took him back to the old vet for a blood test. He was diabetic with a fasting glucose level of around 350. Looking back at his diary of symptoms, I think he had been diabetic for about nine months.
All the love has made him far easier to handle than he once was, though he can still be a bit difficult. He is far from regulated but he is doing better. I am still dealing with these challenges.
1) His nadir is inconsistent. A majority of the time his nadir seems to be at +4-5. But sometimes it is at pre shot and sometimes he dips twice. The time he went to 31 it was at AMPS.
2) Ozy loves food. He will overeat and he needs to lose about a pound. That makes leaving food out harder.
3) Ozy has pancreatitis and it affects his glucose when it kicks up.
4) Ozy had pretty bad asthma and I think he is allergic to grains because giving him grain free stopped the asthma completely. That makes carbs harder to play with because most brands use gluten.
5) Ozy bounces, I guess because his liver is freaked out by normal numbers.
Dale 'n' Chip
Member Since 2012
Re: 9/08 Ozy AMPS-401,+2-326
Just looked at your SS and it looks like you are doing well. In fact great! Pretty much right on schedule from what I see. I agree with Debbie, just breathe and stick it out for a little longer.
If you want to try something like (semi) Start Low Go Slow, that should be OK, but it looks like you are so close to a breakthrough I wouldn't make any big changes that may derail the progress.
It might be worth having Jill & Alex take a look at this before you do anything drastic. Jill is about the most experienced person here (still posting occasionally) and she has a keen eye for the right strategy for many difficult cases. She's not around everyday but it might be worth having her take a look to see if SLGS might be an appropriate option.
I started in TR, then had a big meltdown and went looking elsewhere for answers. Nobody elsewhere could help and after making every mistake in the book, I eventually was able to teach myself Tilly TR from exile.
You certainly should be able to do it on your own, but you will likely want to stick to established protocol and adapt from there.
Welcome Donaleen and Ozy.donaleen and Ozy said:
Just looked at your SS and it looks like you are doing well. In fact great! Pretty much right on schedule from what I see. I agree with Debbie, just breathe and stick it out for a little longer.
If you want to try something like (semi) Start Low Go Slow, that should be OK, but it looks like you are so close to a breakthrough I wouldn't make any big changes that may derail the progress.
It might be worth having Jill & Alex take a look at this before you do anything drastic. Jill is about the most experienced person here (still posting occasionally) and she has a keen eye for the right strategy for many difficult cases. She's not around everyday but it might be worth having her take a look to see if SLGS might be an appropriate option.
I started in TR, then had a big meltdown and went looking elsewhere for answers. Nobody elsewhere could help and after making every mistake in the book, I eventually was able to teach myself Tilly TR from exile.
You certainly should be able to do it on your own, but you will likely want to stick to established protocol and adapt from there.
nckitties3
Member Since 2013
Re: 9/08 Ozy AMPS-401,+2-326
Poor baby! and you, too! You certainly have your hands full. Smart girl, you are, to figure out what he was allergic to. Good job!
You'd be amazed how many cats develop FD after being given steroids, i.e. prednisone, etc. With everything that's going on with Ozy, it's no wonder his bg's are so high.
I've heard, about all you can do is treat and heal the contributing factors first, then work on the FD. Trying to get them down into non-diabetic numbers may be impossible when there are other things causing them to be high. Sometimes you just have to compensate with larger insulin doses than the norm.
Because I've had such a hard time with Lucian, who has NO other medical issues BTW, I'm happy as long as he stays below renal threshold the majority of the time, which he does now. Yeah, he still spikes into the 300"s every few days and has hit 400 a couple times, but it's NOTHING like it was before. Back then, I was happy to see 300! Now he's usually in the 'yellows' and 'blues' with an occasional 'green'. I'm good with that. I'd rather he never hit 300, but it's gonna happen until he's controlled. Being regulated can take a long time. As it's said, It's a marathon, not a sprint. It seems now that his bounces are farther apart and not near as high. I guess that comes with time, but it sure makes me happy. In time, hopefully you'll see improvement. Some cats are DX'd and OTJ in 2 weeks, some take months or years and some never do. To me it doesn't matter as long as they're healthy and happy, in safe numbers :thumbup
And I agree, Jill is very knowledgeable.
Poor baby! and you, too! You certainly have your hands full. Smart girl, you are, to figure out what he was allergic to. Good job!
You'd be amazed how many cats develop FD after being given steroids, i.e. prednisone, etc. With everything that's going on with Ozy, it's no wonder his bg's are so high.
I've heard, about all you can do is treat and heal the contributing factors first, then work on the FD. Trying to get them down into non-diabetic numbers may be impossible when there are other things causing them to be high. Sometimes you just have to compensate with larger insulin doses than the norm.
Because I've had such a hard time with Lucian, who has NO other medical issues BTW, I'm happy as long as he stays below renal threshold the majority of the time, which he does now. Yeah, he still spikes into the 300"s every few days and has hit 400 a couple times, but it's NOTHING like it was before. Back then, I was happy to see 300!
Now he's usually in the 'yellows' and 'blues' with an occasional 'green'. I'm good with that. I'd rather he never hit 300, but it's gonna happen until he's controlled. Being regulated can take a long time. As it's said, It's a marathon, not a sprint. It seems now that his bounces are farther apart and not near as high. I guess that comes with time, but it sure makes me happy. In time, hopefully you'll see improvement. Some cats are DX'd and OTJ in 2 weeks, some take months or years and some never do. To me it doesn't matter as long as they're healthy and happy, in safe numbers :thumbupAnd I agree, Jill is very knowledgeable.
donaleen and Ozy
Member Since 2013
Re: 9/08 Ozy AMPS-401,+2-326,+3.5-263
Thanks Debbie and Chip'n Dale. I did send a message to Jill and Alex. Thanks for the suggestion.
So far really all I have changed is 1)give him a token dose last night and 2)decrease his dose to 3.75....and enact my new testing/feeding schedule. I am testing a little less often and I am feeding him a little less and more consistently.
Until recently weight wasn't an issue but he has started gaining weight with the free feeding way. So I need to take care of that before it gets out of hand.
Thanks Debbie and Chip'n Dale. I did send a message to Jill and Alex. Thanks for the suggestion.
So far really all I have changed is 1)give him a token dose last night and 2)decrease his dose to 3.75....and enact my new testing/feeding schedule. I am testing a little less often and I am feeding him a little less and more consistently.
Until recently weight wasn't an issue but he has started gaining weight with the free feeding way. So I need to take care of that before it gets out of hand.
Dale 'n' Chip
Member Since 2012
Re: 9/08 Ozy AMPS-401,+2-326,+3.5-263
Hopefully Jill will be around to take a peek within a day or two. Or three.
Libby and Lucy is also a master at adapting SLGS to Lantus.
I have to suspect you should be able to figure something out here that will be best for Ozy and still compatible with your sanity. :smile:
Hopefully Jill will be around to take a peek within a day or two. Or three.
Libby and Lucy is also a master at adapting SLGS to Lantus.
I have to suspect you should be able to figure something out here that will be best for Ozy and still compatible with your sanity. :smile:
donaleen and Ozy
Member Since 2013
Re: 9/08 Ozy AMPS-401,+2-326,+3.5-263
The message seems to have disappeared. It was in my Outbox and now it isn't but it isn't marked as sent either.
The message seems to have disappeared. It was in my Outbox and now it isn't but it isn't marked as sent either.
Dale 'n' Chip
Member Since 2012
Re: 9/08 Ozy AMPS-401,+2-326,+3.5-263
There is also a problem with email notifications, so she won't know about it until she logs into the forum.
You might try the PM again.
And I'll see if I can reach her as well.
There is also a problem with email notifications, so she won't know about it until she logs into the forum.
You might try the PM again.
And I'll see if I can reach her as well.
Dale 'n' Chip
Member Since 2012
I sent a PM to Jill and it seemed to go through OK. Hopefully we'll hear back if she's around.
I just noticed this:
I suspect those may be too high for what you are trying to do. More realistic may be something like "nadir above 75, no shoot below 100" but maybe another good question for Jill. I think you already have enough data to shoot below 150. Otherwise you'll be skipping too many shots and may end up losing more ground (and sanity) than you gain.
Chip's nadir at the very beginning was below 50 earns a reduction. His "no shoot below" number was 75. I pretty quickly discovered I didn't want to skip any shots since it was so disruptive for him. I think I lowered that "no shoot below" number after talking to Jill. Actually I believe it was when I noticed with Alex, Jill was shooting anything over 50 with such great results. So I started shooting 50 and over without much hesitation.
You just have to work up to it (or down to it) as you get more comfortable and data ready. When you "shoot low to stay low" it's actually easier since there's less bouncing and diving with flatter numbers.
I just noticed this:
I suspect those may be too high for what you are trying to do. More realistic may be something like "nadir above 75, no shoot below 100" but maybe another good question for Jill. I think you already have enough data to shoot below 150. Otherwise you'll be skipping too many shots and may end up losing more ground (and sanity) than you gain.
Chip's nadir at the very beginning was below 50 earns a reduction. His "no shoot below" number was 75. I pretty quickly discovered I didn't want to skip any shots since it was so disruptive for him. I think I lowered that "no shoot below" number after talking to Jill. Actually I believe it was when I noticed with Alex, Jill was shooting anything over 50 with such great results. So I started shooting 50 and over without much hesitation.
You just have to work up to it (or down to it) as you get more comfortable and data ready. When you "shoot low to stay low" it's actually easier since there's less bouncing and diving with flatter numbers.
Dale 'n' Chip
Member Since 2012
donaleen and Ozy
Member Since 2013
Thanks, Dale, for taking the time and making the effort to help me. I shot at 122 today! And Ozy has been surfing in the blues ever since, now down teetering on the edge of blue and green but still blue at 103. It isn't as scary when it is daytime and I have had some sleep.
donaleen
donaleen
nckitties3
Member Since 2013
Good job girl!! :thumbup I sure remember those! Feeding MC when he got to 70! :lol: I've shot as low as 74 I think, only because he's never been lower at shot time.
A tsp of medium carb food every 30 mins, with a test, when Lucian is below 50 and he surfs right thru it until he comes up on his own. I was amazed how much control you actually have over the lows. You just have to stay on it. I won't even give anything other than his regular low carb unless he's below 50. If he hits 40, I go with HC, I gets a little antsy after 40. :lol: But only very tiny amounts, 1 tsp at a time and he usually only needs it once, twice at most. Before I ever needed to control his drop with food, I watched other newbees make the mistake of feeding half a can of food and then when they really needed the cat to eat more, 30 mins later, they couldn't. Depending on how fast he's dropping and where in his cycle he is, I may give 2 tsps the first time and 1 tsp each time after. You always want them to have room for more, if needed.
Oh and I've had my share of all nighters! Lot's of coffee!
Try to update us daily if you have time. It's always nice to see how Ozy's doing. cat_pet_icon
A tsp of medium carb food every 30 mins, with a test, when Lucian is below 50 and he surfs right thru it until he comes up on his own. I was amazed how much control you actually have over the lows. You just have to stay on it. I won't even give anything other than his regular low carb unless he's below 50. If he hits 40, I go with HC, I gets a little antsy after 40. :lol: But only very tiny amounts, 1 tsp at a time and he usually only needs it once, twice at most. Before I ever needed to control his drop with food, I watched other newbees make the mistake of feeding half a can of food and then when they really needed the cat to eat more, 30 mins later, they couldn't. Depending on how fast he's dropping and where in his cycle he is, I may give 2 tsps the first time and 1 tsp each time after. You always want them to have room for more, if needed.
Oh and I've had my share of all nighters!
Lot's of coffee!Try to update us daily if you have time. It's always nice to see how Ozy's doing. cat_pet_icon
donaleen and Ozy
Member Since 2013
How kind of you to take the time to write. He is at 110 at +11 so it is good to have your reminder of how how to handle it. He got down to 31/34 (I tested twice and those were the numbers)....boy did we panic and then gave him too much HC stuff, including karo syrup.
Tonight I will be snoozing on the sofa. I get up easier that way.
donaleen
Tonight I will be snoozing on the sofa. I get up easier that way.
donaleen
nckitties3
Member Since 2013
Oh yeah, it's easy to give too much when you're freaking out, been there, done that!
After a few times, you're much more relaxed and know what you need to do and how much. I've had nights that I was too tired to stay up and I set my clock every hour over the course of the night to get up and test. Depending on the numbers, sometimes you need to test every 20-30 minutes, sometimes you're good on the hour.
It all comes with experience. You do enough of anything you get used to it. :lol:
Because my Lucian didn't respond well to Lantus, we were on a roller coaster for 7 months until I switched him to Levemir. I pulled all nighters at least 2-3 times a week. But the first few times, scared the bejeezus outa me! The lowest he's been, I think, was 32, that I'm aware of and I used to test much more than I do now, because he was so unpredictable. I actually get to sleep now! YAY!! :lol:
After a few times, you're much more relaxed and know what you need to do and how much. I've had nights that I was too tired to stay up and I set my clock every hour over the course of the night to get up and test. Depending on the numbers, sometimes you need to test every 20-30 minutes, sometimes you're good on the hour.
It all comes with experience. You do enough of anything you get used to it. :lol:
Because my Lucian didn't respond well to Lantus, we were on a roller coaster for 7 months until I switched him to Levemir. I pulled all nighters at least 2-3 times a week. But the first few times, scared the bejeezus outa me!
The lowest he's been, I think, was 32, that I'm aware of and I used to test much more than I do now, because he was so unpredictable. I actually get to sleep now! YAY!! :lol:
Dale 'n' Chip
Member Since 2012
I see a 58 and a couple of 60's. ;-)nckitties3 said:...I've shot as low as 74 I think, only because he's never been lower at shot time.
Looks like you shot the full dose. I figured you were shooting everything over 50 like I do.
Donaleen will be shooting below 100 before long.
nckitties3
Member Since 2013
Shows you how my memory is. :lol:
I did find out, early on, that shooting a partial dose was a disaster for Lucian. It would take him days/weeks to calm back down. A half dose for him was the same as no dose. I'm so glad he is much more 'level' now. :thumbup
I did find out, early on, that shooting a partial dose was a disaster for Lucian. It would take him days/weeks to calm back down. A half dose for him was the same as no dose.
I'm so glad he is much more 'level' now. :thumbup- Status