8/20 GARLAND AMPS 297 +10 485?? // threw up // PMPS 349

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Violet and Garland

Member Since 2011
Garland beat the DKA and is now recovering from FHL. Week 2 with the feeding tube

Garland seems to perking up just a smidge. Still just lays there, but I noticed her looking around this morning. Seems she threw up again last night :( Not sure what time. I fed her at 2am and then again at 6:30am so it had to be in-between those two feedings. This is the 2nd night in a row Ive woken up to throw up.I wonder why shes doing it overnight, but not during the day?

How much extra water should I be giving her?

Yesterday
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=50318
 
Re: 8/20 GARLAND AMPS 297

Hi Violet & Garland,
Good news that Garland is looking a bit better. Sorry about the throwing up. I don't know what to tell you about the amount of water; you will have to wait for someone with experience. But I just wanted to check in with some healing vines and positive thoughts for Garland's recovery. Feel better and better as the day goes on, Garland!

Ella & Rusty (who is out picking a beautiful bouquet of healing vines)
 
Re: 8/20 GARLAND AMPS 297

The throwup could be fur. You could always add an extra tsp or 2 of water to her meals. You'll notice after time that she'll perk up a bit more as time goes on and her #s go down. In the beginning, some cats are very lethargic, and won't move around much. My Blackie was the same way. It was heartbreaking to see, but she's doing better. There are times now when she gets contraband from someone else that she'll lay around a bit lethargic because of the carbs in the food. You get to learn your cat, and what she'll do. If that makes sense.

Otherwise, that's a good # to start the day off. She'll come down. I think the protocol is to increase the insulin by 0.25 units instead of 1u. However, someone with more experience will help you along with this. :) Good luck, and I look forward to your posts. :)
 
Re: 8/20 GARLAND AMPS 297

Violet --

When are you giving Garland her dose of Pepsid? It may be that you want to consider giving the Pepsid in the evening. It seems like she has a tendency to throw up at night. If you're not feeding overnight, she may have a bit of acid stomach. Giving her the dose of Pepsid later rather than early may help to calm her tummy down. Also, you can give 1/4 tablet of Pepsid twice a day -- although I'd suggest asking your vet if that's OK.

I have a Mac, its got Excel on it. When I clicked on the link it asked if I wanted to Save it, I clicked "okay" and then nothing after that?
Hmmm.... I'm using a Mac, as well. Did you check in your "Downloads" folder?

Whoops... I didn't read past your initial note. I'm glad you got the file to open. What I would suggest, is to give it a try for a couple of days. Your note this morning sounds optimistic. It may be that you can try the every 3 hr. feeding for a couple of days. If Garland keeps making progress, spread out one of the overnight feedings so you can eliminate one. Not to belabor a point but this can't be all that different than when one of your kids is sick and your "mom's radar" is on full alert. The only difference is that kids cry. Cats hide their discomfort or illness. Hopefully, Karrie's suggestion about warming the food will make it easier and the entire process will go faster. Also, if you're feeding more often, you will be feeding less each time so that will speed things up, as well.
 
Re: 8/20 GARLAND AMPS 297

violet, that's a really good start to the day for garland following the DKA. now that you're increasing her dose, hopefully she's going to be getting enough insulin and will improve. i'm so glad you're starting to see her respond to the lantus, even just a smidge! she'll come down - hang in there, you're doing a great job.
 
Re: 8/20 GARLAND AMPS 297

Sienne and Gabby said:
Violet --

When are you giving Garland her dose of Pepsid? It may be that you want to consider giving the Pepsid in the evening. It seems like she has a tendency to throw up at night. If you're not feeding overnight, she may have a bit of acid stomach. Giving her the dose of Pepsid later rather than early may help to calm her tummy down. Also, you can give 1/4 tablet of Pepsid twice a day -- although I'd suggest asking your vet if that's OK.

I have a Mac, its got Excel on it. When I clicked on the link it asked if I wanted to Save it, I clicked "okay" and then nothing after that?
Hmmm.... I'm using a Mac, as well. Did you check in your "Downloads" folder?

Whoops... I didn't read past your initial note. I'm glad you got the file to open. What I would suggest, is to give it a try for a couple of days. Your note this morning sounds optimistic. It may be that you can try the every 3 hr. feeding for a couple of days. If Garland keeps making progress, spread out one of the overnight feedings so you can eliminate one. Not to belabor a point but this can't be all that different than when one of your kids is sick and your "mom's radar" is on full alert. The only difference is that kids cry. Cats hide their discomfort or illness. Hopefully, Karrie's suggestion about warming the food will make it easier and the entire process will go faster. Also, if you're feeding more often, you will be feeding less each time so that will speed things up, as well.

Ive been giving it to her in the morning. Should just switch it to night, or start giving 2 doses?

She only went 4 hours from the end of one feed to the start of another overnight last night. Is that enough time for stomach acid to accumulate and cause the throw up? Im gonna do the 3 hours tonight, I just slept through one of my alarms last night for a bit until I heard it ... How many CC's should I be doing? Ive been doing 30 so far
 
Re: 8/20 GARLAND AMPS 297 +3 352

My big feeding syringe broke this morning. I had to use the little 5 ml ones for her feeds so far today. Where can you get another one of those big ones? I already checked walmart...
 
Re: 8/20 GARLAND AMPS 297 +3 352

I would try feeding her less the meal that she would normally throw up. Instead of feeding her 30cc's feed her 20 for that meal.

You could give her pepcid twice a day.

How much at one time including flushes is she getting and how much does she weigh?
 
Re: 8/20 GARLAND AMPS 297 +3 352

She gets 30cc of food and 6 ml of water flush per feeding. Then she gets an additional 3ml of water with her morning feed for her meds

She weighs 10 pounds
 
Re: 8/20 GARLAND AMPS 297 +3 352

Just checking in to see how Garland is today and I'm so happy she has perked up a bit. I agree with Sienne and Karrie on the pepcid.

I wish I knew where you could get the syringes. I have ordered mine on line in the past so I am utterly no help for you. BUT....sending hugs and healing vines. You are doing so wonderful!!!
 
Re: 8/20 GARLAND AMPS 297 +3 352

i wonder if your vet could give you a feeding syringe? or if your vet is closed at this point, maybe you could stop at an emergency vet clinic and get one.
 
Re: 8/20 GARLAND AMPS 297 +3 352 +6 332

Im actually liking the little syringe (for now) Its much easier to push now that Im not battling 2 feet of tubing. LOL I just keep the food bowl next to me and refill
 
Re: 8/20 GARLAND AMPS 297 +3 352 +6 332

there ya go! found the bright side of it. she's got some wonky numbers going today, doesn't she!? that'll settle down.
 
Re: 8/20 GARLAND AMPS 297 +3 352 +6 332

I would get a handful from the vet. The syringes will start sticking and you won't be able to use them for feeding after at the most aweek. And order some "no ring" syringes from pippens roost. These won't stick and you can use them the entire time you have the tube and to orally syringe feed in the future if you ever have to supplement her food intake.

You could try and see if she can take 35cc and 40 cc of food in the day time. Most cats can handle this. Some cats can handle a lot more but I don't recommend it. Maverick was able to take 55ccs of food and water but he was a big cat before he got sick 17.5lbs and we worked up to that amount.
 
Re: 8/20 GARLAND AMPS 297 +3 352 +6 332

Ahhhhhh :sad: Garland just threw up. About 15 minutes after I got done feeding her. I was getting her stuff out to do a +10 BS on her and while I was prepping it, she started gagging and threw up all the food I had just given her... So thats 2x in 24 hours now. Should I start getting worried? Do you think its because Ive upped her food intake? I gave her 36CC instead of the usual 30/32, but since its also now every 3 hours instead of 4, does that have an effect too?
 
Re: 8/20 GARLAND AMPS 297 +3 352 +6 332 +10 485 & threw up

You really have to get anti nausea meds. How long ago was her metoclopromide - it doesn't work for nausea but can help with vomiting.
 
Re: 8/20 GARLAND AMPS 297 +3 352 +6 332 +10 485 & threw up

Ill call right now. Can you spell it for me one more time to make sure I have it right? -->> Ondansetron or Dolasetron?? Either one of these?

I was going to give her the night dose of pepcid at her next feeding (830) but maybe I should have done it this time?
 
Re: 8/20 GARLAND AMPS 297 +3 352 +6 332 +10 485 & threw up

They want to give me a Rx for cerenia? Said those other two are injectables and they dont prescribe it out?
 
Re: 8/20 GARLAND AMPS 297 +3 352 +6 332 +10 485 & threw up

Cerenia is actually good for vomiting but not for overall nausea for FHL.

Can you find out if you could give cerenia at home as you have experience with insulin injections?

Also I would say to them that you've been doing reading (please read up on the nausea file I gave instructions on accessing and give the technical article I linked to a once over also) and say that you've read that cerenia is good for vomiting so you'd like to try this but you've read that FHL is very nauseating and that more and more vets are prescribing ondansetron for this and you'd really like to give it a try. That she's doing a lot of lip licking and teeth grinding also. Please try and be assertive on this and do your best to get a prescription.
 
Re: 8/20 GARLAND AMPS 297 +3 352 +6 332 +10 485 & threw up

I spelled it out for them(she put me on hold to talk to the DR), but then came back and she said its an injectable and they dont even carry it? i thought it was a pill? She said the cerenia is what they give all their cats who are vomiting and they have a high success rate. Should I press it further?

EDIT- Just saw your edit LOL

I read all of the links you gave me already. But he seemed to not want to give it to me. (i feel like im annoying them) Should i just keep begging?
 
Re: 8/20 GARLAND AMPS 297 +3 352 +6 332 +10 485 & threw up

Dolasetron is an injectible but ondasetron (brand name zofran) is available at human pharmacies. It is in their plumbs guide.

How about go for the cerenia now - it will most likely stop the vomiting and we can press for ondansetron after if you prefer. Or if you have to go in to get the cerenia print out the technical article and say that you'd really like to give the ondansetron a try. I understand about feeling like a high needs patient. I find vets extremely intimidating. I had to come on and get a peptalk before each and every vet visit. You are the patient and are paying them. So ask them to refer to the plumbs guide or look into it and get back to you. I know you are only dealing with an emergency hospital as you don't have a regular vet which makes it even more intimidating.

http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.com/avhc/content/printContentPopup.jsp?id=676860

Ondansetron (Zofran, Glaxo Pharmaceuticals) is a potent antiemetic drug that has proven to be very effective in both humans and animals for control of severe vomiting. It has been used in human cancer patients undergoing cisplatin therapy, a drug that frequently causes nausea and severe vomiting, with dramatic results. Ondansetron acts as a selective antagonist of serotonin S3 receptors (a principal mediator of the emetic reflex). S3 receptors are found primarily in the CTZ, on vagal nerve terminals, and in the gut in enteric neurons. The principal site of action of ondansetron is in the area postrema, but it also has some peripheral gastric prokinetic activity.

In my experience, ondansetron has produced dramatic results in either controlling or at least significantly decreasing the frequency of vomiting in dogs and cats with frequent or severe vomiting, including in dogs with severe parvovirus enteritis, in pancreatitis patients, and cats with hepatic lipidosis. The recommended dose is 0.25 to 0.5 mg/lb IV given as a slow push every 6 to 12 hours (based on patient response). Frequently dogs that appear quite distressed due to nausea and vomiting look much more relaxed and comfortable within 15 minutes of receiving ondansetron. There are no reports of any significant side effects such as diarrhea, sedation, or extrapyramidal signs in human and animal trials. While Zofran was quite expensive for many years, it came off patent in 2007 and is now affordable for use at any small animal hospital. Its use should be considered in any patient with intractable vomiting (maropitant and dolasetron are the other top choices for this situation). Animals with significant liver disease are best managed with ondansetron or dolasetron, as maropitant must be used with caution in animals with significant hepatic dysfunction.

It is best to treat animals with frequent severe vomiting aggressively in order to significantly decrease the frequency of vomiting and to enhance patient comfort. Oftentimes early use of more aggressive therapy in controlling severe vomiting, in conjunction with other therapy, will hasten an earlier positive response and a shorter hospital stay, with a lower hospital bill than if the patient is allowed to linger too long while it receives less than effective therapy.
 
Re: 8/20 GARLAND AMPS 297 +3 352 +6 332 +10 485 & threw up

Violet:

At least on-line, Petco carries feeding syringes. You could call and see if they stock them in the store.
 
Re: 8/20 GARLAND AMPS 297 +3 352 +6 332 +10 485 & threw up

Sienne and Gabby said:
Violet:

At least on-line, Petco carries feeding syringes. You could call and see if they stock them in the store.
Thanks Sienne!!!
 
Re: 8/20 GARLAND AMPS 297 +3 352 +6 332 +10 485 & threw up

Karrie and Maverick said:
Dolasetron is an injectible but ondasetron (brand name zofran) is available at human pharmacies. It is in their plumbs guide.

How about go for the cerenia now - it will most likely stop the vomiting and we can press for ondansetron after if you prefer. Or if you have to go in to get the cerenia print out the technical article and say that you'd really like to give the ondansetron a try. I understand about feeling like a high needs patient. I find vets extremely intimidating. I had to come on and get a peptalk before each and every vet visit. You are the patient and are paying them. So ask them to refer to the plumbs guide or look into it and get back to you. I know you are only dealing with an emergency hospital as you don't have a regular vet which makes it even more intimidating.

So intimidating!! nailbite_smile I may need some vet pep talks too! LOL
 
So her +10 was 485 and 2 hours later her PMPS was 349???? How is that even possible? That 489 seems really random. I opened a new pen for the PM shot too

She threw up at 6:15 What time can I feed her again? And what about her meds? THey told me to not give her anything at least 3 hours after she throws up. But I fed her at 530 and was planning on feeding her again at 830 (and give meds) but now idk? My feeding times are messed up today bc of some earlier errands.
 
violet826 said:
So her +10 was 485 and 2 hours later her PMPS was 349???? How is that even possible? That 489 seems really random.
How far ahead of the +10 was she fed? In t he future if you get a number that seems weirdly high or weirdly low, grab another test real quick and see if the result is the same.

Hopefully someone will be along to answer you other questions (feeding times and meds times)
 
Is she drinking water on her own at all? I think it would be okay to give her a feeding at 8:45 - go really slow for that one. when did she last get metoclopromide?
 
Karrie and Maverick said:
Is she drinking water on her own at all? I think it would be okay to give her a feeding at 8:45 - go really slow for that one. when did she last get metoclopromide?
Shes not taking anything by mouth at all. Im about to give her the night dose of meto and the vet told me I could also start giving a night dose of the pepcid with it
 
Karrie and Maverick said:
Give the metoclopromide 20 minutes before her next feeding for it to be most effective. Not sure what time you are on.
Im central. Its 835 right now. I was going to give her the meds, and then feed her in 20 minutes... close to 9. is that okay?
 
Good point. I'm totally tunnel visioned about the feeding tube and feedings, I'm not thinking about dosing schedule for insulin. ohmygod_smile
 
Karrie and Maverick said:
Good point. I'm totally tunnel visioned about the feeding tube and feedings, I'm not thinking about dosing schedule for insulin. ohmygod_smile
huh? LOL Now youve lost me :) confused_cat
 
When I was giving you advice on when to do the last feeding I didn't pay attention to when you shoot insulin and how that would affect any BG readings, or the impact of vomiting on blood glucose. I'm not a dosing advisor for the diabetes side and I haven't had a diabetic cat since April so its not something I think of when advising on tube feeding ohmygod_smile
 
Violet: one other thing about cerenia is you can't give it continuously....you can only give it for a few days and then she has to come off of it. The zofran is a much better choice. Lots of people in the renal group give it to their cats for nausea.

I'm so proud of Karrie....she's really done well in her assertiveness training with vets. You can, too, Violet. Hang in there...you are doing superb.
 
i just read through today's posts - and karrie & violet - you guys are awesome. this is hard. and you're doing great.

violet, some times you'll get an individual weird number. could be a bad strip or who knows what - what you're looking at is an overall trend of the cycle. that's why sandy's saying grab another test if you get a weird one.
 
Hi guys - I can't advise on any of this - way out of my league... but I did want to wish you much luck - and I hope Garland is doing better. Karrie is worth her weight in gold. Well done guys!
 
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