8/11 Savannah pmps 305

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dd & savannah

dd & savannah

Member Since 2010
Should I moved her dose up to a skinny 1 u? Or hold for one more day?
Thx,
D

Hey all,

I talked to my vet again this morning. I told her how about 6 days ago Savannah was at 54 @ + 5. I told her I gave her dry food that night and she's been in the 300's except for 8/9 when her nadir was 128 @ +12. She really keeps pushing me to give her the dry Purina d/m but it has 13 carbs and Wellness canned has 4. She thinks that it will sustain her better in case she drops low like she did on 8/6. She also thinks that maybe I should give her a full unit (or maybe more) when she is in the 200-300's and less than a unit when in the 100's.

I don't know how I feel about this. Any thoughts??
dd

Morning.

Yesterday

Still pink, but a little lower from yesterday...
Have a good morning all!
 
Re: 8/11 Savannah amps 354, vet wants her to eat dry d/m

Hey all,

I talked to my vet again this morning. I told her how about 6 days ago Savannah was at 54 @ + 5. I told her I gave her dry food that night and she's been in the 300's except for 8/9 when her nadir was 128 @ +12. She really keeps pushing me to give her the dry Purina d/m but it has 13 carbs and Wellness canned has 4. She thinks that it will sustain her better in case she drops low like she did on 8/6. She also thinks that maybe I should give her a full unit (or maybe more) when she is in the 200-300's and less than a unit when in the 100's.

I don't know how I feel about this. Any thoughts??
dd
 
Re: 8/11 Savannah amps 354, vet wants her to eat dry d/m

Well, dry is something that I would not go back to myself. I use the HC to raise Shadow when needed and it doesn't sty in his system as long as dry would. What are your thoughts about this? Raja loved her dry and once Itook it away, I never wanted to get her back in that habit...
All that I hear are words about consistency from the dosing experts here. I have heard that some vets have suggested different dose depending on the numbers and yet I think the Protocol says otherwise. I hope one of the more experienced people will weigh in here...
I have gone off on my own with the suggestions from the board...so my vet doesn't give me dosing advice. Not sure how you feel about that...
This is the start of your 7th day on .75u?
 
Re: 8/11 Savannah amps 354, vet wants her to eat dry d/m

I truly believe that what got Jezebel OTJ so quickly was the elimination of the dry food. It was initially a struggle, but she has adjusted wonderfully and still doing great. When needed, I used HC wet to bump her above 50...

Good luck,
Debie & Jezebel
 
Re: 8/11 Savannah amps 354, vet wants her to eat dry d/m

I'm no expert, but I've learned a lot here on FDMB and I personally think your vet is misinformed if she wants you to feed dry food or vary her dose. One of the first things my vet told me is that cats can go into remission but I'd need to switch to a canned food, low carb diet. I read about people here having trouble regulating their kitties when there is any dry food in the mix. I've already decided that no cat of mine will ever be fed dry food again... there are just too many reasons not to feed it - including the fact that cats are desert animals who normally get most of their moisture requirements from food (and they don't naturally drink very much water, although my Kasha has always been a big drinker). Chronic dehydration from dry food, etc. seems to increase risk of kidney issues as well. Increased bacteria in dry food - no thanks. Just from reading a lot of condos, I would be shocked if dry food was helpful in any way.

I've also had it drilled into my head that Lantus is an insulin that likes consistency. I think some other insulins are different (I only have experience with Lantus) but I wouldn't vary the dose because that can mess up the shed (depot). Even if you reduce a dose because your kitty has a low number, you will still get some shed action, and so won't really be getting exactly the reduced dose you might expect. I don't understand how varying the dose would ever give you consistency in her numbers.

If anyone disagrees with anything I've said, please feel free to correct me. Like I said - I'm not an expert. I've just learned a lot here. I don't ask my vet for dose advice - but when we are in for visits, I do keep her updated on what we're doing. She loved my spreadsheet - I think she said she'd never seen so much data accumulated like that. She's been very supportive of what we're doing and seems to feel better that we're monitoring at home. And 54 isn't so terribly low - if you read some of the condos, there are cats who are OTJ that get some readings in the 50s (and even lower) even without insulin!

So - maybe you can do some more research on your own and see what you think would be best for your kitty. It might help to read the info at this link:

Feeding Your Cat: Know The Basics of Feline Nutrition
 
Re: 8/11 Savannah amps 354, vet wants her to eat dry d/m

no real advice here .. mocha does eat wet cat food, she eat's wal mart brand special kitty and she loves it. I use that also for the MC food when we need it. She get's her HC gravy from fancy feast, just because she loves that stuff!

I will admit that while I believe wet cat food is the best for cats, our civvie twix does eat dry cat food. I know, it is frowned upon on this site, but we tried several varieties of wet cat food and they all resulted in rodent ulcers on her lips which resulted in going to the vets and to take care of them meant doing steroid shots which of course, we all know can lead to diabetes in cats. BUT, we did just gradually switch twix over to Evo turkey and chicken and it is only at 7% carbs and she has loved it. The price difference from her other kibble is nearly double in price, for a lesser amount, but hey, it isn't like me and peter need to eat :lol:
 
Re: 8/11 Savannah amps 354, vet wants her to eat dry d/m

Nature's Variety also makes a very low carb dry, but dry will never be ideal. Rodent ulcers? I've never heard of those - yikes!

Still, if you can feed canned or raw, I would think that's going to be better for your cat.
 
Re: 8/11 Savannah amps 354, vet wants her to eat dry d/m

We had never heard of rodent ulcers either, but they develop on her lips, sometimes dead center and sometimes up on the inside. On the inside of her lip it looks like a human canker sore, on the outside of her lip it balloons up and draws her skin real tight. Now because it happened so many times she actually has a pouch of loose skin on her lip.
 
Re: 8/11 Savannah amps 354, vet wants her to eat dry d/m

I agree with everyone here. To me, giving her the dry food would be like going backwards. She loves dry food but ever since we switched her to wet food her coat is beautiful and she NEVER drinks water. The vet said that she could be a transient diabetic and that many cats that have switched to this (dry d/) diet have become transient. Unfortunately Savannah has been diabetic for 4 years, I just don't think it will happen at this point. I also don't think giving her something with higher carbs will help her get OTJ, if anything I should be more cautious about her food intake. I've also read about how Lantus likes consistency and I think it would probably mess with her shed if I switched dosages, however, maybe if I do that (1 u in am, .5 at night) on a consistent basis it may work but I'm not so sure. I still don;t even have enough data to support that. Right now I don't even feel like I have her even close to good numbers, if anything she is going to need a boost soon. She has been on .75 for 7 days now.
I have seen three vets and all of them have not been able to help regulate her, and seem to know very little about the matter. I do wish we could find one that was a little more helpful.
Good thing this board is here!!!
Thanks all for weighing in!
 
Re: 8/11 Savannah amps 354, vet wants her to eat dry d/m

I believe standard protocol for Human treatment of diabetes and some PZI protocols run differently than the Queensland Protocol that most people on Lantus use here. From what I understand from talking to my friend who is diabetic, they base each injection amount on their preshot test. Wait 6 hours (mealtime), then test /shoot again. There is no regard for Nadir except to make sure if you go too low, to eat to bring it back up. Queensland is more concerned with the Nadir and how low the current dosage brings the kitty down, and less concern is given to how high the high end is. This is probably successful in cats since they can get higher than people without doing damage to their kidneys and liver. I've seen a couple sites with "PZI tables" that give a BG range and a recommended dosage. Queensland is more geared towards your specific cat's reaction to the insulin.

Lantus has only been in widescale use for about 5 years, so the protocols for it are still very new. PZI on the other hand has been used since the early 90's I believe. That means more books on your vet's shelf that reference PZI instead of the newer Lantus or Levemir.
 
Re: 8/11 Savannah amps 354, vet wants her to eat dry d/m

I use my vet for prescriptions only. She just hasn't had the training nor has wanted to do the research necessary to know exactly how fd, diet and insulin should be handled. I saw amazing results when I switch Trouble to wet food and will never give him or his brother dry again. Like you, my vet also suggested varying doses (she wanted 3u in am and 2u for pm). I posed the question here which is when I started learning more about Trouble's shed and how varying doses can mess with my progress. Good luck finding the right answers for you!
 
Re: 8/11 Savannah amps 354, vet wants her to eat dry d/m

the first thing my vet told me when Tray was diagnosed is to ween him off any and all dry food. He basically thinks it give cats a whole lot of bad issues down the road.
I noticed a change in both my Tray and my civie Percival's health once I eliminated dry food.
I wouldn't feed Savannah dry food if she were my kitty.

I hope Savannah comes out of that pink for you
 
Re: 8/11 Savannah amps 354, vet wants her to eat dry d/m

Hi: I used DM dry for 8 months for 8 cats. Tuffy was a tough one to regulate. She is OTJ and has been since June 12, 2010 after 2 1/2 years due to this board. I would not feed dry and do not feed dry to any of my cats now. The Tilly protocol is used on this board. It works. The people here are excellent. Be patient, BREATHE, you can get there. Do you have HC FF on hand if she drops? Review the stickies at the top of the page. You are in good hands. Check some of the SS for other kitties including Tuffy. Good luck. You can do this.
 
Re: 8/11 Savannah amps 354, vet wants her to eat dry d/m

I'm just dropping in to say that I agree with everything that has been said. Wet food is much better than dry, especially for diabetic kitties and insulin needs to be dosed consistently, and adjusted as per the protocal.

Some vets are not fully educated on FD and have only had a one day class on it. Also, some vets will try to sell the "special prescription diet foods" because the get a portion of the proceeds. My vet has had a diabetic cat, but that was some years ago, and things have changed. She never heard of using Lev or Lantus on kitties and took a leap of faith by prescribing Lev for Spot. I did my research and did my printouts and gave them to her and she called her advisor and discussed it. Her exact words were "we'll learn about this together". Did she try to sell me the prescription dry/wet food....yep, but when I talked about carbs in the Sophisticat brand of food, she was perfectly satisfied with that.
What I'm saying here is that your vet my not be up on all the things that he needs to be in regards to FD. The folks on the board are well seasoned vets (some of them) and others who have learned from the vets and from reading and research. It is hard to put your faith into folks you just know by name and typed words, but believe me....there is nothing we wouldn't do to ensure that your kitty is in good hands and only the best of advise given.

That's my two cents worth!!!
 
Re: 8/11 Savannah amps 354, vet wants her to eat dry d/m

SeattleBrian said:
I believe standard protocol for Human treatment of diabetes and some PZI protocols run differently than the Queensland Protocol that most people on Lantus use here. From what I understand from talking to my friend who is diabetic, they base each injection amount on their preshot test. Wait 6 hours (mealtime), then test /shoot again. There is no regard for Nadir except to make sure if you go too low, to eat to bring it back up. Queensland is more concerned with the Nadir and how low the current dosage brings the kitty down, and less concern is given to how high the high end is. This is probably successful in cats since they can get higher than people without doing damage to their kidneys and liver. I've seen a couple sites with "PZI tables" that give a BG range and a recommended dosage. Queensland is more geared towards your specific cat's reaction to the insulin.
Click to expand...
This information is not entirely correct. It is correct for short and/or intermediate acting insulin (e.g., NPH or Humulin N for humans and cats, PZI for cats -- to a degree). If you read up on the human use of Lantus (or other similar types of insulin like Levemir or Ultralente), it is a long-acting, once a day dose and dosing is based on nadir. The difference between human and feline use is the frequency of dose -- a cat's metabolism is faster than that of a human and requires twice a day dosing. The assumption that cats can sit in numbers that are above renal threshold and not ultimately experience damage to their organs is also incorrect. The difference is that the overall lifespan of a cat is shorter than that of a human.

As for the use of dry food, I would suggest an analogy for your vet. Would he give his diabetic child a cookie, even if it was a gluten free cookie? That's what he's suggesting. (And I suspect we know the answer to that question.) A human diabetic who is adhering to treatment is on a carbohydrate restricted diet. My vet also prescribed D/M. When I came back to the office with 3 cases of the stuff and asked to be reimbursed, she was concerned. And then I pointed out that I could feed a higher quality food that was lower in carbohydrates for a fraction of the cost. She was fine with what I was doing since I understood the principle involved.

Shooting different amounts at the AM and PM is likely to create all kinds of problems with the shed. It's not like the dose will average out. If a dose is too high, then your cat will earn a reduction and the dose is lowered.
 
Re: 8/11 Savannah amps 354, vet wants her to eat dry d/m

Thanks all for making good points. I am really quite lucky to know so many ppl who understand this information and can help. We've been a bit disappointed with our vets, although they are very nice. The first guy we had was "old school" and sometimes too laid back. When he retired another vet took Savannah and was really happy to see that we home tested and switched diets, but also could not help us with her dosage (when she was on Hum N). Currently, we went to Tufts Animal Hospital (we needed a consult for her seizure) and it's supposed to be great, but I have been disappointed with the doctor..who is also a neurologist and diabetes specialist...
Today when I brought up how the dry d/m food has more carbs that what I am giving her, she reminded me that every cat is different and Savannah may respond better to it. It just made me second guess what I was doing even though I know that she's been better since we switched her diet.
(The other thing that bothered me is that I told her about the food list and she brushed it off as possible misinformation from the internet. Like, oh yes, ppl want to mess with other ppl's cat's blood sugar mwahahah.)

When she had her small seizures it was really scary to us. Now I just feel like if this person knows so little about diabetes, how can I trust her to know why she thinks the seizure happened?
I'm just anxious nailbite_smile
Thanks for responding and understanding! I know I am in good hands here.
Cindy and Mousie...I will tell her to eat the d/m ;-)
 
Re: 8/11 Savannah amps 354, vet wants her to eat dry d/m

dd & savannah said:
(The other thing that bothered me is that I told her about the food list and she brushed it off as possible misinformation from the internet. Like, oh yes, ppl want to mess with other ppl's cat's blood sugar mwahahah.)
Click to expand...
I guess she thinks the Veterinary Information Network (VIN) spreads misinformation on the internet then. Dr Alice Wolf, VIN consultant, referred Meowzi's former vet to Janet and Binky's food chart. Aside from being a VIN consultant, Dr Wolf is also Emeritus/Adjunct Professor, Small Animal Veterinary Clinical Sciences at the Texas A&M University.
 
Re: 8/11 Savannah amps 354, vet wants her to eat dry d/m

Are you anywhere near Angell Animal Medical Center. Cyn/Cosmo uses them and has great things to say about the care they gave Cosmo and her civie, Danger. There are other FDMB/LL members who have used those vets and really do get what we do. They have general services as well as specialty vets and are very well known and respected.

It's also really odd that a veterinary neurologist would be a diabetes specialist. Usually diabetes specialists are endocrinologists -- an entirely different subspecialty.
 
Re: 8/11 Savannah amps 354, vet wants her to eat dry d/m

Angell is probably just as close as Tufts (about 40 minutes) it's something def. to think about. We did have to take my dog there, and my parents didn't love them. All hospitals have there strengths and weakness in specialty areas though. I have a friend who loved Tufts for her dog that had cancer, I guess I thought I was going to have a good experience too. I will message Cyn/Cosmo, thanks for the suggestion!
WCF- I'm not sure if she knew that it was connected with VIN, she didn't seem to want to hear it. Her loss, really.
 
Re: 8/11 Savannah amps 354, vet wants her to eat dry d/m

Patience & consistancy my two fav words for newbies--My cats ate wet & dry every day--
Moonie got neuropathy & all the symptoms all the kitties get, and once she did, vet wanted her to eat DM TOO!! :o :o
Guess what? They sell the DM at the vets--get the picture @-) @-) @-)
We have been here a long time...Dry food needs to be discarded--If the transition is hard, mix the dry food with the wet, each day more wet & less dry, till Savannah will eat the wet..Please have faith in this board!
My cat is alive & well because of it & not because of the vet!!!!--He also told me Moonie was a transient diabetic-HA! :lol:
We have been here 2 1/2 yrs..and she is doing well--Not Transient!!
 
Re: 8/11 Savannah pmps 305, dose question

Should I moved her dose up to a skinny 1 u? Or hold for one more day?
Thx,
D

Roni- the sad thing is she does really like the wet food. When she was first diagnosed I gave her the prescription dry for one year until I found out about this board, switched her to wet and dropped her from 6 units bid to 1 unit!!! I happened to tell the vet that she does like dry food, but of course she likes the dry food she's a carb junkie and gets bored of her wet food. I'm not switching, even if the vet made me second guess myself!! This board has been great...it's been four years since dx and 3 yrs since I've known about FDMB, I never feel alone and for that I am truly grateful! Sometimes I don't know why I get the vet involved!
 
Re: 8/11 Savannah pmps 305, dose question

Was there any dry food today?

If you get no further reply, you may want to hold off and continue with regular dose until further feedback from others.

You're still transitioning right?

Can you note on SS if there was dry given today?
 
Re: 8/11 Savannah pmps 305, dose question

it looks to me like you have room to increase to 1 unit. It has been 5 days since the last green, so any bounce should have cleared by now.
 
Re: 8/11 Savannah pmps 305, dose question

No, the last piece of dry food she had was 6 days ago. She did just eat a feather from a toy. Awesome.
I'm not transitioning, she's been on wet for 2-3 years but I've always kept dry food around in case. I just learned about the gravy, so now I have that instead.

I decided to hold since it looks like her ps came down a bit. Maybe tomorrow.
 
Re: 8/11 Savannah amps 354, vet wants her to eat dry d/m

dd & savannah said:
WCF- I'm not sure if she knew that it was connected with VIN, she didn't seem to want to hear it. Her loss, really.
Click to expand...
No, it's not connected with VIN. The food chart is created and maintained by our very own Janet and Binky. But the fact that a respected internal med specialist on VIN refers veterinarians and their patients to it speaks to the chart's credibility.
 
No dosing advice today.
However, I wanted to stop by to let you know that I also agree with the others who said to shoot same dose morning and evening and pitch the evil kibble.
I wish vets would point to the internet for the treatment of diabetic cats... :roll:
Continue to post daily!
 
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