Rob & Harley (GA)
Very Active Member
I don't understand what is happening here, I thought we were fine tuning. I upped him to 1.4u.
Yesterdays News
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=20574
Yesterdays News
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=20574
7/25 Harley AMPS 341, +5 199, PMPS 161
- Thread starter Rob & Harley (GA)
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Anonymous
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Re: 7/25 Harley AMPS 341
Hi Rob, Wow your SS confused me at first. It's like it's upside down. Have you ever looked at others, they usually read from top down while yours goes from below to top.
Ok i have sooooo many questions about what your doing.
Actaully I'm going to pm you a Phone #
NOT TO GIVE ADVIS EVERYONE...but just to quickly understand what the shooting stratagy is here...i'm not up to date and I really don't get it.
Lori
Hi Rob, Wow your SS confused me at first. It's like it's upside down. Have you ever looked at others, they usually read from top down while yours goes from below to top.
Ok i have sooooo many questions about what your doing.
Actaully I'm going to pm you a Phone #
NOT TO GIVE ADVIS EVERYONE...but just to quickly understand what the shooting stratagy is here...i'm not up to date and I really don't get it.
Lori
Joanna & Bix (GA)
Very Active Member
Re: 7/25 Harley AMPS 341, +5 199
Fine-tuning can be a little tricky, so don't be discouraged. What I have seen with Bix is that when he gets in good #s he gets even better #s, and when he gets in worse #s, things tend to get worse. I think there is a combination of factors (this is my semi-informed speculation):
- if their pancreas is sputtering it will show increasing signs of life when they are in good #s, so can give them unusually good duration, or longer rides in the good #s than otherwise
- when they are in higher #s for a couple days, their pancreases will go back to dozing off, and also some insulin resistance will build up, so they tend to end up needing more insulin to bring the #s down
- there is momentum to the doses (minor overlap) for some cats (not all will see that) so if you stay at something like 1.4 for a few cycles, by cycle 3 or 4 you may see better #s than you did on cycle 1, vs. if you lower the dose, the #s may get a little worse after 3 or 4 cycles than they were at first.
My thinking is that you may need 1.4 (or higher) to get back to good #s, and then you may start seeing what you saw before, those lowish #s early in the cycle and have to back off the dose again. The trick is just to time everything right - if you see the momentum building on 1.4, just keep an eye out for early low #s again, and if you see those, then pull back to 1.3. If you don't see results on 1.4 within the next 2 days (4 cycles), then I would try 1.5.
Remember too that those lower #s on 1.4 came off of lower PSs. Until you start seeing those again it's a little bit of catch-up, then with the better PSs you may need to fine-tune a bit more with fat or skinny doses to get exactly what you want.
I know it's confusing, but you are doing great!!! Just keep asking whatever questions you have, and as you keep going it will start making more sense.
Fine-tuning can be a little tricky, so don't be discouraged. What I have seen with Bix is that when he gets in good #s he gets even better #s, and when he gets in worse #s, things tend to get worse. I think there is a combination of factors (this is my semi-informed speculation):
- if their pancreas is sputtering it will show increasing signs of life when they are in good #s, so can give them unusually good duration, or longer rides in the good #s than otherwise
- when they are in higher #s for a couple days, their pancreases will go back to dozing off, and also some insulin resistance will build up, so they tend to end up needing more insulin to bring the #s down
- there is momentum to the doses (minor overlap) for some cats (not all will see that) so if you stay at something like 1.4 for a few cycles, by cycle 3 or 4 you may see better #s than you did on cycle 1, vs. if you lower the dose, the #s may get a little worse after 3 or 4 cycles than they were at first.
My thinking is that you may need 1.4 (or higher) to get back to good #s, and then you may start seeing what you saw before, those lowish #s early in the cycle and have to back off the dose again. The trick is just to time everything right - if you see the momentum building on 1.4, just keep an eye out for early low #s again, and if you see those, then pull back to 1.3. If you don't see results on 1.4 within the next 2 days (4 cycles), then I would try 1.5.
Remember too that those lower #s on 1.4 came off of lower PSs. Until you start seeing those again it's a little bit of catch-up, then with the better PSs you may need to fine-tune a bit more with fat or skinny doses to get exactly what you want.
I know it's confusing, but you are doing great!!! Just keep asking whatever questions you have, and as you keep going it will start making more sense.
Rob & Harley (GA)
Very Active Member
I just don't have the guts to shoot 1.4u at 161. I shot .5u to see what happens.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Well that sounds reasonable... :thumbup actually we can't be sure if he's still on his way down now can we?
Can't wait to see what the next reading brings nailbite_smile
I'm sure it'll all work out.
Lori
Can't wait to see what the next reading brings nailbite_smile
I'm sure it'll all work out.
Lori
Joanna & Bix (GA)
Very Active Member
That's good Robin, you still have a no shoot a little higher than that right? So given that, it would make sense to do what you did, or instead (for next time) you could wait & retest in 20 minutes and see if the # is a little higher. If you took the second route, I'd still pull back a little, since it looks like you've got too much momentum again.
I would not have shot 1.4 on this either, sorry if I've been confusing and have given the impression that I would. My reasons are:
1) +12 (PMPS) is significantly better than initial PS, suggesting dose is a good one for bringing #s down, but too strong for maintaining #s,
2) +12 is lower than the +5, which can be a sign the dose is too high,
3) It looks like you have overlap, so that generally means you will get better results on the next shot than what you have been seeing, so if the PS is already on the low side, could be results that are too good. (you can tell there's overlap b/c there's no apparent zoom by +12, so a new shot is working off a low flattish # rather than a zooming # or a high #, so when the new shot kicks in it doesn't have to start by fighting the higher #s, it can go right away to the nice low ones, which means you generally would need less insulin to get the same effect - that's oversimplified, but trying to explain my thinking here so you'll know how to understand the #s!)
4) last time you shot 1.4 on a PS in the low 200s you got low #s, and this PS is even lower than that, so that suggests 1.4 may be too much for any PS under 250,
5) you don't have much data on PSs this low, so it's a good idea in general to reduce the dose and gather some data,
6) it's below your no-shoot, so you wouldn't want to shoot on this anyhow (or reducing the dose like you did is fine too)
You got such an improved response on this one, it makes me wonder if maybe a skinny 1.4 would have done the trick too. Perhaps even at another cycle or 2 his #s would have improved at 1.3, but I'm thinking maybe he needed a little BAM from the 1.4 to get some action. Anyhow, good job, and hope things go well tomorrow! Don't be surprised if he goes high on the 0.5, that's what always happened with Bix when I dropped the dose a lot. But better safe than sorry, and it's good data collection to see what happens. I'm thinking he may like 1.3 afterall, but I'm not sure, time will tell I guess!
I would not have shot 1.4 on this either, sorry if I've been confusing and have given the impression that I would. My reasons are:
1) +12 (PMPS) is significantly better than initial PS, suggesting dose is a good one for bringing #s down, but too strong for maintaining #s,
2) +12 is lower than the +5, which can be a sign the dose is too high,
3) It looks like you have overlap, so that generally means you will get better results on the next shot than what you have been seeing, so if the PS is already on the low side, could be results that are too good. (you can tell there's overlap b/c there's no apparent zoom by +12, so a new shot is working off a low flattish # rather than a zooming # or a high #, so when the new shot kicks in it doesn't have to start by fighting the higher #s, it can go right away to the nice low ones, which means you generally would need less insulin to get the same effect - that's oversimplified, but trying to explain my thinking here so you'll know how to understand the #s!)
4) last time you shot 1.4 on a PS in the low 200s you got low #s, and this PS is even lower than that, so that suggests 1.4 may be too much for any PS under 250,
5) you don't have much data on PSs this low, so it's a good idea in general to reduce the dose and gather some data,
6) it's below your no-shoot, so you wouldn't want to shoot on this anyhow (or reducing the dose like you did is fine too)
You got such an improved response on this one, it makes me wonder if maybe a skinny 1.4 would have done the trick too. Perhaps even at another cycle or 2 his #s would have improved at 1.3, but I'm thinking maybe he needed a little BAM from the 1.4 to get some action. Anyhow, good job, and hope things go well tomorrow! Don't be surprised if he goes high on the 0.5, that's what always happened with Bix when I dropped the dose a lot. But better safe than sorry, and it's good data collection to see what happens. I'm thinking he may like 1.3 afterall, but I'm not sure, time will tell I guess!
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