? 6-7-24 Tyler/ Does Forti Flora really help with diahhrea Most likely Tyler has Stomach Cancer

I am not familiar with this . Why I am asking Tyler has been losing weight, throwing up on and off and has diahhrea .
I have been giving him pure pumpkin and it's helping. One day it's formed and then the next 2 days it's very mushy.
Before I started the Pumpkin it was pure diahhrea

I took him to the ER last Friday and they did do a ton of blood work which I entered on his SS. They also did an ultrasound

I don't know how to take a pic of the report so I'll type it out

Diffusely distended intestines
Multiple Reactive LN throughout the GI tract
Thickened Momentum
No FF ( whatever FF means I don't know)

Discussed with O clinical lab findings I assume 0 means owner
Discussed with O I would like to do a POCUS to rule out as elevation with BUN without creatinine may potentially GI indicate bleeding

Discussed with O Tyler's Kidneys may still be affected as Tyler is muscle wasted which would decrease Creatinine and may mask azotemia

Although USG shows appreciate concentration of the urine there is protein in the urine and should consider whether there is an underlying kidney disease .

Discussed with O Platelets were low on CBC and that platelets help us clot blood and would need to look at a blood smear to determine if there was platelet clumping which would decrease the platelet count.

Discussed with O it was difficult getting blood from Tyler and traumatic blood draw/can cause platelet clumping

On blood smear there were about 50,000 platelets with clumping

Discussed with O with <30,000 platelets there is risk for spontaneous bleeding but on Blood smear there was an estimate of 50,000 platelets
with clumping and we can redraw blood at this time and do another blood smear and compare the two diagnostics.
O elected not to do the second blood draw at this time.

Discussed with O VEG POCUS showed diffusely thickened intestines and reactive LN throughout the GI tract making us suspicious for neoplasia vs. autoimmune disease.

Discussed with O following up with her DVM or speciality ( internal medicine vs. oncology) for further diagnostic workup.

O understands that we could not rule out neoplasia at this time and would like to take Tyler home with supportive care.

O has Fluids at home and can administer SQ 100 mls SQ once a day with Cerenia .

Discussed with O following up with DVM on Monday to discuss long term treatment plan for Tyler and possible diagnostics.
O understands . Discussed with O to return to VEG ( Veterinary Emergency Group ) if signs worsens or do not improve for tx and further DX.

I came out and asked the vet at the ER what is it stomach cancer and she said if she had to give an educated guess yes.

Right now I am giving fluids everyday, I can see his gums are pale and sticky when I touch them.
He's still eating great, peeing, pooping, playing, tail is always up,
I will be weighing him every 2 weeks to see if he's losing more.
Right now he weighs 10 lbs 2 ounces.
He is very boney.

I am heartbroken.
I do not have the funds to take him to another doctor or any further testing. This ER visit cost 1,085.00 which my sister paid for.
I had to file bankruptcy about 2 years ago
Even if I get care credit I won't be able to make the payments if I take him to another doctor ..There is no way ,I'm on a fixed income
Any money I did have went toward things for my daughter when she passed away.

My vet that I always went to went to a Petco ,I guess they call it Vetco .
That was the owner.
Dr Sass was actually my vet there at his practice before he moved to Petco, she left him because they worked her to the bone 7 days a week.
Dr Berber and Dr Pla were the owners and each one probably only came in twice a week. So that's why Dr Sass left..
So I really have no vet at this time.
I called Dr Sass ,she remembered me ,Tyler and Perry. We became very close with her.
Where she is now is to far away even if I wanted to take Tyler there.
She was nice enough to call Chewey's and give me another bag of fluids with 1 refill even though I haven't seen her in about 3 or 4 years .

So I guess my plan now is to weigh him every 2 weeks to see if he has lost anymore weight or stops eating and starts to vomit a lot.

That's really all I can do. He's 16 yrs old.

So what I really want to know do you think the Forti Flora will help with the diahhrea. Sometimes he won't eat the pumpkin in his food and I have to mix it with water and syringe it which takes so long

Do I give one packet a day mixed in his/wet food and add water
Will Forti Flora knock him out of remission?
Will it raise his BG?
What the heck does FF mean? Does it mean Free Fluids?
After 3-1/2 years of being in remission this had to happen to him
I have lost 6 pounds already over this . I just can't believe this happened to him.
Lost his brother Perry 4 years ago to kidney disease , most of you know this , now Tyler . I am sick over this .
I haven't been on the board lately so that's why .
Plus been dealing with some health issues myself
I miss all of you and will be back on the board soon .

Just looking for some insight about all of this
Thanks ladies
@Wendy&Neko
@Marje and Gracie
@Suzanne & Darcy
@Sienne and Gabby (GA)


I googled about forti flora and it said
This product contains maltodextrin which is a carbohydrate and WILL affect blood glucose levels. In humans, maltodextrin can affect blood sugar even more so than table sugar. DO NOT use if your cat is diabetic!

Also see this when I googled
What are the ingredients in FortiFlora?
I don't see maltodextrin listed ? SO what is true ?

What is in FortiFlora? FortiFlora Powder Ingredients: Animal digest, Enterococcus faecium, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), brewers dried yeast, Vitamin E supplement, zinc proteinate, beta-Carotene, salt, manganese proteinate, ferrous sulfate, copper proteinate, calcium iodate, sodium selenite.


Or is this the calming one that has it in it ?
Purina Pro Plan Veterinary Supplements Calming Care Dog Probiotic Anxiety Supplement
www.proplanvetdirect.com › calming-car...
Rating 4.5
') 0px 0px / 13px 15px repeat-x;">') 0px 0px / 13px 15px repeat-x;">
(349)
Ingredients. Active Ingredients per Sachet (1g): Bifidobacterium longum BL999 1X109 CFU Inactive Ingredients: Liver Flavor, Maltodextrin



I just don't want to give him the fortiflora if it's going to raise his BG and knick him out of remission

 

To me, this reads more like small cell lymphoma, a very slow growing cancer of the bowels. And unfortunately a too common issue with older cats. Punch line - given the right meds (steroid and a mild chemo), over 90% of the cats go into remission. My current cat was diagnosed over 6 years ago. For a diabetic, you'd tend to give budesonide, which is what Neko had, for steroid option.

For diarrhea, you have a couple options. Fortiflora isn't the best option - it's a single strain of probiotic. No, it won't knock him out of remission. A better probiotic is Visbiome, or Proviable though you need to give more of it than Visbiome. Proviable has a Forte(?) gel version that is also good for diarrhea. You can also give psyllium husk powder in his food. I would normally suggest s. boullardi for diarrhea, but it doesn't work if the cat is low in B12. Many cats with IBD or small cell lymphoma (which look alike on ultrasounds) are low in B12. I only tested two of my three SCL kitties, and their B12 level was normal. FYI - all three of mine were just vomiters.

Losing weight is also a sign, and sometimes the only sign of SCL. GI bleeding is also common with SCL and IBD as the bowel lining can be damaged. That will go away once treatment is started.

No free fluids is a good sign, as that can be a sign of progression of cancer. The report doesn't say anything about a mass, which is also good. That generally means large cell lymphoma which is much faster growing, and that's what stomach cancer typically is.

If you can't take him to another vet visit, one option may be just to try him on budesonide (locally acting steroid), and see if that helps. But you will need a vet to prescribe it for you.

Thinking of you, take care of yourself too.

 

Thank you so much Wendy
Will budesonide knock him out of remission. I know absolutely nothing about this
When you said
For diarrhea, you have a couple options. Fortiflora isn't the best option - it's a single strain of probiotic. No, it won't knock him out of remission. A better probiotic is Visbiome, or Proviable though you need to give more of it than Visbiome. Proviable has a Forte(?) gel version that is also good for diarrhea. You can also give psyllium husk powder in his food. I would normally suggest s. boullardi for diarrhea, but it doesn't help if the cat is low in B-12

Do you mean I would have to give more of the Proviable than the Visbiome?

I wonder why they didn't test for B-12
@Wendy&Neko

 

Diane, I am so sorry to hear you and Tyler are going through this! I will be praying for you and Tyler! Paws crossed that remission is a possibility! Mr Mazi and I are sending lots of love, hugs, and well wishes to you and Tyler!

 

It's hard to say on the budesonide, it's ECID. It didn't impact Neko's BG's at all. The small cell lymphoma group I belong to usually recommends kitties switch to budesonide if the prednisolone makes them diabetic. I've seen a small number of cats get a numbers bump from budesonide, but more that don't.

B-12 is a separate test, usually not done unless asked for. As far as the Proviable, I mean you have to give a greater volume to get the same amount of CFU (colony forming units). Visbiome is just more concentrated.

 

Thank you Wendy

 

Diane, I am so sorry Tyler is not well.
Re the visbiome…I tried to get some in Australia but couldn’t, but I was able to get something very similar for Clover who had chronic frequent loose poops. The difference was amazing. She has been having it for 6 months now and has been having normal poops since the second week. And her energy and weight is so much better. So I would also recommend trying visbiome.

 

One other option for a probiotic, especially if you are trying to get diarrhea under control is S. boulardii. The IBD group I have used and referred to has a great page on med and supplements with links to managing diarrhea. IMHO, S. boulardii is magic!

 

I'm so sorry. I hope you can get the diarrhea under control and keep Tyler feeling good. Sending prayers.

 

Oh Diane I’m so sorry to hear what’s going on with Tyler. I know you must be so upset and worried. You’re such a great Mom to him.
Praying for both of you to navigate this path to keep him feeling well. And please try to take care of your own health issues as well. He needs you to be well.
We are sending you many hugs, and love and support

 

Dear Diane, I am so sorry to hear Tyler is not well and you have to worry so much. I can imagine this is quite overwhelming now. So good, you asked for advice. I send the best wishes and healing energy for Tyler and you across the ocean.

 

Thanks so much Sienne for the link

 

@Bron and Sheba (GA)
@Sienne and Gabby (GA)
@Staci & Ivy
@carfurby (GA)
@Heike & BInie
@Wendy&Neko
Thank you all so much ♥

 

Diane - I'm so sorry that this is happening when you've already had so much going on. ❤️❤️❤️

 

Sending strength your way and healing vibes for Tyler.

 

Healing vines.

 

Aww thank you Kel
@Red & Rover (GA)

 

Thank you Alicia
@Alicia & Kit cat

 

Thank you
@JLS12

 

So very sorry to hear this for you and Tyler. Totally understand not wanting to be on the forum as much. It's stressful and heartbreaking to deal with these sick kitties that we love with all our hearts. I've heard @Wendy&Neko @Sienne and Gabby (GA) @Bandit's Mom all talk about s. Boullardi so maybe give that a try. Big hugs to you and Tyler!

 

Thank you Heather ,I'm going to give the S Boullardi a try

 

I recommend this combination, helped Kona!

Chewy - https://www.chewy.com/vetoquinol-pro-pectalin-diarrhea/dp/109718
Note: you'll see powdered sugar as an ingredient, my vet said it was fine, negligible amount to affect BG, but you may want to not risk it.

Whole Foods or any other natural food store - https://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/pr...omyces-boulardii-plus-mos-90-count-b00o4puczu

For the S. Boulardii, I used the emergency, stop diarrhea method NOW instructions they detail here: https://www.foodfurlife.com/my-cat-has-diarrhea---what-do-i-do.html#/

The Jarrow's was recommended from @Bandit's Mom @tiffmaxee @Wendy&Neko when Kona had issues. The Pro-Pectalin was what the Emergency Vet recommended. Both worked very well together as different strains...

 

Dear Diane, I'm sorry to hear this but, as Wendy says, the issue might well be SCL, which is exactly what is suspected in Eddie's case if not IBD. So, the treatment, again as Wendy says, is not that invasive and can result in remission. At this point, a good rule of thumb is to keep things as simple as possible and that pathway seems the way to go.

I'd forget the FontiFlora and go with the s.boulardi or even a fantastic product called Proviable-FORTE (digestive health suppement). Honestly, when Eddie had diarrhea, this product worked within days.

Thinking of you and Tyler. Eddie and I send all good thoughts.

 

Sorry, here is the product

 

https://www.proviable.com/proviable-kits-for-cats

 

Diane I’m so sorry you’re going through all this with Tyler. It is so stressful and hard when your baby is sick. You’re always so giving helping everyone here but you need to use your time for yourself and Tyler now. Sending you hugs and healing thoughts.

 

Thank you Jodey, I'm sorry you are going through the same dam thing with Eddie. It never ends does it
@Jodey&Eddie&Blue

 

@Deb and Tiger
Thank you so much Deb , sending hugs right back at you

 

I think I will have to get Tyler's B-12 tested to see if it's low because Wendy said above
I would normally suggest s. boullardi for diarrhea, but it doesn't work if the cat is low in B12.

 

My humble opinion: If it is SCL, that trumps diabetes. Yes, try to keep Tyler in remission but the other treatment is more important.

 

Thanks Kel

 

I truly truly appreciate everyone's concern your advice and your suggestions for Tyler.
To be very honest I do not have one red cent to start with oral chemo and any type of steroids. Going back and forth to the vets for blood work and the charge for office visits.

The ER visit and blood work and ultrasound cost 1,800.00 bucks. My sister paid for it and I'll be paying her back monthly

I had to file bankruptcy about 2 years ago
Even if I get care credit I won't be able to make the payments if I take him to another doctor ..There is no way ,I'm on a fixed income
Any money I did have went toward things for my daughter when she passed away.

I'm 68 yrs old ,don't work , I have a lot of health issues ,won't get into that.
You all may think I'm a bad mom because I can't afford all of this for Tyler and I feel bad enough as it is .
My husband died in 2008 age 51 so it's just me.
I'll see if I can swing taking him to get his B-12 checked and if it's low I'll give him oral B-12 supplement, then at least I can start on the Jarrows S Boulardii , since I was told if is B-12 is low the Jarrows will not help.
I'll keep track of his weight , he's still eating good and in good spirits.
I'm giving fluids everyday. He's still playing, grooming, his tail is always up in the air
It's this dam diahhrea. The pure pumpkin isn't doing the job everyday.
One day his poop is formed ,then the next day it's diahhrea.

This is the best I can do for him and believe me it's killing me .
So please don't judge me ,that would just kill me.
My heart breaks for him that I can't do more for him

 

You're doing the best you can for Tyler. That's all any of us can do. Sending prayers.

 

Or just try the s. boullardi. If it doesn't work, it's possible his B12 is low. You could supplement the B12, but you probably don't want to unless you have to. On the SCL forum I'm on, they suggest not to give B12 unless you have to, as there is some studies showing cancer might like B12.

IMHO, if you have to prioritize anything, get him the steroid first. I'll help him the most. Prednisilone is cheap, but more like to bring him out of diabetes, then you have the FD expenses. Budesonide less like to ruin remission (though it does in small numbers of cats), and will get you the most health bang for the buck for Tyler. SCL is slow moving, the steroid will give you more time with Tyler and make him feel better.

 

Diane, I am so sorry to hear this. It is so very stressful. I know you will provide the best of loving care possible. He is so lucky to have you. Thinking of you and sending healing prayers. PS The psyllium fibre worked for my ibd cat. Just make sure you get the powdered kind, it melts into food and he wont taste it. Hugs

 

@Cindy loves Tansi
@Jingwen
Thank you so much ladies ♥

 

Oh my gosh, Diane. I just saw this.
I am so sorry that you and Tyler are going through this.
I hope Tyler does well with steroids and his diarrhea will subside. I'm praying for you, Diane.

 

Thank you Kit I appreciate it ♥

 

Hi Wendy I just ordered the Jarrows S Boulardii , I was reading that it tastes horrible, I assume I can put it in a gel capsule and pill it, or mix it in water or baby food and syringe it ?
Is this correct?
Thanks for all your help , I truly appreciate it
@Wendy&Neko

 

I never gave the s. boullardi with MOS.

 

Is the mos bad for them

 

MOS is supposed to be good - I just didn't get that version in Canada.

 

OK thank you

 

@Wendy&Neko
Sorry to bother you again Wendy
and @Sienne and Gabby (GA)

I got the Jarrows S Boulardii today I was reading about the emergency loading dose
It said
Give one-quarter of the 250mg / 5 billion CFU capsule every two hours or so.
Do you know if that means every 2 hours around the clock?
I was reading about here
I am not filling 10 gel caps with it like it says below ,I was going to give 1/2 a capsule 250 mg of the 5 billion CFU capsule every 2 hours
https://www.foodfurlife.com/my-cat-has-diarrhea---what-do-i-do.html#/

Where it starts with
For adult cats (defined here as 9 months of age and older):
Then read the rest

I see there is emergency dose

Adult Cat Therapeutic doses

Adult Cat Maintenance dose
On this site

https://www.ibdkitties.net/supplements/probiotics/

Sorry about the bold lettering

 

Sorry, I never had to give the emergency stop version. But it looks like similar instructions are here: https://www.ibdkitties.net/supplements/probiotics/

 

Diane, I'm sorry to rad that Tyler is sick. I don't have answers but I'm thinking about you and hope the probiotics will help

 

Thank you Cecile

 

Hi Diane and Tyler!

I'm just reading this meow and my heart breaks for you. I wish there was something we could do for you and Tyler. In the meantime I'm sending lots of PAWsitive thoughts and prayers your way ❤️ ❤️ ❤️

 

Hey @Diane Tyler's Mom, any progress with the S Boulardii?

For Kona, I didn't do it exactly 1/4 a capsule every 2 hours like that blogger suggested, but I did it maybe every 4 hours or so when I gave her snacks. I definitely didn't do it overnight. She ate it just fine mixed with gravy in her food, no issues.

I was also doing the Pro-Protalin at the same time as the Vet recommended, so I was throwing the kitchen sink at her. Probiotics are typically okay to not worry about overdoing it.

I don't come on the forum as much as I'd like to, but I wanted to stop by and check in. I'm thinking about you and Tyler.

If you want to try the Pro-Protalin as well, let me know. Maybe check with your vet and then I'll ship it to your house in a heartbeat. Just send me a private message and I'll order it now!

 

Thank you Karolina

 

Hi Jason so far the JarrowsvS Boulardii is doing squat
Started it on Monday
My vet should be calling me in Thurs or Fri.
I'll talk to her about the Pro- Pectalin .
Thanks so much Jason

 

oh no, so sorry to hear about Tyler. Sending hugs your way Diane

 

Diane

I’m very sorry to hear about Tyler. If all the information provided here, I would say Wendy has given you the best guidance. I prefer Visbiome over Proviable. The tests for the B vitamins has to be done faster and it goes to Texas A&M and so it’s a bit pricey between the blood draw and the tests so I think Wendy is spot on to try the S. boulardi and see how it works.

I have a friend that was rather in the same boat as you and she gave her cat budesonide and it really helped. That has been probably four years ago and the cat is still doing quite well. She just recently switched her to Smalls partially cooked cat food and has even been able to reduce the budesonide. I have looked at the %calories from carbs and they are really low so it’s a good LC food but the beef has way too much phosphorus in it for a cat that might have CKD so I’d avoid that and the fish.

It’s interesting he’s concentrating his urine but they suspect CKD. Honestly, my two very healthy cats always have a trace of protein in their urine and we’ve run the urine protein:creatinine ratios and they are always normal. My vet thinks it’s because they eat a balanced raw diet. If the protein in his urine is just trace, it might not be too significant but hard to tell without the UPC which is pricey.

I don’t see any values for protein in urine or his USG on his lab SS. There is nothing about his labs that screams CKD to me. I also don’t understand what she means by muscle wasting might mask CKD. I’ve never heard that and my cats who have clearly had CKD and muscle wasting had elevated creatinine and BUN, decreased USG. He’s also not anemic so I don’t know why his gums would be pale and I also don’t understand why she’s having you give him so much fluids. That’s the amount and frequency a cat in Stage III CKD would get.

When you lift his scruff does it stay up or quickly pop back into place?

 

Hi Marje, good to hear from you. I just checked his scruff and it does quickly pop back into place.
His gums feel tacky to me when I touch them .
I have been giving the Jarrows S boulardii with MOS since Monday
He still has diahhrea.
I'm following the Emergency Stop Version that I found on the links I posted on my post #48.
At the Er we weighed 10 lbs 2 ounces that was 5-31
I just weighed him this morning I got 10 lbs
He's still eating really good
Playing
Tail is always up in the air
Peeing good
It's just the diahhrea
I'm going to cut the fluids in half and give 50 mls .
He fights me every time really bad when I put him on the table that sometimes I can't even get the needle in him,so I met him go and try later .
Thank you for your feedback
At this point I'm going to just keep doing what I'm doing because of my financial situation, which I feel terrible about.
As soon as I see him not doing well I know what I have to do which breaks my heart.
After being in remission for 3 years and 4 months and now this is like a punch in the stomach.
Thank you Marje
I don’t see any values for protein in urine or his UPC or USG either on the labs
I only see under Urinalysis is
Urine Protein. 30 mg/dl
I put it at the bottom of the labs page and above those tests I put From ER 5-31-24 Urinalysis
Thank you Marje
I never knew
The tests for the B vitamins has to be done faster and it goes to Texas A&M , so when a vet does it ,it has to be sent to Texas A&M ?
They don't check it in house or sent to idexx ,zoetis or antech?
I know nothing about this
@Marje and Gracie
@Wendy&Neko

 

Diane!! thinking of you and Tyler and hoping the very best!! ..

 

Without there being a reference range, I don’t know what “urine protein 30” means. This must be in-house. The labs typically report it as either neg, trace, or #+ with the # being 1,2,3 etc.

Yes, the only lab I’m aware of that goes the GI Panel is Texas A&M. They also just do cobalamin and folate which is cheaper. I don’t think you need a test for pancreatitis but it wouldn’t hurt to do one for exocrine pancreatic insufficiency although he likely hasn’t developed that. You could discuss it with your vet.

As Wendy mentioned, the S. boulardi doesn’t work if the cobalamin (B12) is low. Typically, vets give B12 shots (which you can give at home) for cats with intestinal issues, IBD, or not eating well. I hadn’t read that. In fact, this research states:

Here is more info supporting that.

It’s certainly up to you in discussions with your vet but I would consider his age, whether you plan to treat any lymphoma (which hasn’t been diagnosed), and how to improve his QOL if you don’t treat the lymphoma even if it meant the lymphoma might progress. I would have to see some fairly recent and exhaustive research to convince me that B12 would be a negative for a cat that might potentially have cancer. JMHO.

 

@Marje and Gracie
I want to thank you for all your help
I just found the urine protein said negative on the labs and the USG which said >1.050. I added it to his labs
Plus I added other stuff down toward the bottom
They gave me 2 sets of blood work where I found the urine protein, then gave me another copy and it wasn't on that one
I don't want to keep asking questions , you and Wendy provided me with a lot of information and I thank you.
I'll talk to my vet about everything
Again thank you so much

 

With a USG of 1.050, and considering his other kidney values, IMHO, I would put CKD lower on the list of concerns. Pls let us know what your vet thinks.

 

She feels the same way you do