6/27 Jean Luc Dosage Questions Continue

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snorton

snorton

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I've read it can take up to 72 hours for the bounce to fully clear. Could his lastest #'s be a result of a bounce due to the lower numbers seen on 6/24? He has been eating Wellness Turkey and Wellness Chicken. He gets ~1.7oz prior to any shots, and then .7oz at +1.5, .7oz at +3.5 and .7oz at +7.5. This is roughly 304 calories per day for a 12 lb cat. Any other thought processes?

He is conducting the 4 P's. In the past week, he jumped on the counter (doesn't normally do that) targeting the cans of food, chased a string down the hall, and started jumping in laps again.
 
Howdy! cat_pet_icon

It would be really helpful if you could fill in the spreadsheet with the BG numbers. :smile: The space before the dose would be the AMPS or PMPS and the + numbers are how many hours after the shot the test was done. For example, if the morning pre-shot was 320, you'd see 320 in the AMPS cell, and if you tested five hours after the shot, the AM +5 would have the number there. :smile:

Not only is it a great place to store your numbers, others could also see them. It helps to see patterns, what works, what doesn't, and just all sorts of things. :smile: There's even a cell to keep notes of anything noteworthy or unusual.

Feeding multiple times a day is fine, and many prefer to do so. Remember, though, food will effect the BG numbers. :smile:

Edited to add: Silly me. Didn't notice the tabs! :lol:
 
Sorry to confuse on the tabs. I've just started to document his food intake on a more consistent basis to determine if there are patterns based on the food.

Yes, his feeding scheduled has consistently been at AMPS, +1.5, +3.5, +7.5 and then at PMPS, +1.5, +3.5, and +7.5 for the past 3 wks. We use the automatic feeder. The oz amounts depend on the calories within the food.
 
I think he is looking pretty good. Nice morning preshot number. Maybe increase to 1.6 (on a day or night when you can monitor) If the pmps consistently is higher than the am, we could also look at a 10/12 schedule instead of the 12/12.
 
No problem about the tabs...I should have been paying more attention. ohmygod_smile

Knowing the feeding schedule sure helps...at least for me it does, knowing how food can play with the numbers. The numbers during the cycle are really good, especially knowing food is involved during "nadir". I'm thinking the numbers would be too low without the food on board.

Sue and Carl - What would you think of Jean Luc having a lower dose for a bit, given the PSs are so high and the cycle numbers are so great - given food is on board?
 
Argh.... #'s going wild again. I guess this is the new norm!!

How long are you able to use your insulin? (I.e 1 month, 3 month, etc.). Mine is stored upright in safe place in fridge. No changes in food. No ketones. Just yo yoing...
 
I am not sure what is going on. I think I'd up the dose by .25. You have gotten some nice numbers every once in a while, but he is still too high at preshot.
 
7/1 jean luc pmps 195 to shot or not?

Gave 2.25U this am and now at pmps is 195. Shall i give 2.25U Insulin or reduce it?
 
Arghh:-)
I can't see 2.25 on a number that low. Not when it dropped him 350 points last cycle. Crap. He's probably going to bounce from that drop too, meaning tonight's cycle is most likely going to look wonky. Maybe 1.5? Or less?.
Carl
 
I will take the suggestion and give 1.5U. He just finished eating his normal evening meal. His belly is full until next meal at +1.5. I was beginning to think my insulin was going bad. Then got a good surprise with lower reading today.. Crossing my fingers this is a good sign... thanks again for the help and encouragement provided.
 
If his #'s are for some reason in the 100 - 200 in the am, shall i give 1.5U again? I am fully expecting a bounce back to > 200 or >300 at which I think the 2 to 2.25U might be okay. Does this sound logical? Sorry for the rambling..
 
Can you get a few readings tonight - before bed, maybe one near the +6 mark? That would tell us how this dose worked and give us a better idea about more/less in the am.

Great to see the 195!
 
Little guy did well last night. I missed the +6 (fell asleep), but I did get the +8.5 (298). AMPS is 355. Perhaps, 1.5U to 1.75U is appropriate??
 
I am most likely too late to advise, but either sounds good. (See, you are getting the hang of this!) It's a matter of trying a dose and getting a midcycle number to see how that worked and doing that again. You are doing great and so is he!
 
I mulled it over in my head for a few minutes this am and decided on 2U. I made sure he ate a really good breakfast about 20 minutes prior to shot. He also has plenty of food for +1.5 & +4.5. I also split up his normal +7.5 into two feedings: 1 at +7.5 and the other and +8.5. He seems to like to snack during the last 1/2 of the cycles. My vet called this am for his 2 week check-up. I gave her the update and she was pleased with the thought processes and his win to below 400 / 500 this am and 195's late cycle. Thank you again for the advice. My vet is also willing to switch to glargine if we can't get the ProZinc / PZI to last the full 12 hours. She has copies of his #'s. I think I'll play with the dosages for a little while longer before making that decision. I hasn't quite been 2 months yet. I did hear that many cats have gone into remission with the glargine, so I'm not completely ruling it out.

Crossing my fingers he doesn't go hog wild today without any supervision ... nailbite_smile
 
Ok..so maybe the 2u probably wasn't a good choice. He was over 500 at pmps. Back to the old kitty tigger pattern... Bong!! confused_cat Currently is at 298 @ +4. Will be eating at +4.5 and again at +7.5. Should I give him extra lc food to stimulate the liver and pancreas? Is a lower dosage in order going forward?
 
Yes, I would think it's a bounce and next time, give a little less at the same preshot? Wish we knew that he went down mid cycle and how much. It sounds like you are feeding him often enough.

Your previous cycle with the blue pmps was encouraging. Let's see if we can get him down again.
 
He does confuse me. I think I would go back to the 2.25 and see if you can get those better numbers and longer cycles, assuming you can get a midcycle at least. Lowering the dose did not seem to calm the bounces.
 
Thank you to all on this board. You have been very supportive. Each post brings new tidbits of information.

Gave kitty 2.25u last night. At +7.5 was 112. At amps was 351. Gave 2.25U. At +6 was 248. At +7.5 was 403. I guess it is going to be a bouncey day. No ketones. Will keep plugging away. Thankful he has spent 12 hours below 400. Perhaps, majority under 300. I will accept the little wins!!!
 
Nice nadir at 112. Looks like he is going to be a bouncy cat. It might be helpful for you to look at bookworm's spreadsheet. Her Cassie has been the real Tigger of the board. He gives her nice nadirs and then bounces back for pmps. She has just stuck with it and he is gradually bouncing less and the bounces last less time.

I know it's discouraging but with some cats, it just takes time.

Did you try feeding just after the nadir to see if you can soften the bounce? It works with some cats, but not others but might be worth a try. Seems like you were offering food at nadir so that may be a mute point.....
 
#'s still high today. He does eat at 7.5 which seems to around nadir.

Shall I hold at 2.25U or increase to 2.5U? I tried a decrease to 1.75U a couple of days ago and #'s were still high.
 
Hi Shannon,
We're going to figure this cat out... I didn't have a chance to say the increase makes sense before you did it, but I do think it's worth a try. So we'll see how it goes. :smile:
Carl
 
+3.75 is 464 roughly same as +1 and he has eaten roughly 2.5oz wellness turkey. He is playing. Brought toys in the living room while we went out for a bite to eat. No ketones and no weight loss. If my adult scales are correct, he gained .5lb. Hoping for better numbers later this evening.
 
Took a risk and had a good night. Below 300 this am. Little guy went green... 61 @ +5.5, was home so fed to calm down Mr. Liver. 90 @ +6 and 99 @ +6.5. He is sleeping comfortably. Will let him rest. He deserves it. We'll see what happens at pms. cat_pet_icon
 
Wow. Looks like you were in the right place at the right time and handled things perfectly. If you convince him not to bounce that would be awesome to see:-)
Great job, Shannon.
Carl
 
Nice amps and nadir numbers. Hope we won't see a bounce, but don't be surprised. I am thinking you should figure it's a bounce and shoot lower. It looked like the blacks in the previous cycle needed the 2.5 (they didn't seem to be bounce but a high flat cycle) But a high number now would definitely seem like a bounce from greens he hasn't seen. And generally, we say don't shoot the bounce with a higher dose - instead reduce. The thinking is if the high number is a bounce from the low midcycle numbers and you shoot a high dose (like the 2.5), he could go down lower than we would like in the next cycle. I know it is a difficult concept, but our thinking is to always keep him safe.

If you can, post before shooting tonight and get some input. Hopefully Carl and others will chime in. The easiest thing for us would be if he doesn't bounce.......
 
Shannan,
It looks like shots are given around 5:00 eastern? I should be near a computer then.
Carl
 
We definitely have bounce here. Little guy slept through normal +7.5 meal. Tested a few minutes ago and +10.5 BG is 534. He isn't ravenous or thirsty like usual when high. He seems to just want to sleep. Maybe he has a hangover after his St. Patty's party!!

Thoughts? I give riskly gave him 2.5U last night and 2U this am.
 
Because it's a bounce, you're supposed to try to ignore it... I think I would stick with the 2.0 at pmps.
Carl
 
I guess I just ask too much of him ... The 2U will not be a problem. Thank you for all the help. I am just anxious.
 
What type reaction do you think I will get tonight? Crossing fingers for some leveling out. These 500+ numbers are stressing me out.
 
I like the 2 units. This will be one of the those places in your spreadsheet that you come back to check. He went down to a green and bounced up to the 500s. Then you gave 2 units and got ______. That will give you good data for the next time it happens and you'll have a better idea of how to dose.

Yes, the blacks are awful, but don't forget to celebrate that green!
 
Trying to keep chin-up. It just gets a bit discouraging. Little dude is really showing the after party smash down today. Lots, lots, of sleeping. Last night and early this am he was trying to be Tarzan... Bring on the Friday festivities ohmygod_smile
 
So maybe next time, with a bounce, you plan to monitor and be a little more agressive - maybe the 2.25. The other thing to try to figure out is how long he reacts to a low number - one cycle or more? Looks like it was 2 preshots in this case. Interesting how far down he has already come this cycle- from black preshot to yellow nadir.

Frustrating but generally improving.....
 
Made an adjustment in his food schedule. Changed the quantity to be weighted more at +1.5 and +4.5. Didn't get the same lows but did not get the bounces either. Any thoughts on fine tuning this? Is this a logical response? He is eating Wellness Turkey. Still roughly 12lbs.
 
Shannan,
Looks like the adjustment to the feeding schedule did what you wanted it to do...stopped the steep and deep drops and avoided the bounces. If you stick with that, and see a repeating pattern, it may enable you to up the dose slightly and bring all the numbers down together. I'd try it for three or four more cycles to see if it repeats.
We usually advise against a "chaser" shot after a suspected fur shot like you did tonite. But it's done, so.... in the morning, try to get a +11 and the normal AMPS. You want to make sure he's rising and not falling from the extra dose four hours after the first one. You might get a late nadir on this cycle, or you might see him stay lower longer if the doses piggieback each other.
Carl
 
Because he was so high and using the data from the previous .75U which didn't last but maybe 9 hours prior I went ahead. I tested at regular intervals. Below are the #'s based on normal ps with the .75U given at +3.

+5 = 500
+6 = 453
+9 = 465
+amps = 554

I think I made it through. No fur shot this am!! Whew. Thank you!! I will look up more on "CHASER'. Still learning.
 
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