6/26 Merlin AMPS 398,+5/255,+7/249,+9/330 PMPS 352,+4/307

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Merlin

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Yesterday

6/26
AMPS 398; 8u

Well this is Merlin's 8th cycle of .8u. Should I give him a couple more days of .8u? He might be still adjusting. What do you think about giving him 1u in the evening (because he typically runs high) and .8u in the morning (when he typically goes lower)? Any other suggestions?

Generally, he is feeling good. Appetite is good. He is sneezing less and has less nasal discharge so I think he is feeling better there.
 
Re: 6/26 Merlin AMPS 398

I just don't know, Cindi. He doesn't look any worse at .8 than he did at one unit. Preshots a little too high, but decent drops - just not into greens. I think I'd be tempted to try .6 for a couple cycles. If you see higher numbers, then back up. I just keep thinking he needs less, not more, but it's just a gut feeling.

It is so hard to decide when you can't figure whether they need more or less. Maybe send Jen a PM. She sees different things than I do sometimes.
 
Re: 6/26 Merlin AMPS 398

Hi Cindi!

I just saw Sue's post here :smile: , so I'll give you my thoughts for what they're worth...

He did hit a green nadir with the 0.8 on a pre-shot in the 200's and on 6/24 on the PM cycle, I'd be willing to bet he hit greens after the 124 at +5.

I was initially going to suggest that it looks like he's trending a bit higher at the 0.8 than he was at the 1.0, but it is awfully tempting to see what happens at 0.6.

I do think that based on the 7 or so shots at 0.8, that dose appears to be good for pre-shots in the 200's. It's a little tougher to tell with the pre-shots in the 300+ range. The PM cycle on 6/24 looks like the 0.8 probably got him into greens as well.

So, I think you *could* do something like 0.8 for pre-shots in the 200 range, and go back to 1 or maybe even 0.9 if you can eyeball it for the higher pre-shot ranges. On the other hand, it's entirely possible that he may continue to get good nadirs at a lower dose. Like Sue said, you can always try 0.6 for 6 or so cycles, and see what it looks like. If he's trending higher, you can take him back up pretty quickly.

Another thing you could try is feeding a slightly higher carb and front loading to slow his drop down some. In theory, if you can flatten his curve using food to steer him some, and to possibly prop up the nadirs a bit, you can get more insulin in, which may help keep the bounces from blasting off towards the end of a cycle. Merlin is such a diver that it's really hard to break that bounce cycle, when he drops really fast off a high pre-shot, which just starts the bounce all over again. He seems to start dropping often times by +3 or +4, so if you can figure out when in the cycle he's going to really start to drop off, you can slow that drop by feeding. Steering with food is a lot of trial and error. For example, what I found when trying this with Eddie recently, is that if he was really on a mission and dropping fast, it took carbs somewhere in the 12% range to get him to slow down - his regular <10% carb foods would not slow his drops. On the other hand, some kitties respond to a slightly higher low carb - like in the 8-9% range if their regular food is a lower carb. That's definitely something you've just got to try out and see what happens.

In the bigger scheme of things, I think he may not be getting enough duration. I think if you can nail down the lowest dose that will get nadirs in the safe green range, you can try "as needed" dosing rather than 12/12. I don't think he necessarily needs TID, but shooting as soon as you're catching him on the rise, rather than waiting until he's in the 300's at pre-shot. On Pro-Zinc, I did this with Eddie - sometimes he'd have a long cycle, and I'd shoot at +14, but if he was rising early, and assuming I was home, I'd shoot as early as +9 or +10. I learned the hard way that you do have to be careful about shooting early on a flat cycle...those are often bounce clearing cycles, and an early shot can result in a much faster, lower drop than you're expecting.

What are you thinking, Cindi?
 
Re: 6/26 Merlin AMPS 398

You always have fresh eyes, Jen. Thanks! Always appreciate your joining the conversation. I like the food idea. If we could get a lower number am or pm, it might be tempting to try a 11/13 schedule.
 
Re: 6/26 Merlin AMPS 398,+5/255

Oh you gave me so much to think about. Thank you so much.

I thought about even a 11/11 schedule thinking that could reduce his bouncing but I am not a familiar with the insulin to know if that would be feasible. Probably raises havoc on your own schedule. I would be somewhat afraid of missing "low" numbers in those early morning hours. So with the 11/13 schedule, do you shoot at +11 when he is just about to hit 300? Then if they stay in 200's, you wait for +13 to shoot otherwise you shoot at +11 again? I am not sure how that would work or when you would shoot a +11 or +13.

I would be willing to try a lower dose of .6u. That way we would make sure that this is an option or not and would have tried everything. It is really hard to right now...like today, when he is running so high but I think we should give it a try so we will know if it will work or not. When would be a good time to try it? When he is high or the next time I get a 200 PS number? If it doesn't matter, I can start tomorrow morning.

I also like the idea of a lower dose for the 200's and a fat dose for a higher number. So if the .6u does not work, I would like to try this next.

I have been following Eddie's feeding regiment and I can see how it is working with him. What is the carb count that you would think would slow down his drop? Would you suggest feeding a higher carb after a shot for the first couple of hours? This I could try at the same time as I change the dose, or do you think I should hold off on this change i.e. one change at a time. I will also need to make sure that the Phos DM is 1% close to it.

Thanks again for all the suggestions. Let me know if I missed anything.

6/26
AMPS 398; .8u
+5 - 255

Thanks for all these suggestions. So I think I would like to try first the lower dose (.6u).
 
Re: 6/26 Merlin AMPS 398,+5/255

I think I'd start the .6 at the next shot and if things don't improve, go right back up. I like the varying dose too, but wonder if he seem to do better on a stable dose - he seems to take awhile to react to a change. But I think it's definitely an option.

The 11/13 works when one preshot is lower and one is higher. So if the amps is always higher than the pmps, you would shoot the amps early (at +11 to catch him at a lower number) and then shoot the next shot 13 hours later. (assuming that the pmps is a lower number). It works great when the two preshots are quite a bit different. His aren't exactly in that range. It's be like if consistently he was in the 300s for amps and the 200s pmps.

The frustration and the beauty of ProZinc is that it is adaptable and that you can make changes fast and try different things. But you can't be sure which change will be the right one. confused_cat
 
Re: 6/26 Merlin AMPS 398,+5/255,+7/249

6/26
AMPS 398; .8u
+5 - 255
+7 - 249
+9 - 330
PMPS 352; .6u **Update

I will start the .6u tonight...the sooner the better.

Regarding the 11/13 schedule, I looked at his SS. To determine which PS is predominately is higher I checked all the data since I changed to the human meter which was on April 14. Since then, I had 48 AMPS that were higher as opposed to 23 PMPS that were higher. So with that information i.e. AMPS are more higher, then that would mean that I would shoot at 6am and then shoot at 7pm? Would I just use that schedule?

What is the carb count should I feed that will help slow down his drops? Currently I feed him:

Friskies Special DietT&G P (37) C(5) Phos DM (.8) - this is what he gets 75% of the time.
Merrick BG 96% Turkey P (31) C(2) Phos DM (.95)
Merrick BG 96% Beef P (41) C (1) Phos DM (.79)
Weruva Steak Frites P (45) C (5) Phos DM (.57)
Weruva Paw Lickin' Chickin P (65) C (3) Phos DM (.82)
Wellness Turkey P (31) C (4) Phos DM (1.04)
 
Re: 6/26 Merlin AMPS 398,+5/255,+7/249,+9/330 PMPS 352

Hi Cindi,

I like your's and Sue's idea of trying the 0.6 to see what that looks like. I'd do one change at a time so you can figure out which variable is making a difference.

With regards to the 11/13, I'm thinking that probably works better when a kitty pretty consistently has one "good" pre-shot and one "bad" pre-shot. I'm thinking Merlin's PS's are all (mostly) higher than you'd like to see. I'm thinking that experimenting with trying to shoot either as needed (sort of akin to "tight regulation" version of PZI but more conservative), or on a different schedule, should probably wait till you've nailed down the smallest possible dose that will get Merlin into greens at nadir.

I'd hold off on food manipulation for a little bit yet too, just to get a feel for what the 0.6 will do first. If it looks like he's going to do OK on the 0.6, you might want to start experimenting with trying to slow Merlin's drops. Ultimately, you may be able to shoot a higher dose if you flatten him out some with food. In terms of carb levels, it looks like the highest you've got in the rotation right now is about 5%. There's some line of thinking that anything in the "low carb" range is pretty much all the same whether it's 0% or whether it's 5%, since there is variation from batch-to-batch, etc. I think it also sort of depends on how carb sensitive a cat is. Food management really is an ECID thing. To figure out a starting point, you might just try the 5% to start with, and see if that's enough to slow him down. If not, you might try something a bit higher, like in the 8% range, and if that doesn't cut it, maybe something in the 10% range. Cats can even respond differently to different brands of food that are the same carb level. For example, with Eddie, I try to avoid foods with grains, glutens, etc., as part of his main diet. For slowing him down when he's dropping like a rock, I actually have had good luck with Fancy Feast Medley's which has greens and other junk. I know Marje's Gracie also seems to slow down a bit better with a food that contains grains. If I recall correctly, I think Marje uses a 13% or a 10% to slow Gracie down when she's dropping. Elise and Max in LL are also doing food manipulation, and she's basically mixing HC and LC to create a medium carb to help slow his drops. With food manipulation, you're really focused on the first part of the cycle, and slowing the momentum of the drop with food. For Eddie, I had to use higher carb levels earlier in the cycle, and then as he approached nadir and the rate of his drop slowed, a lower carb food worked to keep him "surfing." Once he was at nadir (unless he was going below 50), usually small amounts of lowish carb food kept him nice and steady.

While you're experimenting with the 0.6 it might be a good opportunity for data gathering, to get a handle on how big of a food spike Merlin gets after eating (around a +1 test), when he onsets (probably around +2 to +3), when he typically drops fastest (maybe in the +3 - +5 range?), how long he surfs (usually till about +7 or or +8 so possibly?) and when the insulin seems to go kaput and he starts a definite rise (seems like he's often well on his way by about +10 or so). You don't have to get all of these tests in every day, but gathering this data will help guide when to intervene with food, and also hopefully give you an idea as to the action of the insulin for purposes of developing a shooting schedule that works with Merlin's typical cycles.
 
Re: 6/26 Merlin AMPS 398,+5/255,+7/249,+9/330 PMPS 352,+4/30

6/26
AMPS 398; .8u
+5 - 255
+7 - 249
+9 - 330
PMPS 352; .6u
+4 - 307

Thanks for the explanation. I will hold off on any changes until I get a few .6u cycles in. Also will plan on getting some early test numbers registered. Thanks again...Good night all.
 
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